Dealership repairs/ flat rate

[protoolman]

Nothing new but I took my 04 Ram pickup in the other day for an estimate on a steering rack and pinion. I asked if he could tighten up the parking brake cable while he was at it. He came back with an estimate of $2800. Which also said the rear disk break rotors were in really bad shape (warped) and I needed brake shoes too. I looked over the estimate and said" I have 2 questions: 1. Where's the cost for the steering parts? Oops just add $500 that should cover it. So $3300. 2. You can skip brake job, its fine. But sir, we can't really let you drive off with your brakes in such unsafe condition! Me- here's your $100 for the inspection, it was worth it to realize you're crooks. My pickup has Drum Brakes! Before you write up the work order to lie about brake wear next time tell your mechanic to at least remove the wheel and pretend to look! That not even half of what his estimate included but the whole thing was pure bs. Don't get me started on the flat rate. $110 to top off the fluid in the rear end just labor! The truck has a rubber plug you can pull out with your fingers! Flat rate is a rip off to charge triple the hourly rate it takes to actually do anything. And shop supplies $15. Next time I'm just going to hand them a stack of oil rags from home! Restaurant would love to adopt a similar scheme they could charge for ketchup, mustard, straws, napkins and make you tip the cook and dishwasher too!

 

[mirglip]

If you want it done right, do it yourself. The only things I have paid shops to do in the last 30 years is mount tires and do front end alignments. My daily driver has over 320 K miles on it and it runs like new. I have spent way less than $3300 on repairs it's entire life since I bought it new in 2006. Bankers hate me.

 

[Yaworski]

I do as much myself as I can. I don't think that my mechanic is ripping me off but the parts markup can be ridiculous.

 

[sceva]

My SIL got an estimate from PepBoys once to ger an alternator and some other little thing and he asked me to look it over. There was a line item to remove and replace belts 3 or 4 different times in it ( The same belts ) It seems their computer automatically added the charge to anything the you had to remove the belts for. Alternator, remove/replace belts, New belt, remove/replace belts and so on.

Told him to get the parts and we did it ourselves.

 

[protoolman]

I get that things are expensive but dishonesty and flat out lies seem to be widespread in the auto repair industry.

 

[Yaworski]

I get that things are expensive but dishonesty and flat out lies seem to be widespread in the auto repair industry.

One of the mechanics at the shop I used in Maryland told me that when he worked at a Jaguar dealership, a standard practice was to draw on the inside of the distributor cap with a pencil which would cause misfires and higher repair bills.

 

[Jeepnik]

For a short time after the service I worked in a radiator repair shop. If one of the mechanics had pulled any sort of stunt, Doc would have physically kicked his butt.
Sadly today shop owners would likely give the tech (these folks are at best parts changers not mechanics) a bonus.

 

[GasGuzzler]

Flat rate is a rip off to charge triple the hourly rate it takes to actually do anything.

Yours is a common and sad experience but you are misusing the term "flat rate". Your story shows 4-5 crooked practices that happen at dealers and independent shops alike but it's not the flat rate system that got you, it was dishonest people. Flat rate did not have a manager or service advisor make up a labor price out of thin air for a menial task, the person did it themself. We would charge 0 labor plus cost of fluid if were asked specifically to top off an axle. No labor because an hourly employee would do it, not a flat rate tech like me who only gets paid for work completed. The store would "eat" that very small amount of labor (somewhere around $4-5 cost) in the name of customer service. We'd hope to help find legitimate issues to repair at a market value.

If you want it done right, do it yourself. The only things I have paid shops to do in the last 30 years is mount tires and do front end alignments.

You might be driving the equivalent of a horse drawn carriage and a new vehicle has 50 times the technology than the last Space Shuttle to successfully return from space had. Good by my book but let's make sure we keep the apples and oranges separate.

I do as much myself as I can. I don't think that my mechanic is ripping me off but the parts markup can be ridiculous.

I am waiting for parts for 19 vehicles right now. The supply chain is broken (mostly by union attitude) and I guess that is causing price increases. My oldest parts hold was a vehicle I made an estimate for on 6-2-25.

My SIL got an estimate from PepBoys

Yeah, stop there. Those who can, do. Those who can't get hired at places like Pep Boys and Firestone. It is extremely tough to find qualified people, especially 30 miles from the city like here. I am fortunate enough to have worked for good people for most of my career and I have run off several crooks. I flat out got a guy fired for claiming work undone. Guess what he does for a living? Runs his own shop now...

 

[GasGuzzler]

By the way ... the title is also misleading because it's not only dealerships that use flat rate. Nearly all shops of any kind do. The ones that don't are likely union shops where the techs get paid by the hour. Those places cost more.

 

[Dan in MI]

I gotta agree with GG. There are many misconceptions about automotive repairs and rates. That said, there are crooks, not nearly as many as in the past, but they still are there.


I recently read there is a lot of push back on flat rate lately by mechanics/technicians.


I left dealerships for the mother ship in 1990. (not an easy jump as they truly are not related) I often got chastised for not "upselling" repairs. I also got questioned because I didn't turn as many hours as a couple of the other guys. During one of the last of these conversations I asked some pointed questions that got the hour questions dropped for good. It went like this.

Why don't you turn as many hours as xxx? He regularly does 65-75 and you only do 55-65.
Yeah he does turn in more than I do. How many back flags (negative hours for return repairs) does he get every week?
10-12.
And how many do I get?
Sometimes two
So, who's really turning more hours? Sounds about the same to me.


Funny thing. After 3 comebacks (repeat repairs) for the same job, the dealer paid for the repairs and gave the work to someone they trusted to get the job done. Guess who got all of the shop repairs for electrical and climate controls?. Quite often these were xxx's electrical repairs.

 

[Mike J]

When I was a kid my father was service manager at a Ford dealership. My closest friend recently managed an auto repair place. Dad quit the dealership because of how crooked the owner was. My buddy was let go because he turned away work that he knew his techs weren't capable of performing. Dad was honest. My buddy is honest. Some shops aren't. They take advantage of the ignorant. You did good.

 

[protoolman]

Yeah I flipped because the level of dishonesty was astounding. It must make running an honest shop 10 times harder. This was a newly relocated dealership with a multimillion dollar new double showroom and repair facilities Ford on one end and Ram on the other. Yet I found out they are short many mechanics and techs because many professionals are working elsewhere. My mistake for thinking the dealership was the best place to go.

 

[black1970]

I have worked at the most dishonest and crooked truck shop in Tennessee. I have also worked at the most honest and best truck shop in Tennessee. You would not believe what I have seen. Both of these shops were MAJOR dealerships. And the beat goes on.

 

[Kevin]

My wife and I tend to go to the dealership for car repairs. I don't have any stories about them being dishonest.

You also have to consider most newer car brands are generally pretty reliable. Get a car with a good warranty and you're hassle free for four or five years at least. But these days most cars should go 100,000 miles before needing anything major done to them.

@protoolman, your story of the brakes is pretty funny though. I would have loved to have seen the expression on his face when you called him out on it.

 

[Acorn]

My sister had a Ford that needed front hub bearings. She took it to the dealer and they verified the bearings were covered under the extended warranty.
They called her at work and said their tech noticed while tearing down her car the the front brakes were worn, and being they had to remove the old pads to do the bearings, they’d replace the pads, and all she had to do was pay for the pads. For $300!!!
She declined.

 

[jimbo1096]

The last time I took a car in for repair, they never looked at the car, just got in the book and based on what my complaints were pulled out the work that needed to be done and it also had the hours estimated to do the work and they wrote the estimate solely based on what they found in the repair manual

 

[GasGuzzler]

I can explain the flat rate system if anyone wants to know how it works, what its benefits to the customer, facility, and employees are as well as the negatives. There has not been a better way invented in 120 years but the best thing we can all do to better accept it is convert the word "hours" to "units". Get rid of the reference to time completely because it's what angers all three parties above.

My mistake for thinking the dealership was the best place to go.

It might be just probably not that dealership.

They called her at work and said ... being they had to remove the old pads to do the bearings, they'd replace the pads, and all she had to do was pay for the pads. For $300!!!
She declined.

What did we learn by this post? What does that have to do with the OP's story of a crooked dealer? Sounds pretty legit they didn't try to charge overlapping labor.

No one thinks parts prices are set by the dealer do they? Dealers have to BUY the parts from the manufacturer (on account) and then RESELL (at a normal profit margin just like any business) them to customers. Do some mark up the parts 4-8% more than SUGGESTED retail price? Probably. Is that crooked? No, it's business. If they sell less because they are too high, so be it. Don't make customers that don't do research a victim. Just because Autozone sells brake pads for $90 doesn't mean manufacture's parts for $300 is a rip off. It's merely one of dozens of choices we make every day.

The last time I took a car in for repair, they never looked at the car, just got in the book and based on what my complaints were pulled out the work that needed to be done and it also had the hours estimated to do the work and they wrote the estimate solely based on what they found in the repair manual

How is it you know they didn't look at the car? Maybe you waited for the estimate and were able to watch. We call those "bird dogs" and it doesn't bother me a bit as long as they stay out of the way. At least you didn't say all they had to do was "hook it to the computer"...

 

[Acorn]

Wow!

 

[XUSNORDIE]

I can explain the flat rate system if anyone wants to know how it works, what its benefits to the customer, facility, and employees are as well as the negatives. There has not been a better way invented in 120 years but the best thing we can all do to better accept it is convert the word "hours" to "units". Get rid of the reference to time completely because it's what angers all three parties above.

Nobody has mentioned "book time" vs "flat rate" so far that I have seen. I never worked in a auto repair shop but worked in a gun shop. We had a list of services with a "book time" used for the repair/maintenance charge.

 

[Mobuck]

I do most (all) of my mechanic work--sometimes have to ask for help but still done at home. The last shop work I had done was 7-8 years ago and required a LOT of manipulation in the engine compartment. Total cost was about 2X the estimate because the mechanic made a BOO-BOO. Seemed to me his mistake wasn't MY responsibility-probably won't go back there EVER. I know the shop owner and his wife was in my class in school but that didn't make any diff.

 

[GasGuzzler]

Nobody has mentioned "book time" vs "flat rate" so far that I have seen. I never worked in a auto repair shop but worked in a gun shop. We had a list of services with a "book time" used for the repair/maintenance charge.

Flat rate uses book time. Flat rate is book time. They are the same. Every job has a flat rate written in a book (now online) and that's the time the person gets paid and what the labor charge is figured from. Flat rate times the "per hour" (should be per unit of work) rate for the worker is the total pay for that job. Flat rate times the "door rate" (labor rate, whatever) equals what the shop itself takes in. The worker is paid from this larger number. The more efficient, the more UNITS you acquire and the more money you make. Slower, less efficient, cannot multi-task, too many misdiagnoses? You make less UNITS and less money. This is why it is asinine for someone to want someone to use all the time (UNITS?) allotted because it just means that worker is slow or unfamiliar. Sure, get your money's worth with the new kid.

Also remember the estimate you get before the work is completed is an estimate. Going 2X is way beyond acceptable in my book but there are unseen issues at times. On bigger jobs I will add (and so should everyone) an extra $300-500 for these unforeseen issues. If the extra isn't needed, the customer gets a pleasant surprise at check out.

 

[mirglip]

When doing business with contractors or mechanic shops of any kind, their reputation is of paramount importance. Lots of businesses use advertising in place of reputation. If you are foolish enough to do business with them you will get exactly what you deserve.
But since we don't hire contractors of take our vehicle to a shop every day or every year, we really don't know their reputation and it's pretty hard to find out if they have a good one.
We can ask for references which we know they will cherry pick, what good is that?
So we have to be pro-active and ask around well in advance of needing to hire them.
If you live in rural Montana or anywhere in rural Bible Belt USA, where everyone knows everyone else, there aren't that many crooks. If you live in NYC there probably isn't anything but crooks.

 

[Fox Mike]

Sometime back my wife took her car to the dealer for the 'free maintenance" (oil change and general inspection). They told her that the air cleaner was dirty and needed changing. She told them to change it. When the entire 'inspection' was complete the car was returned to her. She ask the mechanic to open the hood. She looked and asked why they had charged her for a new filter when the attachment devices were still dirty and hadn't been opened. They assured her the filter was changed. She said "Open it and show me the new filter". The device was opened and there was a cruddy old filter still installed. Things got a bit 'lively' after that.

 

[Kevin]

Back in high school I drove a car that broke down a lot. I think I developed some sort of phobia about being stranded on the side of the road.

These days, I absolutely refuse to have an older car out of warranty that might possibly leave me stranded. I just will not do it.

I always have to laugh at the signs on walls of auto repair places. The one that says something like: “$15 an hour if we do the work, or $30 an hour if you tried fixing it yourself before bringing it in.

 

[Johnnu2]

My friends and neighbors always call me when the bring their cars in for 'state inspection' and are then told of the "repairs" that are needed (not relative to the inspection). I don't think I ever told anyone that the "repairs" were legitimate. I've been correct 100% of the time and I'm NOT a mechanic (nor do I play one on TV or anywhere else). Also, in today's world, be careful or your doctor's recommendations (I suspect that many "group practices" pay out executive bonuses based on annual revenue/profit.
J.

 

[GasGuzzler]

Texas abolished State safety inspections for most of the residents but the people that conducted them regularly in inspection only shops are pretty much always crooks. They depend on upsells from inspections to make their money. Inspections in Texas paid the license holder $7 per sticker. So glad they are gone.

 

[protoolman]

My experience with flat rate is at my old local dealer in North Dakota.They charge $90 hour for labor supposedly and a one hour minimum. So you go in for say something simple like a cabin air filter. On my car you just open the glove box unclip 2 clips and pull It out. 5 minutes if you've done it before. If I buy a new one it's under $10 at Walmart Mart. If I have it done at dealer it's $25 for the filter and $90 labor. Or like you said GG maybe they allow 3 hours for an alternator swap. A good mech can do it in an hour. So the faster the mech works the more he makes. Lots of incentive to cheat to get paid more. I want to hire the mechanics at the actual rate it takes to finish the job way cheaper as book time allows way too much. I've dropped off my vehicle at 10:00 picked it up at noon and paid for 3 1/2 to 4 hours labor before. Assuming it took 15 minutes to drive it in and out and for the tech to find the work order and grab the parts, why should I pay so much labor? There are local guys with small shops charging by the hour, I think that's where I will go next time.

 

[GasGuzzler]

My experience with flat rate is at my old local dealer in North Dakota.They charge $90 hour for labor supposedly and a one hour minimum. So you go in for say something simple like a cabin air filter. On my car you just open the glove box unclip 2 clips and pull It out. 5 minutes if you've done it before. If I buy a new one it's under $10 at Walmart Mart. If I have it done at dealer it's $25 for the filter and $90 labor.

That's not flat rate, that's merely inflated pricing. Flat rate would be for them to look up the time for the filter and charge that time multiplied by the labor rate. But most places don't for things like filters. Instead they make a menu price based on their average cost across all the different models. Set it up to make a small profit on average with the worst case being a small loss on 3% of the jobs and the best case making more than normal margin on the easiest 3%. This is what good shops do.

Or like you said GG maybe they allow 3 hours for an alternator swap. A good mech can do it in an hour. So the faster the mech works the more he makes. Lots of incentive to cheat to get paid more.

So you're saying whomever does the best job should not get paid the most. How did we get from most efficient to cheater? Where was that line crossed?

I want to hire the mechanics at the actual rate it takes to finish the job way cheaper as book time allows way too much. I've dropped off my vehicle at 10:00 picked it up at noon and paid for 3 1/2 to 4 hours labor before. Assuming it took 15 minutes to drive it in and out and for the tech to find the work order and grab the parts, why should I pay so much labor? There are local guys with small shops charging by the hour, I think that's where I will go next time.

Please explain how "book time allows too much". There are jobs that pay too much, yes ... and there are even more that pay too little. For a good technician, they average out once the customer pay hours are added.

How is it determined? GM uses time studies although most every time is transliterated from a previous similar operation. They test people's time doing repairs with only hand tools (yeah, right) then take the average then make the time about 60% of that for warranty rates. Most aftermarket labor time guides take warranty times and increase them by 30%. So where'd the rest go we are owed?

Translation: I want my cake and to it too. You want the most knowledgeable, efficient, and competent technician that has the cost of the beginner. I guess that's what everyone wants but it doesn't work that way. It's not flat rate you are against, it's that the price is too high. Well, so is everything else including the cost of operating a shop. You have no problem paying by the hour if someone takes 5X longer than it should? What incentive to be efficient does an hourly technician have? He's making the same no matter what pace he works and the slower he is, the more YOU pay. Makes perfect sense.

 

[mirglip]

So you're saying whomever does the best job should not get paid the most. How did we get from most efficient to cheater? Where was that line crossed?

From a business perspective fast might be best, but from the customers viewpoint that's not the case at all. In the 70's I worked as a mechanic on commission for a while myself and I saw what was going on. Speed comes from experience, memory and leaving out time consuming steps. The customer doesn't benefit from leaving out steps.
Since experience and memory are key components of speed, a flat rate mechanic has a motive to specialize and concentrate on procedures that he can do fast. So he becomes a salesmen for those procedures whether the customer needs them or not.
Our shop had a solvent sprayer we called a "flat rate gun". It was used to clean parts on the vehicle to make them look like they were new. For example they would "flat rate" a carburetor while doing a tune up and charge for a carb overhaul they didn't do.
I could see the sickness and I got out of there and got a job wrenching on busses by the hour and never went back to commission.

 

[GasGuzzler]

I have seen crooks, no doubt. I have done my part to expose them as mentioned. But I keep hearing stories of "a guy" that are being used to try and prove the flat rate system, with over a million technicians using it, is entirely crooked. We have all seen crooks in every industry.

Speed comes from experience, memory and leaving out time consuming steps. The customer doesn't benefit from leaving out steps.

This is so vague and subjective it cannot be argued. It's also inflammatory and inciteful to those who just read the surface content without experience. Service information often has steps that are not necessary in any way. Some engineer that has never worked on a vehicle wrote the procedure to satisfy the attorneys and bean counters and now the technician is being called a cheater? The guy that wrote the procedure (sometimes non-English speaking that gets translated to English) is wrong or has short fat fingers or short arms or didn't access to certain tools. There are hundreds of valid reasons to use an alternate method which cannot be construed as dishonest. Bad apples in every bunch.

Since experience and memory are key components of speed, a flat rate mechanic has a motive to specialize and concentrate on procedures that he can do fast. So he becomes a salesmen for those procedures whether the customer needs them or not.

WHOA! That's a big jump !! Since a guy gets good at something he starts charging to do it without doing it? What's the percentage conversion rate for these people you describe? Is there some Force? Does Darth Vader turn all technicians to the Dark Side? This likely something that happens and likely not nearly as often as is being suggested. Most people do the right thing.

I could see the sickness and I got out of there and got a job wrenching on busses by the hour and never went back to commission.

It's not uncommon for people to be unsuccessful at flat rate and have to move to an hourly job. I had a friend that did so working for a fairly large city suburb of Dallas but he had to learn to work on front end loaders, fire trucks, ambulances, etc. The benefits were enough better it made sense for him. But those that can make hours on flat rate could never get an hourly rate high enough to compete with what they can make flat rate.