22lr Federal question

[blume357]

Here's the back ground...

while shooting my highly modified 10/22 last year I pleasently discoverd that if I shot Federal Champion game shot in it I could get 1/2" groups at 50 yards... much better than any of the other ammo I had been trying.

that was the good news... then I discoverd that this Federal 'Champion' stuff was not easy to find... it's in a blue box and cost much more than the bulk pack or regular stuff.... did find some earlier in the year at my local gun show, not the original hollow point 36 grain but solid 40 grain and it shoots better than the average stuff too...

Last month I was at Wally World with a friend and bought a bulk pack of regular Federal Bulk (550 rounds) for something like 18 or 19 bucks...

last weekend I found the Champion stuff at the gun show in a bulk pack (525 rounds) for $25 ....

Here's the deal (sorry to be so long winded) the data on the back of both boxes is exactly the same... except for the lot numbers... 36grains... copper plated hollow point... 1260 FPS at muzzle, 1000 FPS at 100 yards... energy and drop the same... only the lot number ... load number and printing on the box is different... I've looked at the rounds in each box and they look the same too.

I plan to get to my gun club and see if there is a difference but in the mean time can somebody add insight into this?

 

[recumbent]

Lot numbers will vary, when the MFR makes ammo they make it in lots and print the lot numbers on each box.

 

[Snake45]

Lots of people have found the Federal Champions shoot very, very well. CZ rifles especially seem to like them. Mine has shot some legit 1" groups at 100 yards with them, and it's the ONLY kind of ammo that shoots halfway decently in my 77/22V.

But I'm confused--I haven't bought any lately, but all the ones I've bought have been plain lead, NOT copper-washed like the Fed Bulk.

Most Walmarts have the Fed Champions.

All the ones I've bought have been in 50-round boxes, not in bulk packaging. What's the part number on your box?

 

[berettapistols]

The Federal Bulk really does it for me, I know every 22 is different but in my MKII & 10/22 it runs great & is quite accurate..
On the other hand it won't cycle 100% in my Jennings J-22 were CCI Mini Mags will..Go Figure..

Ruger MKII Bathed in Federal Wal-Mart Bulk Ammo

 

[ranger1]

Load No. is the key to determine which type of ammo your looking for.

Here's a link to Federal Ammo.

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/rimfire.aspx

I like (No 810 Solid Game Shok), (No 510 Champion Target) and (No 922A Gold Medal).

 

[CraigC]

Oops, I was thinking Automatch, 745 is indeed plated.

 

[ranger1]

I know that Federal 745 is not plated. I bought a case of it a couple months ago at only $16.50 per box of 525. Semi-local shop has a few pallets of the stuff.

That's interesting. The box I have of 745's is copper plated. (525 count)

 

[Snake45]

The Federal Bulk really does it for me, I know every 22 is different but in my MKII & 10/22 it runs great & is quite accurate.

A couple years ago, I benchrest tested 6 kinds of cheap .22 ammo in more than two dozen different .22 rifles, and the Fed Bulk was dead last in accuracy in more than half of them, and in the bottom 3 in almost all. The only standout exception was in my Anschutz 64, in which that stuff was not only the most accurate, that combination produced THE TIGHTEST groups of the entire test! Go figure....

 

[CraigC]

Fed Bulk was dead last in accuracy in more than half of them, and in the bottom 3 in almost all.

More proof that there are very, very few hard and fast rules when it comes to .22LR's. You have to test everything to find what your guns like. Federal bulk has always tested very well in my guns for accuracy. I just don't use quite as much of it as Remington because it does not cycle some autoloaders and its dimple makes it a poor game bullet.

 

[polseszczyk]

I found the same thing. Looks like it is the same. I don't have a lot of experience, but they both shot very well in all my MK III's.

Samuel

 

[blume357]

that link to the federal ammo information page is kind of interesting.. only problem is the bulk pack I bought from Wally World is not listed on there.... load No 750.... I'm suspecting it is the champion stuff listed as load 745 and just got a different box and load number for Walmart.

 

[ranger1]

that link to the federal ammo information page is kind of interesting.. only problem is the bulk pack I bought from Wally World is not listed on there.... load No 750.... I'm suspecting it is the champion stuff listed as load 745 and just got a different box and load number for Walmart.

I have a box of 750's also, (550 count Value Pack). I didn't buy mine from Walmart..I don't shop there.

Could be a special promo or something!

 

[Snake45]

that link to the federal ammo information page is kind of interesting.. only problem is the bulk pack I bought from Wally World is not listed on there.... load No 750.... I'm suspecting it is the champion stuff listed as load 745 and just got a different box and load number for Walmart.

Usually when speaking of "Federal Champion" .22s, most people are talking about the 510s, which AFAIK is only sold in boxes of 50 or bricks of 10 boxes, not in bulk. These are 40 grain roundnose IIRC (I'd have to doublecheck that) but are definitely NOT copper-washed. Before about 2005 or 2006, these were sold in red boxes with the name "Lightning" with the same part number, 510. My own testing proved to my satisfaction that the Champions and the Lightnings were exactly the same ammo, as they shot exactly the same in several guns I carefully tested them in, and could even mix the two "different" ammos in the same group with no increase in group size.

 

[Dan in MI]

A tip from an old competitor. When you find a lot of brand x that shoots GO BUY EVERY BOX OF THAT LOT YOU CAN FIND.

Regarding the Anschutz shooting well with the cheap stuff. Sometimes that slighty over spec stuff works well out of a match grade gun. In the early 80's there was a bunch of CHEAP Chinese .22 ammo floating around. Cost under $5 a brick. SHOT LIKE IT HAD EYES, out dang near every gun it touched. Of course once word got out it disappeared.

 

[blume357]

this is interesting because I never knew about lot or load numbers before....

load number: does that change or it is the same over the years?

lot number is obviously like a serial number and how do you go back and buy more these days when pretty much what comes into a store is all there is and at least for me once I find out something shoots well... a week or so after buying a box or two then by the time I get back the rest is gone.

 

[Snake45]

Load number (stock number) is supposed to be constant over the years. Makers sometimes change something about the "formula" but usually if they make a significant change, the new ammo gets a new stock number. Stock number also has to do with the packaging. For example, those cheap Fed Bulks have several different stock numbers depending on the packaging but it's all the same ammo.

Lot number CAN be very important. Makers sometimes have to recall a bad lot and they put out the word (or post it on their websites) by lot number. In .22s, Winchester has had the most recalls in the last few years that I know of.

Lot numbers will be on the box somewhere. It's on the back on Fed Bulks, on an inside flap on Winchesters, and I forget where on Rem Golden Bullets.

As far as the accuracy of different lot numbers (and I've shot something like 100,000 rounds of cheap .22 ammo since 2004), in my experience it's rare though not unknown to find significant accuracy variations among lot numbers of cheap .22s. Now, with MATCH ammo in MATCH GRADE rifles, people who are at that level can often tell differences and seek out "good lots," but for those of us shooting cheap ammo in more "normal" guns, it's very rare to come across an odd lot that more or less accurate than the run of the mill.

Functioning is another matter completely, and there are defintiely "bad lots" in the cheap .22s. Bad lots can have either a higher than normal dud rate, or a wide variety of powder/power levels in one box, or a high percentage with low power, or a notable number with oversize bullets or brass (giving chambering problems), or insufficient lube (giving excessive leading), or any number of other problems. Bad lots used to be rare but I noticed that since the "ammo famine" started in 2007 there are a lot more of them, and I can only assume that the factories are now shipping ammo that formerly wouldn't have made through normal QA/QC standards. I've had problems with individual lots of Federal, Winchester, and Remington ammo, so the problem is widespread. All you can do when you hit a "bad lot" is write down the number and NEVER buy any more of that lot again.

Turnover at Walmart (at least at my local) is so high that it's most probable that you'll be buying different lot numbers from week to week, but I remember in 2008, Rem cranked out a bunch of Golden Bullets that weren't worth a crap and that was the only lot number my Walmart had ALL DAMN SUMMER. Had to dip into my EOTWAWKI stash to get through the year! :evil: Finally in the fall some decent lots started showing up again.

The nice lady at the Walmart gun counter has learned to put up with me checking lot numbers, especially on the Winchester XPerts, which requires opening the box. But when you find a bad lot, you HAVE to do it, because ammo is the ONE thing Walmart will not refund or exchange on.

 

[ranger1]

I just compared the Ballistic Information labels on the Federal Load No's 745 and 750.
The Load No 750 being the Wally World exclusive?

There is a slight difference:

Load No 750: Velocity = 1260 FPS @ Muzzle, 1000 FPS @ 100 yds
Energy = 125 ft lbs @ Muzzle, 80 ft lbs @ 100 yds
Drop = 5.6" @ 100 yds

Load No 745: Velocity = 1280 FPS @ Muzzel, 1020 FPS @ 100 yds
Energy = 131 ft lbs @ Muzzle, 83 ft lbs @100 yds
Drop = 3.4" @ 100 yds

 

[Snake45]

Load No 750: Velocity = 1260 FPS @ Muzzle, 1000 FPS @ 100 yds
Energy = 125 ft lbs @ Muzzle, 80 ft lbs @ 100 yds
Drop = 5.6" @ 100 yds

Load No 745: Velocity = 1280 FPS @ Muzzel, 1020 FPS @ 100 yds
Energy = 131 ft lbs @ Muzzle, 83 ft lbs @100 yds
Drop = 3.4" @ 100 yds

Those velocity differences are insignificant. You could get that difference shooting the same ammo on two different days, or from two different rifles. Hell, there's probably more than 20 fps of extreme spread in every box of those things.

Something's wrong with that drop number. 5.6" is in the ballpark for 100 yard drop with a 50 yard zero (I usually tell people to expect 6" to 7"--this can vary WIDELY depending on a dozen different factors, not the least of which is actual sight height above the bore line), but the 3.4" number is completely whack. Either the zero point for that figure is much farther out--70 or 75 yards, maybe--or someone gave the figure for 50 yard RISE with a 100 yard zero. Sight a .22LR at 100 yards and it will print somewhere around 3" high at 50 (again, that's a ballpark number and YOUR gun could show as much as an inch either way).

 

[don44]

Real good posts and very informative.

 

[powwowell]

From what I have read and experienced, Load 750 is the Walmart Load # for 745. Also, Walmart Load # 510B is the same as Load #510. I think the Walmart 510B is sold as Champions.

 

[ranger1]

From what I have read and experienced, Load 750 is the Walmart Load # for 745.

You are probably correct, but as I noted earlier, their is a very slight difference in the ballistic data.

Also, Walmart Load # 510B is the same as Load #510. I think the Walmart 510B is sold as Champions.

The 510 is a 40 gr lead rn Champion.
The 745 is a 36 gr cp hp Champion.

 

[Snake45]

From what I have read and experienced, Load 750 is the Walmart Load # for 745.

You are probably correct, but as I noted earlier, their is a very slight difference in the ballistic data.

As I noted earlier, more likely that the only real difference is in the ink on the box. :wink:

 

[ranger1]

As I noted earlier, more likely that the only real difference is in the ink on the box. :wink:

My next door neighbor works for Federal Cartridge. Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I'm going to ask him this question......not that it really matters. :idea:

 

[Snake45]

As I noted earlier, more likely that the only real difference is in the ink on the box. :wink:

My next door neighbor works for Federal Cartridge. Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I'm going to ask him this question......not that it really matters. :idea:

Fabulous! Let us know what he says.

I'm particularly interested in that "3.4 drop at 100 yards" figure. Does the box give the zero distance on that one? If it's 50 yards, ask your neighbor how they got that load to drop only half as much as any other .22LR load you can name. :wink:

 

[ranger1]

Fabulous! Let us know what he says.

I'm particularly interested in that "3.4 drop at 100 yards" figure. Does the box give the zero distance on that one? If it's 50 yards, ask your neighbor how they got that load to drop only half as much as any other .22LR load you can name. :wink:

I will be sure to report my findings! I'll print this thread so he can answer all of our questions

My box does not give a zero distance, just the drop a 100 yds.

I wonder if he can get me a deal on ammo.....can't hurt to ask. :idea:

 

[blume357]

I just compared the Ballistic Information labels on the Federal Load No's 745 and 750.
The Load No 750 being the Wally World exclusive?

There is a slight difference:

Load No 750: Velocity = 1260 FPS @ Muzzle, 1000 FPS @ 100 yds
Energy = 125 ft lbs @ Muzzle, 80 ft lbs @ 100 yds
Drop = 5.6" @ 100 yds

Load No 745: Velocity = 1280 FPS @ Muzzel, 1020 FPS @ 100 yds
Energy = 131 ft lbs @ Muzzle, 83 ft lbs @100 yds
Drop = 3.4" @ 100 yds

ranger.... I need to go back and see what I wrote and also I want to know where you got the info on the Load No 750... it was not listed on the page from Federal I found...

also and most important... on my boxes of 745 and 750 the FPS are exactly the same, 1260, on both. All the specs are exactly the same... no difference. Here's the proof:

 

[ranger1]

I just compared the Ballistic Information labels on the Federal Load No's 745 and 750.
The Load No 750 being the Wally World exclusive?

There is a slight difference:

Load No 750: Velocity = 1260 FPS @ Muzzle, 1000 FPS @ 100 yds
Energy = 125 ft lbs @ Muzzle, 80 ft lbs @ 100 yds
Drop = 5.6" @ 100 yds

Load No 745: Velocity = 1280 FPS @ Muzzel, 1020 FPS @ 100 yds
Energy = 131 ft lbs @ Muzzle, 83 ft lbs @100 yds
Drop = 3.4" @ 100 yds

ranger.... I need to go back and see what I wrote and also I want to know where you got the info on the Load No 750... it was not listed on the page from Federal I found...

also and most important... on my boxes of 745 and 750 the FPS are exactly the same, 1260, on both. All the specs are exactly the same... no difference. Here's the proof:

My box of 745's is different than yours. The 750 is the same. I will try to post a picture like yours if my camera will do the job.

Also check out this link:
http://pnwguns.com/auto-rifles/211-new-posts-federal-22-ammo-load-745-vs-load-750-a.html

 

[ranger1]

Blume357,
Here's my proof they are different. The only thing I can figure is that one of our 745's has an older Lot Number.


Load No. 750, Walmart Value Pack 550 Count

Load No. 745, Champion Value Pack 525 Count

 

[Tommy Kelly]

I have shot the federal bulk ammo for years and never looked at the figures on the box. It performs well in all my 22's. I have a anschutz biathalon rifle a cz452 and a 1022 heavy bbled gun and all shoot very tight groups with the cheap stuff. I can usually put 10 shots in a spot about the size of a 45 cal hole but do have a flyer every once in a while but its never over a bullet width off of the group. I also shoot a mk III and a couple of single sixes. I buy my bullets at walmart exclusively for my 22's and pick up a bulk box most every time I go in. I probably have 10 or 12 boxes on hand now of 550's. Old habbits are hard to break my son shot 22's a lot and never ran out of bullets and I never saw him buy any when he was home he's grown and gone now and my ammo last a lot longer now.

 

[ranger1]

ranger.... I need to go back and see what I wrote and also I want to know where you got the info on the Load No 750... it was not listed on the page from Federal I found...

also and most important... on my boxes of 745 and 750 the FPS are exactly the same, 1260, on both. All the specs are exactly the same... no difference. Here's the proof:

Blume357,

I looked at some Federal Load No. 745's today at Gander Mountain, and they were labeled exactly like yours. The box I have is about a year old, so obviously during the past several months, they changed the ballistics for this particular Load No.

BTW, they were $19.99.