.357 mag "muzzle flash" testing

Help Support Ruger Forum:

shaffe48

Single-Sixer
Joined
Oct 11, 2009
Messages
136
BACKGROUND: I long suspected that complaints about muzzle flash in the .357 mag had less to do with the cartridge and more to do with the powders associated with the cartridge. Of course, this would be of little help unless respectable velocities can be generated with low flash powders.

There are several 'low flash' self defense cartridges on the market. One is the Hornady Critical Defense 125 gr .357 which generates a reported 1500 fps from an 8 inch barrel. This is similar to the velocities published in my 1980's Speer manual for 18.5 gr of 2400 and an 8 inch barrel, and 18.5 gr is above max for most modern manuals. I don't have a chronograph, but a web search has produced others' results around 1150-1200 for a LCR and 1300-1350 for a 3 inch GP. Velocities should be 1400+ for a 4" revolver. These would all be highly capable for SD!

EXPERIMENT: But is the Critical Defense actually low flash? We tested different cartridges in a LCR, 3" SP, and 4" GP, which is pretty much the full range of defensive revolvers. We tested a cheap factory 38 sp round (non +P), .357 Critical Defense, and a 125 gr bullet and 18.5 gr 2400 (17.5 gr for LCR) handload. These were shot after dark, snow on the ground so targets were visible, and after giving 20 minutes for our eyes to adjust.

RESULTS: Predictable. There was a noticeable increase in muzzle flash when moving from factory 38 sp to .357 critical defense. However, the difference was mostly noticed by the bystander and was about as big as the round to round variation in one ammo type. The shooter really had to focus on the muzzle flash to know the difference and neither impacted shooting in any noticeable way. The full 2400 loads caused momentary flash blindness in the shooter and a (very) much larger visible flash for the bystander. While these 2400 loads wouldn't be on my wish list, they definitely wouldn't stop me from doing my job even in pitch black.

CONCLUSION: When using modern factory self defense loads with low flash powders, high muzzle flash is not a very well founded critique of the .357 magnum. You would have to focus on the muzzle flash to notice the difference between a .38 and .357 and I don't think this will be happening. Further, the Critical Defense loads don't impact shooting with their muzzle flash. The 2400 loads did impact shooting with momentary flash blindness. However, if this is all the shooter has, they could work. The Hornady Critical Defense in .357 is a a great self defense round. It is powerful. It is practically guaranteed to expand. It is shootable by an experienced shooter in everything from an LCR to a GP. AND, NO, IT DOESN'T HAVE TOO MUCH MUZZLE FLASH!

Have a good week!
 

trouble

Single-Sixer
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Messages
261
Location
Va
In truth in the event of an engagement, one will not hear the blast or see ANY flash,period. Been there done that and it was a 4" Smith with Federal 125's, never saw a thing nor did I hear the rds discharge. This is worry over nothing kind of like switching loads for cold weather, if your load can't make it through a hoodie you have much bigger issues.
 

pisgah

Buckeye
Joined
Apr 17, 2006
Messages
1,633
Location
Upstate SC
A friend and I did similar experimentation years ago. Our conclusion -- muzzle flash is a complete non-issue in self defense ammo. The idea that you will be "flash-blinded" is ludicrous.
 

DonD

Single-Sixer
Joined
May 25, 2013
Messages
201
Interesting. My thought if you're using Hornady, go for the gusto and use Critical Duty. Works just fine in my 3" SP101. Don
 

shaffe48

Single-Sixer
Joined
Oct 11, 2009
Messages
136
I didn't think critical duty was available in 357 but I'll look for it.

Good to see the real world experience from trouble. I will still hope my experiments remain experimental.

I will say with the 2400 things did go blank for about a second or so after I fired it the first time but this is worst case scenario as far as ammo. Plus it was several hours after dark in a field.

None of this is to say that Critical Defense is the only self defense ammo out there...but that's what I use and that's what I had extras from previous years in. Trying to do the experiment on the cheap. Also, 357 isn't the answer for everyone for sure...but this stuff that no civilian should use the 357 because they'll be blinded or they can't shoot it accurately, well I just don't agree. I'm no Josey Wales and I do most of my shooting with guns I hope to use someday, but even I can shoot the 357 just fine.
 

wolfee

Blackhawk
Joined
Dec 23, 2008
Messages
746
Location
Denver
My point of view is contrary to the rest of the word, but if the situation is a home defense, in the dark, I would think you would want enough muzzle flash to light up the whole neighborhood--and a heavy dose of BOOM. I don't think the police use low flash powder in their flash/bang grenades.

btw, if you ever feel the need for a non lethal deterrent, try the Winchester 38 smokeless blanks. The muzzle blast/flash out of a snubbie will make you think you just pulled the lanyard on a 155 Howizter.
 

DonD

Single-Sixer
Joined
May 25, 2013
Messages
201
shaffe48 said:
I didn't think critical duty was available in 357 but I'll look for it.

Good to see the real world experience from trouble.

I have two boxes minus some rounds for experience. Not sure what you mean with the second sentence. I have fortunately never needed to use a gun in self defense, I only meant that the Critical Duty fired properly and extracted easily. Don
 

shaffe48

Single-Sixer
Joined
Oct 11, 2009
Messages
136
DonD said:
shaffe48 said:
I didn't think critical duty was available in 357 but I'll look for it.

Good to see the real world experience from trouble.

I have two boxes minus some rounds for experience. Not sure what you mean with the second sentence. I have fortunately never needed to use a gun in self defense, I only meant that the Critical Duty fired properly and extracted easily. Don

"Trouble" is the screen name of the first response. I separate my responses by paragraphs, not posts. I could have been clearer, based on what my post insinuated.
 

trouble

Single-Sixer
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Messages
261
Location
Va
I understood your reply just fine.

shaffe48 said:
DonD said:
shaffe48 said:
I didn't think critical duty was available in 357 but I'll look for it.

Good to see the real world experience from trouble.

I have two boxes minus some rounds for experience. Not sure what you mean with the second sentence. I have fortunately never needed to use a gun in self defense, I only meant that the Critical Duty fired properly and extracted easily. Don

"Trouble" is the screen name of the first response. I separate my responses by paragraphs, not posts. I could have been clearer, based on what my post insinuated.
 

s4s4u

Hunter
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
Messages
2,111
Location
MN, USA
I will say with the 2400 things did go blank for about a second

When I touch off 16 grains of H110 behind a 158 JHP at the edge of shooting hours......I think you can relate ;-)
 
Top