Dealership repairs/ flat rate

[mirglip]

I can only point out how a system is structured and my observations of human nature, and how the two interface. Certainly if the individuals involved have personal integrity or their bosses enforce their own integrity on them, the flat rate system will work fine. But in such cases just about any system or no system would probably work fine, which is why I think you give the flat rate system too much credibility. It seems I'm a bit more cynical than you. Again, reputation is everything.
Accept nothing at face value.

 

[Dan in MI]

In the 70's I worked as a mechanic on commission for a while myself and I saw what was going on.

The bold part is all I need to see. Yes, in the 70's auto repair was more crooked than legitimate. I started in the late 70's and saw the crooks getting weeded out by the dozen. Laws were changed old parts required returning, etc, the upsell to a fake wash as you described was chased out of the business for the most part. By the early/mid 80's the major crooks were gone. Yes, there are still some, but they don't last long.

The leaving out time consuming steps.... Yup, time consuming, not quality affecting. I'll give two examples.

Mid 80's Taurus heater core. Whoever wrote the shop manual did it by computer not actual work. You have to remove the whole dash panel. The directions have you removing all the attaching screws at the top. Then you drop the steering column and other under neath parts that stay in the car before pulling out the whole dash. The LAST step after dropping everything from the glass to the floor of the vehicle? Remove the five or six screws that attach the bottom of the dash to the firewall. Screws you cannot even see or touch at this point. To remove them requires two more guys to hold up the dash while you crawl under to get them out. If you pull these screws first, you can do it in less than a minute rather than 45 minutes with 3 guys.

A recall for fuel system issues. You have to work on top and under the truck in multiple places. Following the directions you run the vehicle up and down on the hoist about 6 times in each direction. If you plan ahead and do all of the upper work, then the lower work you take an 8.5 hours job down to about 5. My best guess as to why it was written this way is each subsystem repair was written by the specialist for that subsystem. Then another guy compiled all of the repairs into one single list of directions, not looking at how each was done.


The other side of flat rate no one seems to know, or care, about is if it rakes longer. If the book rate is 3.6 hours and if something happens that it takes the mechanic 6 hours to complete guess what? He gets 3.6 hours pay for 6 hours labor.

Another part nobody knows about is backflags. GG and I have hinted at these. (This may have been part of the 80's clean up too) You "fix" a car and it comes back not fixed (comeback) you generally get to work on it for free. If the customer gets a refund because he took it somewhere else you get "backflagged". That means you get a negative flat rate fee put on paycheck. IOW you get a deduction for that work you performed poorly. There are many reason for backflags, all related to work performed poorly, or incorrectly, and not just tied to refunds. That was just an easy way to describe them.

Knowledge and experience can make flat rate profitable for the mechanic. Not through "cheating" but experience and skill. It can also be the worst way to get paid. There are two ways off the top of my head. Poor, or basic skills, you don't get the job done equal or under the book time. That will correct over time, one way or another. Or, and this one really stinks. For whatever reason, Holidays, vacations, poor economy, local big employer closes, etc... very few customers come in the shop. Now you have ten mechanics all facing a Friday with10-15 hours pay coming. (not 40+) Each wants to feed his family and each wants every job that comes in the door, but there just isn't enough work that week, or month. Times can get lean at no fault of your own.

 

[Xrayist]

IMO, flat rate is just a way to increase profits...a lot! Look at it this way; you are quoted a flat rate based on the number of hours that it is supposed to take to do the job. Now, if you have a really good mechanic, they may be able to do the job in half the time that the rate chart says it should take. Simple math; say the job is supposed to take 3 hrs @ $100 per hour. The mechanic does it in 2 hrs. You still get charged the $300, and the mechanic can start another job, say the same job. If you do four of those jobs in a day, it covers an 8 hour shift. If based on the hourly rate, it would be a $800 dollar day. At the flat rate pricing you add another $400 to your day.

 

[Kevin]

I think I'm going to take the side of Dan In MI and GasGuzzler.
Lots of "if's" in your post. If the dealership has good mechanics, I hope they get paid more. "If" they do four jobs in a day.... I hope they have a better waiting area for the customers, you know, a nice coffee machine and snacks. Free car washes whenever I stop in. That sort of thing. Free loaner cars.

I used to have a RAM truck. The dealership did NOT have a nice waiting room. They did NOT have loaner cars, or even wash the cars for customers. Note, I said used to drive this truck.

I read this thread, and see everyone piling on the flat rate system. I don't see anyone offering alternatives. If the alternative is an hourly charge, well, does the customer pay for smoke breaks when the mechanic goes out back? Then there is the thought of the mechanic fudging the time. Just a bit. 15 minutes here and there. That could add up in a day also. 15 or 20 minutes extra per job, that's an extra hour on the 4 jobs per day.

My brother took his truck to one of those quick change oil places once. It fell off the lift. Yet another reason never would I ever go to one of those places.

 

[Yaworski]

Then there is the thought of the mechanic fudging the time. Just a bit. 15 minutes here and there. That could add up in a day also. 15 or 20 minutes extra per job, that's an extra hour on the 4 jobs per day.

I have a friend who used to be a paralegal. She was expected to bill at least 80 hours a week. A 30 second phone call was billed for 15 minutes.

 

[Kevin]

I have a friend who used to be a paralegal. She was expected to bill at least 80 hours a week. A 30 second phone call was billed for 15 minutes.

There is the accounting joke. An accountant interviewed for a job. The question was “what is 2+2”

The accountant answers, “what do you want it to be.”

 

[brianjohn]

Some mechanics charge crazy amounts but there's plenty good ones that are fair priced, and I'm thankful I have one and treat him well, it's the big dealerships that are straight-up crooks.

This was last month…I've been putting off getting a few things fixed due to lack of time but I got a recall notice on the digital screen to be replaced so I went up to the bmw dealership to have it changed. While there I mentioned there were a couple other things that are going on…the front passenger door lock actuator went out about a week ago, the ac blower motor sometimes will make a slight squeak when it's super cold in winter, the driver's side air vent is broken and doesn't fully move in all directions properly. They changed the recalled screen and this was the estimate for fixing the things I mentioned:

Door lock actuator: $1037.50
AC blower motor: $924.62
Air vent: $186.31
Total: $2,148.43

No way I was paying that so I asked my neighbor if he'd be interested in doing it. He's in his early 20s and him and his friends are always working on vehicles, nice kid and smart. I told him I'd buy the parts and he gave me a price of $100 to do the work. I said, how about $150, he laughed and agreed. Took him less than 2 hrs to do it all, I gave him $200 and 100 rds of Win 9mm target ammo. Here's what I paid for the parts brand new and the total to have them installed:

Door lock actuator: $36.89
AC blower motor: $35.88
Air vent: $27.79
Total: 100.56 for parts + $230 or so for labor = $330…a difference of over $1800!

(Yes it's bmw but that's still absolutely ridiculous and other manufactures aren't too much better.)

Moral of the story: If you don't already know it, out-of-warranty dealership work is often essentially robbery!

 

[Dan in MI]

Basic rules (not gospel)
Warranty - go to the dealer.
Cash - find a good mechanic. (high dollar or import -specialty shop)

Yet more flat rate info.

Dealers do charge more for "customer pay." They have two books. There is the warranty book defined by the manufacturer and a customer pay book. (non dealers have customer pay books, generally the same one)


Warranty rates generally barely cover the actual time. The time studies are done on shiny new cars with no dirt, mud, rust, etc. They study is done after the test mechanic has done the repair about ten times. Then they run the clock a few times and take the average. They also don't cover the complete repair. Once again this is up to the mechanic. Example -A wiring repair pays .3 hours (3 tenths) If you don't record every step taken to get there you lose. Say to find this wiring issue you have to remove the seat, pull up the carpet and trace it to a short somewhere under the carpet. If you don't write R&R seat R&R carpet on the work order, as well as repair wiring. You will get .3 versus probably 1.3 (.5 seat .5 carpet, .3 wiring) So you can either get time for the work required or shorted. Now you may have a good guy writing the warranty claim that will add these for you or ask about the repair, or you may not and he writes what you said. OR he's mad a you or doesn't like you and writes the bare minimum. This applies to many repairs, there is final fix, and the work to get there. You need to make sure you have both covered. Each step has a rate and you need to record each step or get shorted. An often used quote when I was at the dealership. "your pen is the most important tool in your box."

Cash - the rates are usually about 1.5 to 2x the warranty rate. This covers any vehicle from a clean show car car to the rusted beat up version of the same year. The cash rates also are a little more realistic in regard to the actual job and don't require as much penmanship to get paid for the job.

 

[GasGuzzler]

CP is 1.4X warranty if the CP LTG doesn't have a time for the operation. I explained earlier why.

Kevin is correct, there has not been a viable alternative to the flat system suggested yet.

Door lock actuator: $1037.50
AC blower motor: $924.62
Air vent: $186.31
Total: $2,148.43

Moral of the story: If you don't already know it, out-of-warranty dealership work is often essentially robbery!

Without context, this is a pile of numbers. You've made it this far in life without realizing a franchise dealer service center has more overhead than a guy down the street? What is your recourse when the guy down the street causes damage, makes a mistake that catches the car on fire, the wheel falls off after repairs, etc.? These things can happen to anyone but what happens next is important. A properly made estimate for repair cannot be robbery as the customer has the choice to pay or not.

 

[brianjohn]

Without context, this is a pile of numbers.

What more context is needed? I took the vehicle in to have some recall work done, they asked if anything else was wrong and I mentioned those few things, then to repair/replace them they quoted those ridiculous prices. Does it really matter the year and make or whatever else is pertinent to generating an exact quote when the basic point I'm making is, for what those specific parts cost and how easy they are to replace it's insane what they charge.

You've made it this far in life without realizing a franchise dealer service center has more overhead than a guy down the street?

I've always known most dealerships charge excessive amounts for out-of-warranty work, most people do, I was just giving a recent real-life example with actual numbers.

What is your recourse when the guy down the street causes damage, makes a mistake that catches the car on fire, the wheel falls off after repairs, etc.?

No recourse, as I'm not expecting much to happen if these particular very minor repairs don't go as planned. We're talking about simple things if you didn't notice, things I can do myself if need be, I only didn't because my time is limited. Not everything done to a vehicle requires a certified mechanic...when you change a light bulb at home do you hire an electrician? Hey, it could start a fire and then what recourse do you have? Now, if it's something more involved like engine/transmission work or even tire replacement for example I'm going to go my mechanic, but that wasn't the case here.

A properly made estimate for repair cannot be robbery as the customer has the choice to pay or not.

Thank you, Mr. Hoyle, you are correct, but I used word "robbery" as a figure of speech (which it is commonly used as) and not in a strict, literal sense lol.

You seem a bit defensive…what dealership do you work at?

 

[GasGuzzler]

First, none of your rant was on topic. Maybe you didn't read the first few pages (or the topic title) but the subject is flat rate pay scales and the +/- of them. Post #38 has the most accurate description of the employee side there is. And it's worth mentioning again that it doesn't matter if a job takes 3X longer than the flat rate time, it's all you get. THIS is why some fail and go to hourly and make less.

Yes, much more data is needed to make the supplied numbers have context. Routine maintenance on a Ferrari can be $15K. A 2020 F350 diesel costs more to maintain than a 1980 F150 with a straight six. Refuting such is silliness and denying context makes most skeptical. The changes made to semantics above are quite childish and you actually just denied that a franchise dealer service department has more overhead than a hobbyist repair "Google it" type guy. Defensive is the incorrect word for someone that just expects truth without deception. In another topic where someone made an extremely bold claim about an inflated estimate (might want to look up the definition of that word) I asked for a receipt. That member never mentioned it again. And it's pretty darn liberal to tell the parts of a story that support a weak argument and not the parts that don't. The local RF.com'ers know where they can visit me. I was performance ranked #5 in my zone in 2024 by the manufacturer.

Expensive doesn't equal crooked, many times just better.

 

[mirglip]

Expensive doesn't equal crooked, many times just better.

Mechanics working on automobiles have to compete with mass production. If a mechanic bought all the parts to a car separately and assembled them himself, like Johnny Cash "One piece at a time", the end result would cost 50 times more than the same mass produced vehicle. So vehicles are a pretty tight market.
This is the reason there are so few good gunsmiths, they have so much more talent than assembly line workers but can't compete with mass production.
Sometimes it's worth paying 30% more to get the job done better, but it's seldom worth paying 400% more to get the job done better, and that is too often the case with dealerships.
Back in 1980 I was wrenching for a pipeline construction company and the boss said there are two kinds of mechanics.
1) The kind that knows one make real well and can fix them quickly because of familiarity.
2) The kind who works on anything and everything and can figure them all out.
#2 requires by far the highest intellect, #1 requires excellent memory and other qualities. In most cases #1 will make the most money. He doesn't really need to be the greatest analyst, he just has to be fast.

Most independent shops are somewhere in between. Most still go by the flat rate. If they work on several different makes of vehicles, they can seldom become as familiar with one make as dealership mechanics are and therefore it usually takes them longer to do a job than a dealership mechanic. This makes it harder for them to compete for work. They compete by trimming the fat. Their business is more dependent on reputation compared to dealers because the dealer gets business by being the dealer and relies on the reputation of the manufacturer.

 

[Slyk Willy]

I've enjoyed my relationship with the dealership that services my Jeep. Very fair all the time.

I do however have a similar story to the brake pads issue.
I asked an MC repair place to take a look at adjusting the carbs in my "67 dual carb motorcycle. When I got the bill it listed an oil and filter change "being necessary to get the carbs sync'd" mmm. I mentioned that the bike didn't even have an oil filter and that it's a Centrifugal filter that needs to be CLEANED never replaced.
After a bit of stuttering on the part of the shop owner, I left with my MC the misrepresented paperwork and paid what I thought was a reasonable charge for the carb sync. ($200) and suggested that he'd be hearing from lawyer AND the state AG.
The shop closed shortly thereafter. No, I never did get the law involved.

 

[txramfan]

I'm too old to work on a vehicle. I use to do basic maintenance , never wanted to rebuild brakes or rebuild anything. My time off was too valuable to me to spend it turning a wrench.

I have no complaints with what a dealer or independent charges for labor. No one forces me to go anywhere.

 

[brianjohn]

First, none of your rant was on topic. Maybe you didn't read the first few pages (or the topic title) but the subject is flat rate pay scales and the +/- of them.

Not really a rant but I can see why you might feel that way as it's a fairly thorough dismantling of your previous response but I digress. And I did read the first few pages and what I added was in fact related to the topic. In the very first post of the thread regarding his experience with the dealership the OP said, "…here's your $100 for the inspection, it was worth it to realize you're crooks," I would say my response explaining my recent experience regarding the exorbitant prices dealerships charge for out-of-warranty work is very much on topic. Flat rate pay scales was a main point of his post but it was only one point, the overriding concept was how high that rate is at dealerships which is what my response was directed at.

Yes, much more data is needed to make the supplied numbers have context. Routine maintenance on a Ferrari can be $15K. A 2020 F350 diesel costs more to maintain than a 1980 F150 with a straight six. Refuting such is silliness and denying context makes most skeptical.

Again, nope, more data isn't needed for the basic point I was making that for what those specific parts cost and how easy they are to replace it's ridiculous what they charge. I previously stated the vehicle in question was both a bmw and just out-of-warranty, if you really do know anything about cars that alone should give you a decent enough idea what might be at least reasonable to charge. I gave those two pieces of information specifically so one could have an idea, as without it an argument for the wild variation in pricing you're referring to for maintaining a Ferrari vs a 1980 F150, for example, could have been made. You being skeptical makes no difference to me but there's only so much info I care to put online.

The changes made to semantics above are quite childish and you actually just denied that a franchise dealer service department has more overhead than a hobbyist repair "Google it" type guy.

Not denying that at all, just using a recent real-life example of how excessively high their prices can get, nothing more, not dissimilar to one of the points the OP made.

Defensive is the incorrect word for someone that just expects truth without deception. In another topic where someone made an extremely bold claim about an inflated estimate (might want to look up the definition of that word) I asked for a receipt.

True, but you sound a bit defensive. My guess is the only thing that will ultimately satisfy you is maybe a copy of the estimate which you're not getting (nor a receipt if I had had the work done). I've got absolutely no reason to make any of this up, but if you're suggesting my claim is really bold and/or feel I might be attempting to be deceptive, I really don't know but wouldn't think it'd be very hard to contact a bmw dealership with the info I gave about the vehicle (could probably pick any bmw just out-of-warranty) and the parts to be replaced and see firsthand how close to my numbers you come. But why should one waste their time doing all that? Rather than spend five minutes researching it (possibly less if they're in fact in the industry), it's probably just easier to suggest they're being deceived by someone who doesn't care for posting too many of their personal details online.

Expensive doesn't equal crooked, many times just better.

Often it does equal better, no debating that, just that it's foolish to pay an unnecessary exorbitant amount for something.

And it's pretty darn liberal to tell the parts of a story that support a weak argument and not the parts that don't.

Interesting you still don't understand what's going on as evidenced by you mentioning that again but, again, all context pertinent to the making of my original point was there from the beginning, but more amusing than that is I think you're the first person to ever refer to anything I've ever done as "liberal." You've definitely got the wrong guy but you're funny

All the best, it's been mildly entertaining but I'm done with this discussion.

 

[Kevin]

I've got a 2022 BMW, bought it brand new, in fact we decided to keep it, so a couple weeks ago I paid $3,300 for two additional years of warranty. The 4 year warranty would have expired Fed 1st of 2026. It needs washed…perhaps tomorrow I’ll swing by the dealer and have some coffee while they wash it.

But that's neither here nor there. The funny thing about BMW is in Bulgaria, it's stereotypical for the gypsies (sorry, Roma people) to drive older BMW's. I'm fairly certain they don't bother with the extended warranties either.

My niece had a boyfriend who had an older, DIESEL, BMW. I really liked it, and him. But the niece dumped him. So I don't get to see the car anymore when we visit.

But he always said his friends made fun of him for driving an older BMW because of the Roma people driving them.

They must work on the cars themselves, because there aren't many BMW dealerships in Bulgaria. Or at least not in the parts of town where the gypsies live. (sorry, Roma people.)

Feel free to file this little fact in the "if you care" bucket.

The boyfriend's car was pretty cool though. Lots of those old German cars are.

 

[bigbillyboy]

Texas abolished State safety inspections for most of the residents but the people that conducted them regularly in inspection only shops are pretty much always crooks. They depend on upsells from inspections to make their money. Inspections in Texas paid the license holder $7 per sticker. So glad they are gone.

I have been following this thread and not all independents are crooks as you seem to be implying ........

 

[bigbillyboy]

My experience with flat rate is at my old local dealer in North Dakota.They charge $90 hour for labor supposedly and a one hour minimum. So you go in for say something simple like a cabin air filter. On my car you just open the glove box unclip 2 clips and pull It out. 5 minutes if you've done it before. If I buy a new one it's under $10 at Walmart Mart. If I have it done at dealer it's $25 for the filter and $90 labor. Or like you said GG maybe they allow 3 hours for an alternator swap. A good mech can do it in an hour. So the faster the mech works the more he makes. Lots of incentive to cheat to get paid more. I want to hire the mechanics at the actual rate it takes to finish the job way cheaper as book time allows way too much. I've dropped off my vehicle at 10:00 picked it up at noon and paid for 3 1/2 to 4 hours labor before. Assuming it took 15 minutes to drive it in and out and for the tech to find the work order and grab the parts, why should I pay so much labor? There are local guys with small shops charging by the hour, I think that's where I will go next time.

Yes , a good reputable independent is still the best bet

 

[dadstillsurfs]

I am a "recovering shadetree mechanic". I'm capable of loads of simple part-swap repairs, brakes, and general maintenance. In my opinion, a reputable independent mechanic is the best!
BUT I recently had a recall performed by my dealer that got the truck a 4 year / 20k mile warranty on the emissions components and labor on a 2013 RAM 2500 Cummins diesel powered pickup. Two months later the engine warning light came on (again). I took it to the dealer and they diagnosed the problem, found that the parts were in their stock. I returned the next morning, and they replaced two EGR sensors and the only service I paid for was an oil change that I requested. The retail cost of the sensors was over $1200 and the posted shop hourly rate is a staggering $220 / hour.
An independent mechanic would have needed a subscription to the FCA system to diagnose the problem. Then he would need to order the parts, then perform the repair.
So there are times when the dealer is cheaper and more efficient.

 

[GasGuzzler]

The liberal media often tells their stories with a third of the pertinent details so they can spin it to their desire. There is no difference with what was written here about prices.

It's funny how one person referred to $90 per hour as high when that was the going rate 10-15 years ago. Now $220? Seems pretty believable in CA.

I have been following this thread and not all independents are crooks as you seem to be implying ........

I implied nothing. I clearly stated that most inspection centered places are crooked because they use the law as leverage to sell wiper blades and brake pads, etc. that may not be needed. I don't have a problem with independent repair shops. I have a couple that buy me a Christmas present every year.

Which labor time guide do you use? We use Mitchell on Demand.