2 ammo problems in 1 day!

[sebtool]

Went shooting with my son on Sunday, checked out a Consevation Dept. free range about 30 miles away. No shade( :? !!!!) but a nice set up.

Took my Mini 14, a couple of boxes of Winchester 55 gr FMJ, and a box of 1000 55 gr FMJ commercial reloads from a company in New England that I bought about 1 yr ago. Shot the Winchesters up at 100 yuds, the old 180 series shot great! Broke into the commercial reloads, my son was shooting, had a 20 round clip loaded. Sounded a little loud, and than the gun jammed. I cleared the gun, and a primer cup and anvil came out of the action! I looked at the already fired cases, and out of the 15 or so shots fired, 7 primers were gone, and 2 more primers had been pierced!!! I'd already culled a couple of shells that had a wrinkle in the case neck when this happened. Anybody run into this before? I can't blame the gun, it's never had a problem digesting ammo safely before. I've never seen a pierced primer before either. Most of the cases were R-P, with a few Federals. I need to go back thru my records. Hopefully I still have the contact info for the clowns that loaded this junk!!!!! :evil:

Shot a couple other guns, then pulled out my old Charter Arms Bulldog. I had a new box of MagTech Cowboy action loads, didn't realize they were aluminum cased when I bought them, or I would have passed. IIRC, a fairly mild load, around 750 fps. The 1st cylinder fired 4 shots fine, then didn't want to index the cylinder for the 5th. I unloaded, and the bullet, powder and case from the 5th shot fell out in my hand!!!! Magtech will be hearing from me!!!

A good, although HOT day, except for a couple of glitches. :roll: Anybody else run into problems like this, or is it just me????

 

[Sagebrush Burns]

Was the ammo sitting in the sun? That can dramatically increase the effects you're describing. I discovered this the hard way some years ago while prairie dog hunting when loads I used for years suddenly started blowing primers. Keep the ammo out of direct sunlight and the problem went away.

 

[sebtool]

You may be right, I hadn't really thought of that. The ammo was in a range bag, out of direct sunlight until we got it out to load the mags, but it was HOT.
The primers didn't just pop out, the pocket was deformed, and the rims were gouged! I'd never seen anything like it.
Need less to say, we put the Mini away. it's a fun gun, and a pretty decent shooter. I shot a couple of NRA High Power matches with it back in the'90's, and while I didn't stand much of a chance against the ARs and M1As, the rifle acquitted itself pretty well.

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

Dunno how hot it was at your range, but I routinely load "summer" ammo for desert and hunting trips during times when 100 deg F and above are common. Even in the "shade" of the trunk of a car or camper shell, temps will still be quite high, too...

I've found certain "Starting" loads can sometimes act like "Max" loads under those conditions.

Just thinking out loud, you know?

Rick C

 

[Bucks Owin]

Yikes!! :shock: I would certainly cease and desist on those roman candle reloads immediately! Pierced/blown primers indicate that pressures are in the 70K+ range...

(And the wrinkled necks don't speak very highly of QC either... :roll: )

I'd be-atch very loudly to the outfit assembling them little bombs... :x (If they aren't out of business already)

 

[sebtool]

Good points Rick. It was right at 100, with a heat index around 112-114, according to the weather guru type talking heads. The range is kind of down in a bowl, as they built berms up on 3 sides. And the concrete benchs were in the open, no shade, so the heat would have reflected up off there a bit. The old guy (me!) was pretty well tapped out after about 2-1/2 hrs, let my boy shoot for awhile and it was time to go.

I guess the temp did play a role. Especially if the .223 was loaded warm to start with, which I don't have any data unfortunately. And it was the 1st time I'd shot any of it. Could that be enough to deform the primer pockets, and pierce the primers??? :shock:

I guess there's no way to know what type of pressure increase there was, but it had to be pretty severe. The Winchester stuff acted fine, not even any flattened primers...

Glad it was a Ruger we were shooting!

 

[Rick Courtright]

I guess the temp did play a role. Especially if the .223 was loaded warm to start with, which I don't have any data unfortunately. And it was the 1st time I'd shot any of it. Could that be enough to deform the primer pockets, and pierce the primers??? :shock:

I guess there's no way to know what type of pressure increase there was, but it had to be pretty severe. The Winchester stuff acted fine, not even any flattened primers...

Hi, sebtool

Just a couple more "random thoughts" here...

Some powders seem to be a bit more temperature sensitive than others. I remember Winchester talking about the temp range their factory ammo was tested for many years ago, and I forget the lower end, but the top was about 140 deg F. I used to think that was "extreme" as it wasn't likely I was gonna be shooting in Death Valley a lot during the summer. But, while "outside air" temps that high are pretty unlikely, I later learned temps inside a closed car can easily hit 130 deg F or so during the summer around here, so maybe that's not such a big "safety margin" after all?

Since there's already a question just on the visual QC of those reloads (and you had good results from the Winchester factory ammo), I'd be worried the internal QC is suspect, too. Is the powder charge appropriate to the bullet/primer/case combo, both in type and quantity, have the guys reloading it paid close attention to keeping everything "to spec" (for example, how are they charging the powder, and could the settings have changed?), and has their ammo ever been "lab-tested?"

Are you a handloader, or do you know one close by who can help you? Either way, you'll have access to a scale, and it would be interesting to start by weighing out several loaded rounds (match the headstamps, cuz the brass weights can vary between brands) just to see if they're relatively consistent. A variation of a grain or so probably wouldn't raise eyebrows, but if you're seeing several grains difference, that could be "a sign" of something more sinister.

I 'spose you could take a couple of rounds apart and look inside for fun, but it's hard to tell what you're looking at as far as positive ID of the actual powder or primer. What if someone grabbed some pistol primers for the rifle cases? Those could possibly pierce even at "normal for .223" pressures. Or grabbed the wrong can of powder? Those things aren't so easy to tell. But it only takes a couple of "small" errors added up to be on the way to those scary numbers Bucks warns about!

In the mean time, I think I'd take the "err on the side of caution" way out and put those reloads on the shelf until you can contact the loaders and see what's what. Your rifle--and YOU!--are worth more than whatever it will cost to get some more factory ammo that you know is good!

Best of luck, and it will be interesting to see what else you learn!

Rick C

 

[J Miller]

I solved my heat related ammo problems by taking my ammo to the shooting area in an ice chest. The insulation kept it at a reasonable temp.

Joe

 

[Bucks Owin]

Temperature has an effect, yes. But not to the point of blowing the primer out of the case! I've fired a featherweight .243 M70 barrel until WAY too hot to touch in hot and heavy varmit shooting in triple digit CA temps. I've seen some extra primer flattening when the load is near max in the first place. But the case certainly doesn't expand in the head/web to the point the primer blows out! Or even extrude up around the firing pin...(crater)

JMO..

 

[TaterInTheSouth]

This box was shot in 35-40 degree weather, "factory ammo" I don't know if you
Can see it but, every primer has leaked, and one is gone..
they were shot in a Handy or NEF I can't remember now.

 

[sebtool]

Well, 1 thing I've learned so far is to get your facts straight! The .44 Spl ammo I used was TrailBlazer by Speer, not MagTech! I do have some MagTech Cowboy loads, and they've all shot quite well to date. My mistake. Shame a guy from MagTech had to point it out! He replied very promptly to my email, and tactfully assured me that they produced no aluminum cased ammo.

MagTech - 1
sebtool - 0
CCI-Speer - 0

Oh well..... :? Guess I'll have to buy another box to make up for it! Now we'll see what Speer has to say....

 

[sebtool]

Got a reply from CCI/Speer about a week after I emailed them. Copied and pasted below, along with the portion of my original email I sent them. This will definitely influence my purchase of factory ammo from here on out. Doubt there will any new CCI in my ammo cans!

"Steve: you have a product that was made for the Cowboy Action Shooters, last made in ~ 2004. The lead bullets may pull from the cases under recoil, this can be a result of the crimp on the bullet, the lead bullet not holding the bullet well enough to experience the recoil or the shooter not having a stiff enough hold on the gun.

Blazer until quite recently has always been loaded in an aluminum case and I believe that is on the packaging. The packaging today has a comment "Blazer uses a non-reloadable case material made from high-strength, aircraft grade aluminum alloy." We now have Blazer Brass, unfortunately, no loading in 44 Spl.

You may have to shoot the remainder of the box by not filling the cylinder and shooting them 2-3 at a time.

Shoot Straight!
Coy Getman
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501
CCI/Speer Sr. Technical Coordinator
(866) 286-7436




-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 6:19 PM
To: cciexpert
Subject: CCI Ammo - Ask the Expert Form



I went shooting with my son on Sunday, and took along my Charter Arms Bulldog and a new box of your Trailblazer 200 gr LFN. The 1st 4 shots of the cylinder went off fine, then the gun locked up, and wouldn't index to the last cylinder. I popped the cylinder open, and got 4 fired cases, 1 primed case, a bullet and a handful of powder! At $25-$27 a box, I sure didn't expect that. I also didn't expect aluminum cases. I didn't realize they weren't brass until I opened the box. Guess I didn't read the fine print. I do reload, and prefer to buy loaded ammo instead of new brass.
2 things - Is this ammo safe to shoot? Apparently there's not much of a crimp. 2nd - I'd appreciate it if in the future your aluminum cased ammo was plainly marked as such. I would have paid more, and have, for reuseable cases, instead of scrap."

I replied to the effect that if the customer service in my shop was as 'customer friendly', or quality consciousness on the same level as the CCI/Speer conglomerate, I wouldn't have lasted the 1st year after I opened up! I'm sure they won't miss my small contributions to their coffers tho. Kinda curious how that worked out for all those cowboy action shooters! Might be why it was pulled.

I found the info from the manufacturer on the .223, and I'll be contacting them shortly.