2400 load observation

R

Rclark

Hunter
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
3,875
City & State/Province
Butte, MT
Just a observation that I found. First a lot of references to using 2400 powder say to use a standard primer. Well, I tried that and then tried a magnum primer. I am sold on using the magnum primer with 2400. I get better results...

First while using a standard CCI-300 primer I was getting large spreads as I worked up a load for .45 Colt. Just didn't seem right.

18g 2400, CCI-300, 1101fps avg, 37 std, 189 spread (29 shots) (old 2400 powder)
18g 2400, CCI-350, 1181fps avg, 22 std, 94 spread (24 shots) (new 2400 powder)

Removing the one high and one low from the CCI-350 string, I got 1181 avg, 17 std, 68 spread

Just thought I'd pass this on ....

[edited] Added note that the first load was with 20 year old 2400 powder. Does make a difference!

The 10th post after this one (wish there was a number on each post) below has my final conclusion.
 
How old is old? The CCI-300 was shot with a 20 year old powder and I finished off the can. The CCI-350 was shot with a new can of 2400. Guess I should load up some cases with CCI-300s to shoot with the same batch to compare apples to apples to eliminate another variable... sigh...
 
What you have here is a good reason why one does load development. You can see evidence of what works better for you first hand.

It's good work you are doing Rclark. Keep up that good work. It is worth it.
 
My first 44 mag. used plenty of 2400. It did best with a CCI-350. This was 1975. I used a hand cast Lyman 429421 & 21 grs. of 2400.
 
I've used new or old 2400 at max load levels in 357 magnum for 20 years with a magnum primer.

When I find a load that works ... I stick with it.

REV
 
(Things change. Powders get reformulated. Like 2400. Primers get refined. Like CCI and Federal and Winchester and Remington primers. Nothing actually stays the same. Ay?)
 
In the .357 I've used both mag and std primers. To be honest I haven't noticed enough difference to be significant. This is on targets and general performance. I've never run any through a chronograph.

In the .45 Colt I use Win WLP with 18.5grs of Alliant 2400 under a 265gr Keith bullet for the cleanest most accurate warm load I've shot.
I do have one box loaded this way with some older Hercules 2400, but I'm saving that for the day I can run it side by side with the box of Alliant 2400 over a chronograph.

In my experiences 2400 doesn't need a mag primer. It just needs to be loaded to it's pressure sweet spot with a tight neck tension and a heavy crimp.

YMMV ... obviously.

Joe
 
Okay I used the same cases, same bullets, same powder. Only difference is the CCI-300 primer and the outside temp (46 rather than 70).

18g 2400, CCI-300, 1052fps avg, 28 std, 110 spread (29 shots)
Note that if I remove the one low velocity shot we have spread of 82.

For kicks I shot 3 rounds of the CCI-350 18g load over the same chrono and got 1167 average. So my chrono wasn't off. I went home and remeasured ... re-setup the scale and threw load out of powder measure and it was still 18g. Okay didn't mess that up!

From above we had :

18g 2400, CCI-350, 1181fps avg, 22 std, 94 spread (24 shots)

So conclusion is we have a 129fps difference between Regular and Magnum primer. Spread indeed was better with the new powder. Going to test one more way to make this conclusive. Going to load 15 reg, 15 mag all from the same powder measure at the same time. That will definitely tell me I loaded 'em correctly and indeed seeing what I am seeing.

[update] 15 and 15... Loaded and ready to test.... Now to find the time... Fun!
 
ok, validated the above results. Magnum primer makes big difference.

40F outside temp. New 2400 powder. Same powder measure setting for both set of cases, 15 with cci-300 and 15 with cci-350. Same bullet 255g SWC. Same setting for seating and crimp die (all 30 done at the same time).

Ruger BH 5 1/2" Barrel

18g 2400, CCI-300, 1022fps avg, 21 std, 82 spread (15 shots)
18g 2400, CCI-350, 1166fps avg, 27 std, 84 spread (15 shots)

Velocity difference is : 144fps

Now Brian Pearce calls this a tier 2 load. With the CCI-300 primer I would agree, but with the CCI-350 Magnum primer I think we moved into Tier 3 (Ruger Only Territory) . Draw your own conclusions of course . I know I have a blister on my middle finger knuckle because of today's shooting sessions..... You can feel the difference....

Load does seem plenty accurate with either primer. I was more interested in the chrono results than accuracy, but I didn't see anything out of the ordinary.
 
I agree that you are probably adding a bit extra pressure using the CCI 250 mag primer, and also about the jump into the tier 3 category.

Thanks for posting your results!
 
Got me curious. Isn't that part of this hobby?

Now we know 2400 is primer sensitive. So what about other powders.... Tonight I tried Unique

With 250g RNFP .45 Colt

8.5g Unique, CCI-300, 977fps avg, 17 std, 56 spread (15 shots)
8.5g Unique, CCI-350, 985fps avg, 21 std, 82 spread (15 shots)

8fps difference. Unique is not primer sensitive enough to matter. Now I know!

FYI, IMR 4227 should be used with a Magnum Primer. Checked my notes and this was the result with 255g SWC .45 Colt :

20g 4227, CCI-300, 888fps avg, 28 std
20g 4227, CCI-350, 1035fps avg, 15 std
 
I was just going over my primer inventory last night, and checked a bunch of loading manuals to see which calibers had data listed with standard, and also magnum primers.

There are some generally accepted recommendations that run across the board for magnum primers. Mainly, H110/WW296. After that, you just have to look at the specific data in the manuals you are using. Some data is worked up with magnum primers, and some is made up with standard primers. I was surprised to see powders like IMR4227 and IMR H4227 sometimes listed with standard primers. The same for HS6 and HS7, which I thought always required a magnum primer. 2400 and AA9 are the same way... some data is out there with mag primers, but a lot is available with standard primers too.

I also looked at high pressure handgun cartridges that specify the use of small rifle primers, like 454 Casull, 9x23 Winchester and 327 Federal mag. While the data suggests using small rifle primers, in some instances the data specifically states that magnum small rifle primers are not recommended (see the 327 Federal data on the Speer website).

http://www.speer-bullets.com/whatsnew/new_reloading_data.aspx
 
Rclark said:
Got me curious. Isn't that part of this hobby?

Now we know 2400 is primer sensitive. So what about other powders.... Tonight I tried Unique

With 250g RNFP .45 Colt

8.5g Unique, CCI-300, 977fps avg, 17 std, 56 spread (15 shots)
8.5g Unique, CCI-350, 985fps avg, 21 std, 82 spread (15 shots)

8fps difference. Unique is not primer sensitive enough to matter. Now I know!

FYI, IMR 4227 should be used with a Magnum Primer. Checked my notes and this was the result with 255g SWC .45 Colt :

20g 4227, CCI-300, 888fps avg, 28 std
20g 4227, CCI-350, 1035fps avg, 15 std
Click to expand...

FWIW, and I need to fire many more to verify, but I too once saw a nearly 100 fps increase with a CCI350 over a WLP in a stout W296 .45 load... :? (But tighter SD/ES with WLP)

Ain't "testing" grand? :wink: :lol:
 
some data is out there with mag primers, but a lot is available with standard primers too.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that is why I decided to run this test for my own knowledge base. I think over the next year, I will run similar tests on other powders that I use just to have a reference. For example, it is nice to know now for certain, with Unique I can use either type of primer and not worry about it (I always 'assumed' it though before I had a chrono, as I saw no difference at the bench or recoil).

Ain't "testing" grand?
Click to expand...
That it is ... that it is :) . It does give one peace of mind when all said and done and who knows ... maybe someday that magical load will appear that lays the bullets right on top of each other ..... a .452 hole at 25Y :) :P .
 
Rclark, just for craps and giggles, did you ever chrono the above 2400 loads with a WLP and compare them against the CCI 300 and/or the CCI 350?
 
with a WLP
Click to expand...
No I haven't. Only box of those primers in my cabinet is small ones. CCI seems to be more plentiful around here. If I get a chance though I will....
 
What temp were you testing at?

Oh whoops, I missed it. 46 degrees.

Yeah, I could see primer making a difference when it was colder on those powders.

In 90+ degree Alabama heat, I don't see a big difference.
 
In 90+ degree Alabama heat, I don't see a big difference.
Click to expand...
Oh sure ... now I have to repeat the test .... making more work...err fun for me :P . Keep the truck motor running, and heat the cab of my truck up to max. Keep the shells in the heat of the blower. Let sit for 15 minutes or so till shells are very warm to the touch.... Then shoot some warm up rounds to get the the gun hot. Then load gun in the cab and immediately go out and shoot the rounds over the chrono... :) . Simulate conditions?
 
I havn't proved it for myself, but Taffin tested some new 2400 against some 20 -30 year old & is convinced that the new is about 7-8% faster.
 
Rick, what gun and barrel length are you shooting and do you have any data on the pressures? I am looking at the data with Unique.


T J B
 
8.5g of Unique is top end of loads listed in one of my reloading manuals. Therefore it is within SAMMI pressures for .45 Colt. No more than 14,000psi.

Unless otherwise stated, my tests are all in a 5 1/2" barrel.

Richard
 
Rick I was wondering on the velocity you achieved with the 8.5 grains of Unique. With that velocity I would expect far more pressure .am I missing something ? how is the crimp and what is the seating depth?

Thank You
T J B
 
Well, I been told that before :) . I've tested my chrono with .22LR and seems to be in the ballpark of what's on the box. Still, I suspect it 'may' be running a bit high ... I bought a set of test weights to make sure my powder scale is reading correctly and it is (that's good to know!).... Velocity does have some different variables, like barrel gap, throat size, what bullet.... So you got me. I'd like to run over another chrono, but I've never seen anyone else out with one when I am shooting.....

FYI, Brian Pearce the .44spec Skeeter load 7.5g Unique pushing a 255g Keith in Lipseys flattop 5 1/2" barrel at 960fps. My average with a 240 SWC bullet is 1033fps in my 5 1/2" flattop.... That is 73fps diff, and I use a slightly lighter bullet (how much 15g difference makes I don't know).... Taffin tests a 240 in 6 1/2" barrel at 975fps. Other references seem to run from 950fps to 1000fps... So my guess is I am running high. Maybe even as high at 70fps over....

Using 255g SWC:
Lets look at 8.5g. Another guy got 925 in 5 1/2" barrel. I get 977. 52fps diff.

HS-6 13g I get 1084. Someone else got 1087fps from 7.5" barrel. Given you lose 15-25fps per inch, I should be around 1030. So diff could be up to 54fps.

So 'empirically' I think my numbers are a bit high. Looks like 50-70fps?

My crimp is never 'heavy'. Seating depth is always set to crimp into the crimp groove. I've never bothered with COL in my straight wall cases.... The crimp groove is there for a reason :) . Only time I check COL is with .45ACP or bullets that don't have a crimp groove.
 
Did another back to back test with CCI-300 and CCI-350 primers this morning. Again same powder throw, same cases, same bullet (255 SWC), same crimp. Just different primer. Accuracy wise it 'looked' about the same. Felt recoil about the same.

13.0g HS-6, CCI-300, 1116fps avg, 24 std, 96 spread (29 shots)
13.0g HS-6, CCI-350, 1139fps avg, 17 std, 52 spread (28 shots)
 
Rclark said:
8.5g of Unique is top end of loads listed in one of my reloading manuals. Therefore it is within SAMMI pressures for .45 Colt. No more than 14,000psi.

Unless otherwise stated, my tests are all in a 5 1/2" barrel.

Richard
Click to expand...

I have a 1961 Speer manual which lists 10.0 grs (hercules) UNQ, 250 gr for 1,000 fps in a Colt SAA with 4 5/8" barrel...Not a "recommendation" on my part, just sayin'...
(BTW, the sixgun used was originally a 12" Buntline and was cut down! :shock: )

FWIW I've seen 1100+ fps in my BH with 11 grs UNQ and Lyman 454190 (260 gr) but prefer HS-6 for that velocity... :wink:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

4
300 grain Laser Cast 2400 load.
Replies
1
Views
409
Cal30 1906
C
X
Heavy weight 44 special load
Replies
10
Views
365
needsmostuff
needsmostuff
badguybuster
A promising 300blk load
Replies
18
Views
522
contender
contender
G
What's your 32 mag load
Replies
18
Views
849
JCK
J
Hvymax
I did a little old fashioned load work up this morning
Replies
3
Views
91
needsmostuff
needsmostuff

Latest posts

Back
Top