Basic understanding of firearms (pistols) right/wrong?

[Kraut]

Somewhere in the WWW I found this article regarding "the basic understanding of firearms":

Image used under the fair use doctrine

Frankly speaking, I have considerable doubts regarding this recommendation:
“Grab a handgun (here: a pistol) and hold tightly to the top and it cannot fire.”

As far as I understand the mechanism of a semi-automatic pistol, when I pull the trigger, it FIRES and THEN (i.e. in the moment when the bullet LEAVES the muzzle) the slide moves backwards due to the recoil. Which means, even though I hold tightly to the top (slide), it will fire the FIRST round and I will get shot. Only the NEXT round will not be chambered because the slide cannot retract, and the gun MAY jam.

Is my basic understanding of pistols right or do I have a blackout????????????

 

[axisofoil]

You're right. It will fire regardless of whether the slide is jammed...

However, if you partially retract the slide, you may be able to completely prevent the gun from firing.

 

[427mach1]

You can also prevent a semi-auto from firing if you keep the hammer from falling. Of course, this wouldn't work for a striker type pistol.

 

[bennettfam]

If mag-disconnect equipped you could hit the mag release to disable. Then there is the banana up the tailpipe thing...oh wait...that would be for a car. :wink:

 

[Paine]

It might be a case of poor wording, or just trying to dumb things down for people who aren't educated about firearms. Could they be talking about taking the pistol out of battery? I don't know that I'd trust the idea to work on every firearm, but that could be it.
-P

 

[cruzerlou]

There are techniques of grabbing a handgun and snatching out of an attackers hand without you getting shot your self I teach some of these, but I tell my students to count on the gun going off.

It's all about YOUR ATTACK ANGLE and pushing the muzzle away from you while at the same time moving and gaining control of the gun and ripping it from the grip of your attacker.
When you do this very quickly and use their own joints, body weight momentum against them you end up holding their own gun on them and as you move to do this you yell KEHAAA this scares the snot out out of them, but also with a forceful exhale increases your own strength .If I ever get my video camera fixed I'll video these moves and post them.

The one that will get you shot every time is then old “stick your pinkie finger behind the trigger THIS FLAT OUT DON'T WORK your fine motor skills are gone at this point and you just can't do it.

Your NOT Jackie Chan or Chet Lee and you haven't been practicing this move all day long with a guy that gonna let you do this .The other is with an auto pull the muzzle into your chest and this will push the slide back just enough to take it out of battery and it will until they simply pull back on the gun and now you get a nice center of mass close contact wound and ALL THE GASES AND THE BULLET go into your chest cavity and turn your organs into jelly
.
You can grab a revolver and keep the cylinder from turning and this works unless they have cocked the hammer and if they have they can still shoot one round and then even if they miss you, you still need to have the skill set to snatch a gun...The same goes with sticking your thumb between the cocked hammer and the frame.

You still have to take the gun way from them real quick .Unless you've been trained to make these moves more often than not trying this is gonna get you shot .Basically if you haven't been trained to do this just give them your wallet and live to fight another day ,+ if they have snuck up on you with there gun drawn, they have the drop on you anyway ,
Very few if any are quick enough to draw and fire if your attacker has his gun in your gut ,That where empty hand combat comes into play .

If their gonna shot their gonna shot you anyway then it's up to you as to what you choose to do you .Take an empty hand combat class, this is just as important as taking a self defense shooting class .Some of y'all here may think I come across as a bit harsh, I don't mean to or as a know it all, I’m not.

I'm just trying to pass along some of the things I've learned over the 30 some years of training I've had .I learn things from y'all every time I come here .It would saded me deeply to hear one of y'all got hurt trying some of these things that you weren't trained and well practiced to do. Just because you read it here or somewhere else or saw it on T.V . . . .

Sorry this is so long a read but I felt these things needed to be said.

Please Be Safe My Friends and do heed my words,
Lou

 

[Spike]

Concerns me a little bit.

They're talking about a "basic understanding", and yet what they suggest seems to be a pretty advanced technique in CQC involving a firearm.

Just seems a little iffy, at best, to instruct the general public -- with the assumption that they know next to nothing about firearms -- that you can prevent a gun from firing simply by grabbing the top...

Especially considering it doesn't work that way (at least according to my "basic understanding"). You might prevent a semi from firing twice... if you can manage to get a good grip while defending against a determined attacker and before the first round gets off...

Like I said, wow, pretty gutsy high lvl CQC stuff.

-S

 

[Snake45]

Somewhere in the WWW I found this article regarding "the basic understanding of firearms":

Image used under the fair use doctrine

Frankly speaking, I have considerable doubts regarding this recommendation:
“Grab a handgun (here: a pistol) and hold tightly to the top and it cannot fire.”

Absolute, utter and complete nonsense that will get someone killed. :roll:

Of course, if you're able to grab the gun and "hold tightly" to it that way, in about 1/10 of a second you could also take it away from the idiot and shoot him in the head with it.

 

[cruzerlou]

snake there way to "snatch" a gun from someones hsnd ,but NOT the way the guy in that pic is doing it .
Lou

 

[Snake45]

snake there way to "snatch" a gun from someones hsnd ,but NOT the way the guy in that pic is doing it .
Lou

There are a couple of ways. Looks like he might be trying for one of them (not my preferred method).

I said if you could get a grip on the thing, you could prolly take it away, I didn't say that's what he was doing in this pic.

 

[cruzerlou]

CORRECT ,THAT IS NOT THE WAY IT'S DONE .If i get my hands on it i WILL take it from you ,and it don't matter how big and strong you are ,it's eazy to do once you know how .One way I get to keep your trigger finger too .
Lou

 

[Spike]

Absolute, utter and complete nonsense that will get someone killed. :roll:

Yeah but-but-but... it was on the internet... plus, they're wearing black t-shirts! :shock:
-S

 

[Code-Red-1]

Absolute, utter and complete nonsense that will get someone killed. :roll:

Yeah but-but-but... it was on the internet... plus, they're wearing black t-shirts! :shock:
-S

Of course because black t-shirts make u look tacti-cool...

 

[blume357]

Reminds me of the James Garner movie, Support Your Local Sheriff were the bad guy comes into his office and points a revolver at him.. Garner sticks his finger in the barrel.....

 

[pisgah]

A classic case of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

 

[Snake45]

CORRECT ,THAT IS NOT THE WAY IT'S DONE .If i get my hands on it i WILL take it from you ,and it don't matter how big and strong you are ,it's eazy to do once you know how .One way I get to keep your trigger finger too .
Lou

I can see you and I have had the same training. :wink:

 

[lakers3234]

I'm not too sure about that picture, but I don't think 99% of us would take a pistol from another person like that. I have a scenario or two that I think would work. In my martial arts we're not so much taking the gun away but more of taking the person down if they have a weapon. My martial arts is if you get the person down, then take his/her weapon.

That thumb theory behind the trigger prolly won't work if the bad guy has a short trigger on it.

 

[Tmyoungjr]

I'm also fairly certain if someone's pulled a gun on you - you probably aren't going to be almost next to them. Odds are you'll be directly in front of them. Can't stand this type of thing, it's going to get someone hurt!

 

[Snake45]

I'm not too sure about that picture, but I don't think 99% of us would take a pistol from another person like that. I have a scenario or two that I think would work. In my martial arts we're not so much taking the gun away but more of taking the person down if they have a weapon. My martial arts is if you get the person down, then take his/her weapon.

Well, good luck with that. :?

 

[DGW1949]

CORRECT ,THAT IS NOT THE WAY IT'S DONE .If i get my hands on it i WILL take it from you ,and it don't matter how big and strong you are ,it's eazy to do once you know how .One way I get to keep your trigger finger too .
Lou

Yeah on that.
Either take it away and put the guy on the ground....or shoot him...or don't take the gun away but cause him to shoot his own self instead. The police teaches to disarm, the military teaches to shoot. Neither manuver is hard to do once ya know how.

Disclaimer:
I have encountered one man who was so strong that it was impossable to bend his wrist or elbow, even when using my body weight and the gun barrel for leverage. He also knew the counter-moves to maintain control of the situation no matter what I tried. Luckily, he weren't a bad guy. He was brought in by one of my instructors just to show me that nothing is 100% sure to work every time.
But them clowns in the OP's example?....that kinda crap is sure to get ya kilt.

DGW

 

[cruzerlou]

If he's right in front of you say the gun's in his right hand pointed at your midsection with your left hand OPEN and as your whole body is moving to your left ,you YELL KEEHAAA!!! and with your left hand you palm the gun away from you to the right,then close your hand around the slide/cylinder with a firm grip,
and with your right hand your grabbing for his right hand at the wrist.

Remember at this point the gun will most likely go off but you've moved away from the gun and you've pushed the muzzle away from you also you twisting the gun in toward his torso,your using the bbl of the gun as a leaver to twist his wrist ,
now you have him in a reverse wrist lock . Remember to keep your feet OUTSIDE OF HIS like a boxer ,so that he can't make a strike to your tender parts.

At this point both of your hands are on his and your hands are between his right arm and his torso you step into him and shove forward with your hands ,drive your right shoulder into his right shoulder,this throws him off balance he has no choice but to let go of the gun .
Now you have the gun but the parties not over yet. All you have is the slide /bbl in your left hand grab the grip with your right hand and bring your left hand back ,now you have solid two hand hold on the gun .
AS SOON as you have control of the gun you quickly BACKUP!!!maybe even through in a knee strike with your right knee into his gonads or the out side of his thigh into the sciatic nerve with your left knee.
Keep backing up until your out of his arms reach .
When you do this right it's all one smooth move and it takes about 1/2 a second .
You can do the same move in reverse you just push the gun to the right and twist the gun to his outside and backwards ,when you do this move if his finger is in the trigger guard you just broke it .All the rest of the move stays the same ,you just go to his outside instead of inside .If your a little to his right go inside ,if your to his left go outside ,the point here is to move the weapon as little as possible to get your self out of the line of fire .the less you have to move the better .If moving to the left means you sweep your self with the weapon less move that way and vice -versa.

I'll try to take picks of this to show you ,
it's really easy to do and very hard to defend against .
No thug will ever expect this move ,unless your walking around in your Gee and then who would try to mug you anyway.


Disclaimer;I TAKE NO RESPONCEABILTY FOR ANY INJURY INCURED TO YOU OR YOUR ATTACKER IF YOU USE THIS MOVE .
I will post pics and explain each part of this disarming technique ,but it's up to you to go and get some training on your own .
Lou

 

[Snake45]

Lou, I don't think you should post pics of this.

In fact, IMHO, you shouldn't even post it verbally on the net. You never know who could be reading it. No sense giving the bad guys a weapon to use against the good guys. :? :evil:

 

[cruzerlou]

BTW if someone tries to use the one shown on the first post IT WILL GET THEM KILLED THATS WHY I POSTED THE RIGHT WAY TO DO IT
Lou

 

[Mike J]

I had actually read that move described in a Mas Ayoob book. It does make more sense than what is shown in the pic at the beginning of this thread.

Why anyone would post what is shown in the OP's pic as a viable technique for the general public I don't understand.

 

[cruzerlou]

It can be done from behind or off to one side you just modify what I wrote ,like I said If anyone wants to learn it just P.M. me and I'll send you the text on how to do it right .
Lou

 

[NixieTube]

If the gun is in battery and the firing pin (it's a striker gun in this picture, but same thing applies, it's a firing pin) hits the primer the gun will go bang and the bullet will leave the barrel with everything it has. Revolver or not, striker fired or not, it doesn't matter. Whatever is in its way will get hit. The locked-breech mechanism of most of our semiautos, after all, is *designed* to lock the barrel and slide together until *after* the bullet has left the barrel and is on its way to the next zipcode. Maybe that's why the officer to the left is standing off to the shooter's right. He wouldn't want to be in front of that gun. In a real fight, he'd probably be dead. Also, in this situation the striker-fired pistol is actually more formidable because there is no hammer to block: the firing mechanism is internal, so even if he has his thumb around the back end of the gun, it will still fire. What is really being illustrated there is to prevent the *second* round from firing, maybe.

The gun may or may not cycle properly, but if there is a round in the chamber it will fire that first round, unless the slide is moved out of battery and the trigger is deactivated as a result.

If you're that close to the BG with the gun you're better off stabbing him in the eye sockets with your fingers or otherwise trying to get the gun down and off target than you are trying to get the gun itself to malfunction, IMO. If you've closed that much distance on the person holding the weapon, I agree with the martial arts guys here - you're better off disabling the shooter first, manually. Then pick up the gun he drops and shoot him with it.

 

[NixieTube]

As far as magazine disconnects are concerned (Oh Lord do I really want to wade into that swamp...yes, I suppose I'll have to) I can see them being beneficial in primarily non-combat situations. An armorer is collecting pistols and wants to guarantee that none of them can fire, and do so very easily, by just dropping the magazines. A person with a gun in their home wants an easy way to render the pistol safe without clearing it completely. For some people who want to render their guns un-fireable without having any worries about bullet setback problems, the magazine disconnect isn't a bad compromise. Finally -- perhaps, and very much a perhaps -- a police officer in a fight situation wants to deprive the BG of the use of the gun by dropping the magazine as a last resort. Drop magazine, drop gun, step back, go for backup weapon, shoot bad guy. Perhaps.

Has anyone seen or heard of any examples of the latter actually happening successfully in the real world? What other reasons for the magazine disconnect safety could there be?

I suppose there could be more legalistic reasons: in some states there are well-meaning bureaucrats who approve guns based on safety features they think are important. Many times those safety features are just additional hurdles for manufacturers to jump over that have nothing to do with actual operational safety and in fact may make the gun less safe for its intended purpose. They may or may not be correct but it is of little consequence to someone who owns the firearm in their state: modifying the gun could lead to trouble if that person ever has to defend themself in court. The people who write those laws are lawyers, not necessarily gun owners, and in many cases not people who have ever even fired a gun, much less understood their various differences in any comprehensive way. Alas, the world is a big place and people have all kinds of weird ideas when they control the Legislature. It has ever been thus.

 

[cruzerlou]

Some folks here are talking about using their maetail arts to take the B.G.
down and then take the gun from them .This if falwled thinking .First you MUST control the weapon ,[gun,knife ,pipe baseball bat whatever ].If you use some move and take them down and then go after the weapon they can STILL USE IT ON YOU!!!!!! .

You disarm them first and then take them down .The disarming moves I teach do both at the same time ,you just go for the weapon first as your taking them down .Also once disarmed and down their no longer a threat to you and by law you can do no further harm to them .If you do now YOUR THE AGGRESSOR .If you disarm them take them down and they aptempt to contenue to fight and regain control of the weapon ,your life is still in danger and you can act accordinily.


If you do some slick move and disarm them FIRST and them take them down with a techqnicque that disables them too [not nessararly kill them]
you have won the battle .My point is the weapon is the greater of the two dangers and you ALYWAY go after the greatest danger first .


If you master a disarming tecqunicque and snach the weapon from them ,most will give up the fight [these guys just want your money and will run away, it ain't worth them getting hurt over ].If they don't it's clear their intent is to kill you anyway so you need empty hand skills that will drop them in there tracks and that they just can't jump back up from .

.If you get into a wrestling match with them over the weapon on the ground your in just as much danger as you were standing face to face with them .GET RID OF THE WEAPON FIRST and then take them down hard and do enough dammage to them that they won't want to tangle with you again and the'll still be laying there when Law Enforcement shows up.

Take my words for what you think there worth ,but I ask you ,to talk to other L.E.O.'s here and the'll tell you the same thing.
Never give the bad guy a frrst chance much less a second chance .Hurt him bad enough the first time that he won't want a second time .
Lou

 

[Yosemite Sam]

Ah, c'mon: I want to see the Jackie Chan move in real life, where he takes the top end off the Beretta that's trained on him. :D

-- Sam

 

[Slanteyedshootist]

Didn't Berettas used to diassemble themselves? :D