Accidental Discharge.....

[Bob Wright]

On the Ruger Owners Facebook page the statement was made that there was no such thing as an"accidental discharge." I beg to differ there. This happened to me about forty years ago:

I was visiting my daughter up in Ohio, about 1980 or so. My son-in-law and a few of his friends were really into the Thompson Contender single shot pistol, and had it made up that when I visited they would introduce me to that pistol. The progression was to work up from small stuff. the .30-30, and on up through the .45-70. After I had checked out with the .30-30, the next step up was the .35 Remington. Now I was no novice with handguns, only with the Contender. I loaded and fired one round, and loaded and prepared to fire the second. I obtained my sight picture and squeezed the trigger. Nothing. The trigger sear "broke" but the hammer stayed cocked. I slid my finger off the trigger and alongside the frame and waited about a minute, or what seemed like a minute. I lowered the pistol, elevating the muzzle slightly as I bent my elbows. As the muzzle lifted slightly, the pistol fired, the front sight catching me just under my right cheek bone and cutting a nice slot.

These pistols had been used in developing some elephant-killer cartridges and loads, and apparently the innards had become battered enough to cause the hammer to momentarily stick. Apparently the slight movement had set it off. Being gun savvy at the time prevented any injuries that might have otherwise resulted.

 

[kmoore]

They can rename an AD to something more woke if needed but it's still an AD. It can and does happen with firearms that fail or break and a round is discharged. Being on the range as much as I have I think the most common happen when the operator of the firearm fails to do something normally regarding safe practices. They also happen when the operator does not know the proper way to handle that firearm. They happen in every type of gun, handguns, rifles, shotguns. So is the point the person was trying to make, it's not an accident if the discharge happened by bad safety practices? There are careless acts that cause an AD, that I agree with. If a firearm discharge was not intentional what should we rename it?

 

[pie]

I wouldn't even classify that as an AD but more like a mechanical mishap of the firearm itself. A darn good thing you were very gun savvy. Thank goodness nothing serious happened.

 

[contender]

In general,, there are (2) ways to describe a gun going off when it's not "supposed to."
(1) A negligent discharge,, where a person directly causes the gun to discharge by putting his finger on the trigger when they should not,, AND applying pressure causing the discharge. Bad safety practice, unsafe gun handling in general,, lack of education etc.
(2) A mechanical failure of the firearm, causing a discharge. Such as what Bob has mentioned. Worn firearms, broken parts, bad designs, etc can all cause a firearm to discharge when the trigger is not contacted by the handler.

But,, unless there are unusual circumstances, a loaded firearm will not discharge without physical contact by something. A loaded gun in a fire comes to mind. But that's neither negligent nor accidental.

 

[dweis]

I have to agree that there is no such thing as an accidental discharge. What is an accident? It’s an unforeseen consequence. What causes unforeseen consequences? Lot’s of things like not thinking, being unprepared, failing to exercise good practices, etc. Those failures are a result of negligence. If you disagree ask your insurance agent what causes accidents. Your agent will tell you that human negligence does it. So the fact is that an accidental discharge is a negligence. However the word accidental is easy in the culpable party. I am not inclined to excuse negligence that way.

 

[SamV]

Dweis, sorry but I can’t see what Bob described as being a negligent discharge. I think that contender stated things very well and that most would agree with those definitions. I also think that the vast majority are NDs and not ADs.
I have a similar story as Bob in a way, but the opposite. I was handed a small semi automatic handgun to shoot one day with family. After loading and chambering a round, on the second trigger pull, it went full auto. The sear failed to catch and hold the hammer. I am not sure if that was poor manufacturing or excessive wear. Either way, I was not negligent in my handling. It was the first time that firearm did that, but it did do it again, at least proving to others that it was not the operator.

 

[Mobuck]

I had an AD while tinkering with a 9mm AR last year. Somewhat of a mechanical problem compounded by a factor I had not considered.
I had set up this AR9 pistol using a lower that had been fired numerous times w/o issue but when the 9mm upper with it's extra heavy buffer was installed, I was getting a 'bump fire' issue due to the heavy buffer causing a reverse recoil which in turn tripped the light pull weight trigger. After the second occurrence, I chose to stop testing and fix the problem so I did the typical 'drop the mag and retract the charge handle to clear the chamber' but didn't engage the safety. When I laid the gun on the bench, it fired.
I then realized that w/o the magazine (I was using the ENDO-MAG conversion kit) there's no ejector so the loaded round stayed held to the bolt face by the extractor and returned to the chamber. The bullet went downrange so no safety concern but I don't use the endo-mag conversion anymore.
There's a lesson in this: don't be complacent. I agree that the OP suffered a mechanical failure rather than personal negligence. The negligence was on the part of the gun's owner for failing to properly maintain the firearm.

 

[contender]

dweis,, you said;
"If you disagree ask your insurance agent what causes accidents. Your agent will tell you that human negligence does it."

What about a lightning strike? A tornado, a flood, or other natural disasters. No human negligence there.

Re-read my thoughts,, and realize that when a specific incident like Bob's happens,, he had an accidental discharge due to an abused firearm. He did nothing wrong. No negligence on his part. The firearm's history of abuse was the underlying reason,, which in many people's opinion is negligence,, but they never had a problem.

Kinda like the handloader who takes a firearm,, always loading charges above book maximums. The gun may hold up for a few shots,, or even many shots,, but then,, when loaded by a different person, using normal loads,, and it blows up,, it's called an accident,, but it's previous abuse was the negligence.

Common sense tells us that if a person has an event of any kind,, and did nothing wrong,, it's an accident. But if a person fails to do specific things that could prevent an event, then it's negligence.
How about this; I'm walking out of a store,, just having spent money,,, and I fail to properly secure a $20 in my wallet. I stuff it in my pocket. I go to get my keys,, and lose the $20. It blows away. A kid walking the sidewalk,, finds a $20,, and picks it up. I was negligent in securing my $20,, and it was an accident the kid found it.

 

[rugerguy]

driving, and getting into an accident is just that, much like turning around too quickly and accidentally spilling your coffee on the person behind, or accidentally pushing the garage door opener, to "close" when you are halfway in or out of the garage....Contender has it about spot on, I could not tell enough stories of "accidents" at any of the ranges we shot at over the 60 plus years, yessir "stuff happens"...its up to the lawyers to decide if YOU are "libel"...... 8) :roll: :wink:

 

[Igor]

The guy who taught my boy's hunter safety course said there are no "accidents" with firearms.......there are "negligents", and there are "stupids".

 

[hittman]

In general,, there are (2) ways to describe a gun going off when it's not "supposed to."
(1) A negligent discharge, where a person directly causes the gun to discharge……
(2) A mechanical failure of the firearm, causing a discharge.

~ ~. THIS ! ~. ~.

 

[blume357]

Not sure how you folks would define it but I put a different lighter trigger and sear or such on my Charger a good number of years back... same type and brand I had put on some 10/22s.... I then discovered if I tried to pull the trigger with the safety on nothing would happen as expected but when flipped the safety off the hammer would fall and the gun would fire. Needless to say I changed it back to factory on that gun.

 

[warren5421]

Had a Glock 19 2nd gen that AD hitting a Barbie doll. I dropped the mag and the gun went off pointed at the floor where my daughters collector Barbie doll was laying.. Sent back to Glock they said something broke allowing the sticker to go forward, shell in chamber went bang. Son still carries that gun. He might even have to think if either the wife or the gun had to go.

 

[jimd441]

I have been fortunate, the only...accidental discharge..I experienced was when I inadvertently farted in Church.

Jim

 

[powder smoke]

In general,, there are (2) ways to describe a gun going off when it's not "supposed to."
(1) A negligent discharge, where a person directly causes the gun to discharge……
(2) A mechanical failure of the firearm, causing a discharge.

~ ~. THIS ! ~. ~.

No way to argue that point, its spot on!
Keep the muzzle point in a safe direction @ all times! Period! ps

 

[hpman66]

IMHO, while the following video is not presented in a serious enough manner, it does show what the results can be if a firearm is fired in an AD, ND or any manner. It might be also useful to show new shooters to use proper gun safety when handling firearms.

 

[Dan in MI]

Where does faulty ammo fit in this? Hangfires in particular.

 

[eveled]

Its all semantics.

If it went off when you didn’t want it to it was an accident. Some (most) accidents are preventable some are not.

No different than a car. If a car hits something its a traffic accident even though it was probably preventable.

 

[Mobuck]

I've had 3 rifles (one each-Mauser, Remington, and Savage) traded in that had mechanical issues that could/did cause inadvertent discharges. All were due to 'tinkering' by previous owner(?) and were resolved by replacing fire control parts. Other prime causes of AD have been gloves caught in trigger guard, finger on trigger while re-holstering, and lack of experience/knowledge. At this point, no person has been injured in these AD's but I've become somewhat of a safety freak as a result.

 

[Jeepnik]

Funny how folks understood what an AD was for generations. Then some gun rag writers decided to call it negligent. Same thing, same causes as ever was. Just a bunch of folks trying to act superior by belittling the actions of others.

Folks, stuff happens. Just deal with it and move on, cuz more stuff is going to happen. Always has always will.

 

[whymhot]

I see. Negligent discharge is on account of human brain malfunction. Accidental discharge is on account of mechanical trouble with the gun.

The person dry firing INTENDS for the trigger to be operated. He in his right mind does not intend for the gun to go bang. But in his erroneous state of mind he forgot to clear the gun again before depressing the trigger. Something disrupted his train of thought and he deviated from his normal habits of gun handling. We can train for 100's of hours in firearm safety but none of that training can prepare us for a moment of forgetfulness.

Gun handlers must NEVER trust their memory for one second.

Dry-firing is very counterintuitive if you are not experienced at it. Most people do expect, and intend, the gun to fire when the trigger is intentionally depressed in most trigger-depressing situations.

 

[gramps]

Sorry guys, to me it is all much ado about nothing. AD vs ND, Clip vs Magazine. Word Nazi’s.
gramps

 

[Snake Pleskin]

I worked at SGC for 10 yrs or more, Saw my fair share of AD's or ND's. I believe an accident is something that happens when you are doing everything correctly, but circumstances alter the event. You are driving down the road, doing everything properly and some one hits you from behind, because they were not paying attention etc. Accident, because you did nothing to cause it. negligence comes into the equation if there was something you were doing at the time that added to the probability/possibility of the accident happening. Firearms discharges are two kinds in my opinion. You want it too go bang, and you did not want it to go bang. If it goes bang and you did not want it too, two things could have happened, you screwed up somehow, or mechanical failure. You can screw up in a hundred different ways. Mechanical failure like wise can be many different types. Having a round in the chamber go off unexpectedly, and there is no mechanical issue, is negligence, because you should always know whether or not the firearm is loaded(the gun is always loaded!) and if you are following proper protocol, it should never happen. That is negligence pure & simple, not an accident. (IMHO)