Divisive Guns

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Yaworski said:
The only time that I've had a 1911 malfunction was when I bought some really cheap mags. However, none of mine are fancy custom jobs. All are pretty much box stock, I've replaced the sear spring on a couple to reduce pull weight.

On the other hand, my wonderous Glock 17 broke during the first box of ammo. I sold it and will never buy another.


LEO's of all varieties would show up at my club's various matches. All made it known that they were police officers and thereby gun experts who were going to show us silly mortals a thing or two. Most shot very poorly and were never seen again.
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If you'd like an education find a training venue which specializes in the 1911 type handgun. Watch the line as the shooters go through their drills and count the malfunctions you see. Do the same with a line of shooters firing Glock models. Such a contrast would offer up an epiphany of insight into the relative reliability of the two models of pistol.

I've owned around ten various model Glocks. Mostly 17s, 19s, a 23 and a 43X and a 48. All have been boringly reliable. I did purchase a Glock 36 (.45 ACP) many years ago. As I was chief of police I ordered an assortment of .45 ammo to put through the pistol. Nothing, and I mean nothing, would get that model 36 to fire without a malfunction. Went back and forth to Glock several times. No joy. Finally Glock gave up and sent me a Glock 23, which has run flawlessly. Go figure.

Rich
 
Yaworski said:
Twelve books? When did you find time to do cop stuff?
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That's exactly what my bosses said!!!!!!!!

My books:

The Murder of Old Comrades (a novel)
Sky Cops (I flew helicopters when in the NYPD, Bell 206B and UH-1B/Huey on floats.
I was but a child then...)
K-9 Cops (working police dogs)
Rookie Cop, Deep Undercover in the JDL
(Jewish Defense League)
Practical Handgun Training (you guys know about this one already!)
Self-Publishing~Simplified!
Louie D. Pussycat~His Friends and Their Adventures
(a children's book about Louie, Wellfleet's most famous cat!!)
Nogales, Sasabe, Lochiel~ Part of our Third Nation (the AZ border)
Use of Force in Modern Policing (All about policing written for both people in and out of law enforcement)
Groundhog Day... (The documented rise/fall/rise/fall of human civilizations over the millennia)
Electric Vehicles~What About Them?!?
Reincarnation & the Near Death Experience~A Secular View (A well documented book on the subject)
The Death of Nations (Why all cosmopolitan nations are losing their populations)
 
Guns are a lot like women and men have different tastes. For example: I have a friend who likes big girls, I prefer a little on the thinner side. He also likes them younger (third and current wife is tad over half his age), I prefer older, at least my age. Same thing with guns. I will never own a Desert Eagle .50, too flashy. However, there are some (imho insecure) individuals who have to show off.
 
RichCapeCod said:
If you'd like an education find a training venue which specializes in the 1911 type handgun.
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What I watch is what happens at matches. The guys with the box stock 1911s don't have malfunctions and the guy with the cool modded gun has the malfunctions.

A few years back I bought a Tisas 1911. One day one, I ran 200 rounds through it without a hiccup. In the late 80s, I bought a Glock 17 and it broke around round 20. Also, the Glock has a horrible trigger. I have five 1911s and no Glocks.
 
Jeepnik said:
As Blume said, until you have to, you don't know how you'll perform. And guess what, past performance is no guarantee of future ability.
How many times have we heard someone say they were having an"off" day, at the range, to explain poor shooting. We can't be sure we won't have an off day when things get real.
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I don't know so much about that....I knew weeks in advance that I was going to shoot the first guy I ever shot, I just didn't know exactly who he was or where is was, yet. As soon as he came in on me one night though, I hit him dead-center with a load of 3" number 4 rabbit shot, just like I knew I was going to. That was close to 55 years ago. I've had to shoot another since, and years later, ran one over with my patrol car whom was shooting at me.....My point is that it is quite possible for a man to know exactly what he's going to do ahead of time. And, once it's done, do it again if/when necessary.....
Just sayin' that I don't know where You and Blume got your information, but it does not apply to all of us, because we ain't all the same. Not by a long shot.

DGW
 
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The question may be, "How many times have you actually had to pull a gun in a defensive situation? For me, once was more than enough and thankfully I didn't' have to shoot. Strangely enough this was back when all the "eggspurts" in the gun rags were touting the 9MM. I'd picked up an S&W 6906 as it felt pretty good on y hand. I got into a bit of a problem with some loony tunes who thought I was the ex-mayor and apparently had a serious beef with him. I was getting gas for my wife's car and he followed me into the store when I paid for the gas and back to the car. My wife was with me at the time and he starts pounding on the car wanting me to get out and fight. BTW, he had a baseball sized club. He came close to hitting me with it when I was out of the car. I showed him the 9MM and said something like go away or I'll shoot you After yelling that several time times it soaked in that I meant what I said and he backed off and left.
Two very interesting things came of this. First, my wife said she'd never complain about me having a gun handy and two, a few years later that ex-mayor of Tucson passed away and there was a big front page spread with his picture. I can see now why that loony tunes thought I was him as we looked like identical twins.

I still have that 6906 but it sits in the safe and the Commander has taken its place. I hope I never have to be in a situation like that ever again.
Paul B.
 
Paul B said:
... . I got into a bit of a problem with some loony tunes who thought I was the ex-mayor and apparently had a serious beef with him. I was getting gas for my wife's car and he followed me into the store when I paid for the gas and back to the car. My wife was with me at the time and he starts pounding on the car wanting me to get out and fight. BTW, he had a baseball sized club. He came close to hitting me with it when I was out of the car. I showed him the 9MM and said something like go away or I'll shoot you After yelling that several time times it soaked in that I meant what I said and he backed off and left. ...
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Paul you were quite fortunate. Even if you are correct the use of deadly force will embroil you in our legal justice system which, in point of fact, holds little justice in a situation as you described. Even if you would have been 100% correct in the use of deadly force you would have faced a legal bill of around $50K dollars. Really.

I teach people that if they can do so safely, when facing a deadly physical force threat, is to BREAK CONTACT. You just don't want to become involved in our legal system.

Rich

PS
The one time I had to use deadly force, a 100% justified shooting, the complainant who called me to the scene to save her child's life (which I did) sued me for $6,000,000 dollars. She lost, but the process took around six months of lawyer and court time (federal violation of civil rights stuff) to resolve in my favor.
 
I'd agree with Blume. It doesn't seem logical to consider a 1911 less safe than a Glock. I would consider a production grade 1911 & a Glock equally safe. It all really comes down to who is holding either one of them. The only 1911 I have owned is the SR 1911. The only issue I had was getting dinged with brass from the ejection port when it was new. I did some research, asked some questions, learned how to tension an extractor & it has run fine since.
A guy I used to hunt with sometimes had a Glock I would not have carried. He had someone work over the trigger. He let me shoot it at camp. It was cool watching the water bottles explode when I thought about pulling the trigger but not something I would really want. It was his every day carry.
 
RichCapeCod said:
Even if you would have been 100% correct in the use of deadly force you would have faced a legal bill of around $50K dollars. Really.
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That pretty well throws the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" out the window.
To me, "innocent" means you are not punished. If you have to pay a Lawyer 50K, you are being punished.
 
mirglip said:
That pretty well throws the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" out the window.
To me, "innocent" means you are not punished. If you have to pay a Lawyer 50K, you are being punished.
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In NY STATE, you MUST RETREAT, by law. If you shoot a home invader, IN YOUR HOME, in the middle of the night (or any other time), you will be prosecuted. It will be your burden to prove that you were not able to escape (and that will cost a lot more than $50K). Needless to say, this particular law does not pertain to criminals.
SADLY,
J.
 
Johnnu2 said:
In NY STATE, you MUST RETREAT, by law. If you shoot a home invader, IN YOUR HOME, in the middle of the night (or any other time), you will be prosecuted. It will be your burden to prove that you were not able to escape (and that will cost a lot more than $50K). Needless to say, this particular law does not pertain to criminals.
SADLY,
J.
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MS has a couple words sprinkled around in various laws: "Initial Aggressor". If you're not that guy, you're home free. In your example the home (or any other location you happen to be in) invader by definition is the initial aggressor - fire away.
 
Man, you guys are getting all bogged down in NY State defense laws (I used to teach this stuff).

2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person
under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:
(a) The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or
about to use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the
actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that with
complete personal safety, to oneself and others he or she may avoid the
necessity of so doing by retreating; except that the actor is under no
duty to retreat if he or she is:
(i) in his or her dwelling and not the initial aggressor; or
********​
Here's the entire section of law. Knock yourselves out!
https://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article35.php#p35.00

Rich
 
Johnnu2 said:
In NY STATE, you MUST RETREAT, by law. If you shoot a home invader, IN YOUR HOME, in the middle of the night (or any other time), you will be prosecuted. It will be your burden to prove that you were not able to escape (and that will cost a lot more than $50K). Needless to say, this particular law does not pertain to criminals.
SADLY,
J.
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Not in New Jersey. The one thing they got right. Our version of the Castle Dominion law says we have a duty to attempt to retreat OUTSIDE, but that we have NO duty to retreat in home OR connected structures such as a porch, which is considered part of the home. In your home it is your right (again, in NJ) to protect against perceived life threatening danger. There will still be paperwork to fill out, but that is it.
 
RichCapeCod said:
Man, you guys are getting all bogged down in NY State defense laws (I used to teach this stuff).

2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person
under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:
(a) The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or
about to use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the
actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that with
complete personal safety, to oneself and others he or she may avoid the
necessity of so doing by retreating; except that the actor is under no
duty to retreat if he or she is:
(i) in his or her dwelling and not the initial aggressor; or
********​
Here's the entire section of law. Knock yourselves out!
https://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article35.php#p35.00

Rich
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Rich, this clearly NOT what they specifically taught us in the training classes that were mandated for every CCW holder as of the new NYS laws. I was in one of the first batch of classes in 2023. I did ask several clarifying questions in class that was taught by LEO's and a consultant with a recently APPROVED NYS curriculum based on recent changes in the law. Despite all interpretations, my bet is that, if you are NOT a criminal, you will be prosecuted and most likely lose. I hope I'm wrong and you are correct; and that I will never have to find out thru (costly $$$$$$) experience.
J.
 
I own 3 keltecs..... they work.... killed porcupines with the P11.. (it's what I had on me)...... my P32 goes along into town.... the P17 is lightweight, fun and accurate...
I also have Taurus firearms.... I couldn't afford a beretta..... but it is accurate and it's never malfunctioned.... I carried it a bunch, and I can carry it cocked locked and ready to rock....
 
Frankly with the state of law enforcement here you'd probably be better off just walking away from a shooting and let the cops figure it out. Odds that they will find you are slim to none. Heck, they probably won't do much more than file some sort of initial report then go back to their donuts.
 
Jeepnik said:
Frankly with the state of law enforcement here you'd probably be better off just walking away from a shooting and let the cops figure it out. Odds that they will find you are slim to none. Heck, they probably won't do much more than file some sort of initial report then go back to their donuts.
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You raise a good point. Knowing the consequences, even for a totally justified self defense shooting, can make the idea of just slipping away unnoticed (if that is really the case) look pretty good compared to calling 911. Maybe if later identified and arrested, a person could use as their defense the story that while the shooting was justified, the shooter knew that he would be bankrupted by legal costs if he reported such to the police and that he was hoping to avoid that situation.
 
Jeepnik said:
Frankly with the state of law enforcement here you'd probably be better off just walking away from a shooting and let the cops figure it out. Odds that they will find you are slim to none. Heck, they probably won't do much more than file some sort of initial report then go back to their donuts.
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Too many cameras out these days. You "walk away" from a shooting and it's an indication of guilt. Just sayin'...


Rich
 
RichCapeCod said:
Too many cameras out these days. You "walk away" from a shooting and it's an indication of guilt. Just sayin'...


Rich
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And that's the view from law enforcement that causes folks to walk away. The courts may, supposedly, treat you as innocent until proven guilty. But law enforcement always treats victims as guilty suspects until proven innocent.
 
Jeepnik said:
And that's the view from law enforcement that causes folks to walk away. The courts may, supposedly, treat you as innocent until proven guilty. But law enforcement always treats victims as guilty suspects until proven innocent.
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"But law enforcement always treats victims as guilty suspects until proven innocent."

They also lie like hell. My neighbor was involved in and incident with sme punks trying to steal anothr neigbor's mercedes. As there were five perps he armed himself and went to investigate while his wife did the 911 bit. Turned out it was a bunch of punk kid trying to steal whatever they could find in the car. He gave them a bit of an ass chewing and ran them off.
When the deputies finally showed up the one had no idea how to charge him, asked for his gun, he gave them one and they left. About six months later two detectives came and arrested him for five counts of aggravated assault with a firearm. In the meantime they apparently coached some of the kids and one was a nine year old girl who my neighbor said wasn't even there. She was put up as a firearms expert and described the gun as a 9MM Walther P38. Funny thing is he detests the P38 and anything else in 9MM.
Naturally he had to hire a lawyer. $5,000 for him just to show up. When he said he wanted to fight the charges the lawyer told him $100,000 up front and possibly more before the trial was over and done. And you wonder why so many victims plea out. He got lucky. He was facing five charges, each with a maximum 20 years and the kids parents were pushing to have them served one at a time, back to back. He pled out and the judge gave him one year supervised probation and community service. He completed that and he was then give six months propbartion. At the end, his lawyer asked the court to resume his civil rights which he did and I got my shooting buddy back. He passed a few yeas back and was never the same. Innocent unitl proven guilty? BULLSHIT! No way he'd ever believe that after all that went down.
Paul B.
 
Paul B said:
"But law enforcement always treats victims as guilty suspects until proven innocent."

They also lie like hell. My neighbor was involved in and incident with sme punks trying to steal anothr neigbor's mercedes. As there were five perps he armed himself and went to investigate while his wife did the 911 bit. Turned out it was a bunch of punk kid trying to steal whatever they could find in the car. He gave them a bit of an ass chewing and ran them off.
...
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Without having more info it would appear your neighbor tried to intervene in a larceny while armed with (and showing) a handgun. This is not legally justified in any jurisdiction that I am aware of. Just a guess as I suspect this is a more complex story than we all know.

Rich
 
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