A question about quality control.

[SamV]

From time to time posts about manufacturing quality pop up here and other forums. Many people cite examples of poor mill work, assembly, or finishing. We have heard of barrels screwed on incorrectly or sights off because of a cant. Excessive or insufficient bc gap. Well of course I could go on and on. Many lament rushed manufacturing, and trying to get products out at a moderate price point. Many have said that the days of the assembly man being a gunsmith hand fitting the parts are gone. Not counting the small companies that still make guns that way like Freedom Arms or some of the high end 1911 companies.
So my question is, for those of you in the manufacturing or engineering areas, is about the production line itself. It seems that many complaints center more on the revolver and metal semi auto gun. Are there fewer QC issues with the polymer guns than the metal ones? I certainly have a preference for the traditional gun but I seem to hear less manufacturing QC issues with the plastic ones. We do see and hear about some design and engineering flaws that may pop up and require recalls, but not manufacturing and assembly ones. I have a bunch of both types of guns I can find a number of minor, mostly aesthetic flaws on the metal guns not so much on the polymer ones. I like them all for different reasons so I don't have a bias here.
So is the polymer type of gun production inherently less prone to QC issues than metal production?

 

[GunnyGene]

From time to time posts about manufacturing quality pop up here and other forums. Many people cite examples of poor mill work, assembly, or finishing. We have heard of barrels screwed on incorrectly or sights off because of a cant. Excessive or insufficient bc gap. Well of course I could go on and on. Many lament rushed manufacturing, and trying to get products out at a moderate price point. Many have said that the days of the assembly man being a gunsmith hand fitting the parts are gone. Not counting the small companies that still make guns that way like Freedom Arms or some of the high end 1911 companies.
So my question is, for those of you in the manufacturing or engineering areas, is about the production line itself. It seems that many complaints center more on the revolver and metal semi auto gun. Are there fewer QC issues with the polymer guns than the metal ones? I certainly have a preference for the traditional gun but I seem to hear less manufacturing QC issues with the plastic ones. We do see and hear about some design and engineering flaws that may pop up and require recalls, but not manufacturing and assembly ones. I have a bunch of both types of guns I can find a number of minor, mostly aesthetic flaws on the metal guns not so much on the polymer ones. I like them all for different reasons so I don't have a bias here.
So is the polymer type of gun production inherently less prone to QC issues than metal production?

Can't answer your specific question, but I was a CQE and senior statistician for a fortune 50 company for a number of years, and Chairman of a ASQ section for 2 years.

The finished quality of anything is a result of a great many factors (including costs, production tool & equipment maintenance, product design, etc. ), product inspection being the least important and the most prone to error, especially in high volume production where sampling is the rule.

You may want to take a look at this site to get an idea of what's involved in a company QA program: American Society for Quality (ASQ) http://asq.org/index.aspx?gclid=CN71iumSu8kCFUWWgQod7ikKHA .

 

[Kevin]

I don't own any poly guns and don't really pay them any attention in the store, but is the plastic just more forgiving of mistakes? They certainly don't take much hand labor to finish, as they aren't a high gloss blue. And the barrel, which is metal, is in a housing, so barrel cant wouldn't be an issue.

Are there issues with MIM parts? Ruger single action revolvers don't use MIM at least not that I'm aware of.

Interesting question, I'd like to hear the answer as well from those more knowledgeable in the industry.

 

[mohavesam]

I'll echo Gunnygene.
Every customer-consumer direct product has parameters or tolerances to meet. Building "better than tolerance" can actually cause expensive fit & functionality problems. Making jewelry when your customer base won't pay for the extra work is a sure recipe for the empty building syndrome. Of course, Remington and S&W have moved that "extra work" to a specialty shop or "custom shop" business model, alas Ruger will not. Although some Ruger buyers profess they'll pay twice the MSRP for custom work/guns, sales proves they don't IRL.

Polymer moldings will always be inherently more accurate in dimensional control, and therefore lend themselves to automation and modern measurement techniques (read cost-saving). Automotive, aerospace, and consumer electronics have proven this for decades now. Believe me, if Ruger could make every model of every gun using plastics and automation, they would!

Aye Gunny, I've also wasted my life in QA/Engineering building manned space program and aircraft propulsion/life support devices. ASQ CQM/OE, CQE, CQA, CSQE and other alphabet soup. MBB and technical Fellow. Silver Snoopy nominee -Return to Flight/STS113 :shock: ...'course all that will never fit on my tombstone...

 

[GunnyGene]

Aye Gunny, I've also wasted my life in QA/Engineering building manned space program and aircraft propulsion/life support devices. ASQ CQM/OE, CQE, CQA, CSQE and other alphabet soup. MBB and technical Fellow. Silver Snoopy nominee -Return to Flight/STS113 :shock: ...'course all that will never fit on my tombstone...

You ever make it to any of the annual ASQ conventions? One of the best parts of that organization. :mrgreen:

 

[bogus bill]

I have had hundreds of new and used guns pass through my hands and have been very lucky with about only two or three incidents that come to mind. The worst was a Belgium Browning Safari .308. It had the best LOOKING stock I ever had. The first time I took it to the range to try the stock split apart on me! I took it straight to a gunsmith friend and he found where the stock had a flaw and the company had tried to glue a chip to save the beautiful wood. It cracked from there. He offered to glue/repair the stock for me but I said no, sent it back. They made it good with no charge but gave me wood that was nice but not AS pretty.
All three times by different manufacturers I had no trouble getting them fixed at no cost to me. I cant say the same for vehicles I have bought.
I have sent back several guns that I had bought used with no argument.

 

[Pat-inCO]

There seem to be several items associated with product quality.

1) Those with a problem will yell first. Those with no problem will usually
say nothing. Thus we hear the most about problems.

2) Don't forget the Monday morning hang overs, and the Friday afternoon
rush to go home. Both of those affect product quality.

3) Capacity of the production line: If it is insufficient for the product demand,
the quality tends to diminish a bit. If the capacity is more than the demand,
in general, the quality will be a bit better.

Then there is the quantity. If Billy-Joe-Bob's Rhino getter has five problems
this year, how many did he produce? If it was ten, he has a serious problem.
If it was five of ten thousand, probably not.

 

[Rick Courtright]

Then there is the quantity. If Billy-Joe-Bob's Rhino getter has five problems
this year, how many did he produce? If it was ten, he has a serious problem.
If it was five of ten thousand, probably not.

Hi,

No arguments on any of the points made so far by several posters: they're all valid, from the standpoint of the PRODUCER.

However, what if I'm NOT the producer but the CUSTOMER/CONSUMER/USER? Now I'm the guy they make money off of by producing something I want to buy. If I don't want to buy it, they make no money. Next step, Sam's "empty building" problem.

So looking at quality control thru MY eyes, when I buy ONE of Billy-Joe-Bob's only five problem Rhino getters out of the ten thousand he built, where HIS failure rate is 0.05%--which is probably enviably good in his industry!--what is MY failure rate? ONE HUNDRED PER CENT! That's way below dismal and in certain cases, absolutely unacceptable. It doesn't matter how many good ones he made, I didn't get one of them. Now, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I do have a reasonably good eye for telling whether the problem is one of those that could happen to anyone, and no matter how good their QC/QA programs it could have slipped by, or if it's one caused by sloppy workmanship, design, or a combo of them. If it's one that could "just happen," I won't mind talking to Billy-Joe-Bob about it, and will be pleased if he stands behind it and gets me going, especially if it comes back with an apology for the inconvenience.

On the other hand, if it's a problem caused by slop, in choice of materials, design or workmanship, I really don't care how "good" the company promises to make it if I send it back--which is always at MY cost even if they pay the freight, because my TIME is involved--they failed a no brainer test the first time. Why should I suddenly be pleased when they finally get it to work, maybe the first time, sometimes not until after more than one try?

There's an old adage "There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over." The flip side of that coin is another oldie which says "Any job worth doing is worth doing well." Some subscribe to the first one. I don't. I was brought up with the second one.

We return now to production related questions on plastic vs metal per the OP...

Rick C

 

[rugnelli]

Polymer moldings aren't necessarily more accurate dimensionally but are cheaper even if made with higher scrap rates...

 

[PriseDeFer]

"I certainly have a preference for the traditional gun but I seem to hear less manufacturing QC issues with the plastic ones."
Plastic guns are created in the ecology of modern production capabilities and practices. They are creatures of the factories that make them. The traditional designs can date back to the end of the Victorian Age and are happiest when made in those old brick workshops by men who could and were given the time to marry the parts and make them sing.

 

[SamV]

Interesting points made. I thought GunnyGene and mohavesam seemed to hit the points I was curious about. I realize that there are many places and ways where a manufactured product can fail to meet specs. I don't want to be nostalgic about the old days too much. I have seen a lot of really amazing metal work and I have seen some pretty crude manufacturing too. More recently, look at Chinese tools 20 years ago and those today. They are still not German or Swiss levels, but the gap is closing.
I still suspect as mohavesam pointed out, that it appears that it is easier for a manufacturer to be consistent with polymer than metal. I point out the lcr line vs the sp101. Love the sp101, but you can find a bunch of QC complaints. The lcr, homely little gun that it is, seems to have few QC issues.

 

[contender]

QC has always been an issue for any manufacturer of anything. Even our beloved OM Rugers,,,,! Can we say "Plum or purple frames?" This was considered a flaw in these guns. Many were returned with the request to re-blue them. Or how about the "lightning strikes" of color in the metal in many OM's.
These things are now considered prizes to collectors.
I just spent about $760 for one of the new SBH's in 480.
I've wanted Ruger to build this gun for a long time. Yet,,, the grips were not to my liking on fit, and the front sight was too low FOR MY SELECTED BULLETS.
Now,,, some folks would complain & want them to "get it right." Me? I knew from other reports that the front sight was likely going to be low, and I knew the grip fit could be way off. I still purchased the gun, sight unseen until it arrived at my dealer. I didn't leave the shop before we'd swapped out the front sight with a taller one. Yet,,, after shooting it,,, that sight is still too short,,, for my bullets.
I got it home & promptly dug into my parts bins & found a set of grips that fit better,,,, until I can make a set of customs for it.
QC?
The grips could have been better, but the front sight issue would have to be settled by them shooting my selected cast loads. I can easily call Ruger, politely explain my issues, and I'm sure they would send me a taller front sight insert. And,,, if I send them the gun, I'm sure it would return with a better fitting set of grips. But, I purchased it because I wanted that gun, and I'm one of the folks who has asked for it for a long time. Plus my plans for it were to swap out the front sight with a different type anyway, as well as a set of custom grips.
Was I upset?
No.
QC departments have ranges of tolerances, and I will say that in many cases,,, the complaints we hear around here are not relayed to Ruger enough to the point where the head of QC gets the idea they need to focus a bit more on those specific areas when inspecting a firearm. If only a small part of the overall production gets negative feedback to them,,, they do not know to study ways to adjust things at the plant.
I'm as guilty as anybody who offers a quicker, cheaper & easier solution to an issue to those who have such a problem. Recent example about the checkering on a DA hammer. I mentioned a simple filing would fix it easily enough before they should contact Ruger.

One of the things I plan on speaking with Ruger folks about is some of these minor issues when I go to SHOT.

 

[blume357]

As mentioned QC is always a dilemma in manufacturing... here is how I see the conflict with corporate bean counting.... create a product... make it and implement a Quality Control section at the end that checks the item.... because the folks up the line know the item is going to be checked they work hard to make it perfect or at least passible.... if everybody is on board the bean counters after a while will realize the folks in Quality control are not really finding that many problems... then they look and say well if we are only getting this few mistakes it will be cheaper to just replace those if the consumer actually complains... and so Quality Control is reduced or deleted from the line..... guess what happens next?

 

[DeletedMember275]

As mentioned QC is always a dilemma in manufacturing... here is how I see the conflict with corporate bean counting.... create a product... make it and implement a Quality Control section at the end that checks the item.... because the folks up the line know the item is going to be checked they work hard to make it perfect or at least passible.... if everybody is on board the bean counters after a while will realize the folks in Quality control are not really finding that many problems... then they look and say well if we are only getting this few mistakes it will be cheaper to just replace those if the consumer actually complains... and so Quality Control is reduced or deleted from the line..... guess what happens next?

Hear, hear!

 

[DGW1949]

I gots two words that will help explain most this stuff for you guys:

Lean Manufacturing.

DGW

 

[steelshooterco]

Yup "Lean Manufacturing" exactly why the Big 3 ran Toyota, Honda, etc. out of business and why the remain dominant in the world auto industry!

Big difference between practicing it vs talking about it.

You design quality into a process, QC inspection is only 80% effective. Worse when some of the defects are based on perception in terms of fit and finish....

Off the soap box LOL

 

[sliclee]

Hope ya all had fun with the BS. These are guns we are speakin about!
An airplane flexes each time it goes up. How many flexes depends on the initial hight for the flight and weather which might cause the ship to go up and down a few more times a few more skin flexes.
Are you plastic heros shivering yet because your time is now.
Never before have plastic guns,PISTOLS, been used.
Cops don't use guns, some dummies will jump at that. The average cop uses his gun 20 rounds a year,
Citizens are now using plastic weekly some firing 100,some even 200 a week, lets see what happens now how many flexes until the first metal insert loosens or falls out.
Don't dare, tell me it won't happen.

One of the largest technical use of plastics took place in the ski industry. My luck I just started to learn to ski.
Ski boots then were made of a firm leather,after a few runs the leather softened and leather straps were wound around the boot and ski metal part easy to break a leg.
I got my first ski boot, I bought, had a plastic laminate around the boot. If you used it too much plastic wore off,out, was soft again. The following year the first fiberglass ski boot weighed 5 pounds, I bought, I loved skiing the freedom. This lead to new safety bindings and next year out came the first molded plastic ski boot, metal inserts which moved a lot would come out, thank god they were on it and fixed some uses of different combos of plastic only because of people like me that demanded fix it, I ski all day long and they did and made billions.
Will the gun industry try that? or is it already going on, do they know the answer already. I only own steel guns, steel barely flexes, it never changes, it can be counted on always being almost perfect, use what ever bullet,load you want, no
restrictions like on plastic guns.
Try something if you have 2 guns same caliber, same gun,one plastic,one metal. measure barrel bore dimensions, compare, which gun warns you of use of ammo. If you have a steel semi in 40 and one in plastic,see if you can use a corbon 150 grain
load at 1400fps in plastic.
A trick many manufacturers use to protect their gun is to make the bore 001 larger so barrel or gun doesn't break,maybe thats why your accuracy is not that good. I want the best protection I can afford, SO DO WE ALL.

 

[Rabon]

I think its more about the company than anything else, some build good stuff others not so much.