Why are all of Ruger's 9mms Polymer Frames Now?

[dacaur]

Now prove to me that the polymer guns are better and that the manufacturers made them to be better and not cheaper.

Just because something is cheaper, doesn't mean its not also better. I'll tell you what, If I were making guns, and found a frame material that was not only cheaper, but also better, I would jump on it too.

No one said polymer is better for ALL guns. But it cannot be denied that for a lightweight gun, its not just lighter, but also tougher, more abrasion resistant, and will last longer than aluminum. I already proved it in a previous post, but ill post it again just for you.

Polymer is better than aluminum in a lot of ways. Aluminum WILL eventually fail, no matter how lightly it is used. It has a finite fatigue life. Steel has an infinite fatigue life. Take a steel bar and an aluminum bar, both rated at 10,000 psi, apply 5000 psi to both, then let off, do that over and over again, the steel bar will last forever, the aluminum WILL eventually snap, even though you never exceeded its rated capacity, thats just how aluminum is. Polymer, like steel has an infinite fatigue life, so in all truthfulness, a polymer framed gun WILL last longer than an aluminum framed gun.

The same tired argument's been made time and again regarding rifles and wood vs polymer stocks.... Polymer is better hands down, yet wood still has its place because its pretty, and is good enough, and there are lots of people that "wont own a plastic gun!". If wood were not pretty, do you think we would still see wood rifle stocks?

 

[Cheesewhiz]

First off, calling these guns "plastic" is incorrect. If they were truly made of plastic, I would definitely agree that they are crap, but polymer is a different animal altogether. The different between plastic and polymer is way more than the difference between steel and aluminum.

dacaur, I'm going to choose to refer back to this line again, I think it says all that needs to be.

I worked in R&D and Practical Engineering for a company that invented plastics, elastomers, composites and polymer chemical compositions. I also worked heavily with common and exotic metals at that same company. I still own some joint patents from my work there. The company was privately owned and sold itself off some years back.

I'm not being "smug" but there really aren't many in this country that have the comparative exposure to this subject that I have.

I have no problems with the use of modern plastics in manufacturing of guns but I prefer a well made metal framed pistol, sorry.
I just find it funny when someone comments on the lack of a 'good' metal framed pistol anymore he is treated as a heretic by a plastic fanatic. There are some that will never understand or enjoy the qualities of a metal framed gun, I feel sorry for those people.

 

[mdmaysp95]

I grew up on metal,My children on polymer.Wonder what my grand kids will shoot. carbon fiber lazer things.

 

[Sal1950]

I grew up on metal,My children on polymer.Wonder what my grand kids will shoot. carbon fiber lazer things.

Yea, Where's my "Death Ray" pistol? Flash Gordon had them back in the 50s when I was a kid.
Sal

 

[WAYNO]

I also prefer a metal-framed gun. That said, I do own a couple of "plastic" guns. I do not see any more purchases of plastic-framed guns in my near future.

Us older folks, who may be ignorantly set in our ways, buy what we want to buy. The younger folks, who have grown up with much more plastic, question much less, the technology and aesthetics of plastic guns.

Well, the younger folks will be taking over the world, and if the gun companies can sell these folks a gun that is cheaper to make, and the buyers like buying them, then that is the future of the firearms industry.

I can remember very well, the early years of plastic-stocked rifles. The folks older than me refused to accept them. Years later, I seldom take a gun into the field that doesn't have a synthetic stock. I do see the advantages of a synthetic stock.

So, I guess change is inevitable. It doesn't mean that because of any of my preferences, or because I'm selective in how I spend my money, I'm a bad person. :roll:

It also does not mean that folks that like plastic-framed guns are bad people. That will not keep me, however, from sharing my old-school guns with the wonder-nine crowd, and having them say, WOW!

WAYNO.

 

[Flash]

Now prove to me that the polymer guns are better and that the manufacturers made them to be better and not cheaper.

Just because something is cheaper, doesn't mean its not also better. I'll tell you what, If I were making guns, and found a frame material that was not only cheaper, but also better, I would jump on it too.

No one said polymer is better for ALL guns. But it cannot be denied that for a lightweight gun, its not just lighter, but also tougher, more abrasion resistant, and will last longer than aluminum. I already proved it in a previous post, but ill post it again just for you.

Polymer is better than aluminum in a lot of ways. Aluminum WILL eventually fail, no matter how lightly it is used. It has a finite fatigue life. Steel has an infinite fatigue life. Take a steel bar and an aluminum bar, both rated at 10,000 psi, apply 5000 psi to both, then let off, do that over and over again, the steel bar will last forever, the aluminum WILL eventually snap, even though you never exceeded its rated capacity, thats just how aluminum is. Polymer, like steel has an infinite fatigue life, so in all truthfulness, a polymer framed gun WILL last longer than an aluminum framed gun.

The same tired argument's been made time and again regarding rifles and wood vs polymer stocks.... Polymer is better hands down, yet wood still has its place because its pretty, and is good enough, and there are lots of people that "wont own a plastic gun!". If wood were not pretty, do you think we would still see wood rifle stocks?

I'm sorry but i'm not trying to convince anyone to do anything. My original posts have been centered on MY guns, MY dollar and MY opinion. Wich we all strive to share, even yourself. However, I take offense to you and members like yourself who are on a crusade to criticize those who simply don't agree with you. You say you offer proof but in reality, it's just your opinion on the quality and strength of these guns, just as it is mine, regarding their worthlessness to me.
I'm not missing the boat or reluctant to leave the box, I simply can't be convinced that a gun should be made of plastic. You and millions like yourself, can spend as many dollars as your heart desires on any type of gun you wish, as I will also do. But what i won't do is spend my money, not your's or anyone else's, my money on a plastic framed handgun.
Regarding the Delta Elite, I did own one and it shot fine and never failed. Some guns simply can't be retrofitted with calibers without chaqnging the design and the 10mm is a stout cartridge. The Dan Wesson doesn't have issues with the 10mm, nor does the Kimber and these aren't made of polymers.
Again, every post here uses the attempt to substantiate with opinions, including your's and proof is asked for when actually none is offered.

The definition of "Junk" is anything regarded worthless, having superficial appeal, meaningless.
To me, polymer guns fit into all three categories. I am not saying that anyone else should feel the way i do so don't manipulate my comments to reflect that. Actually, you really should go back into my posts and show me where I did write that, if you are really want to offer the coveted"Proof".
That said, keep your guns made from old tooth brushes and I'll keep mine made from ferrous and non-ferrous metals.

 

[khutch]

Polymer is better than aluminum in a lot of ways. Aluminum WILL eventually fail, no matter how lightly it is used. It has a finite fatigue life. Steel has an infinite fatigue life. Take a steel bar and an aluminum bar, both rated at 10,000 psi, apply 5000 psi to both, then let off, do that over and over again, the steel bar will last forever, the aluminum WILL eventually snap, even though you never exceeded its rated capacity, thats just how aluminum is. Polymer, like steel has an infinite fatigue life, so in all truthfulness, a polymer framed gun WILL last longer than an aluminum framed gun.

I don't think you can say this categorically. There are so many aluminum alloys available with so many different characteristics that the designer can make the proper choice to suit pretty much any application. Aluminum framed aircraft are exposed to frequent cyclical loads and are rather successful. Steel and plastic parts fail too. There are plastic compositions that are totally unsuited to firearms use for a variety of reasons just as there are aluminum alloys that are well suited.

We could propose other tests between the three materials such as chemical solvent resistance or heat resistance. Plastic would not fare so well in those tests. Metals fare poorly in tests with corrosive chemicals. Neither plastic nor aluminum is a good material for barrels or slides. Because of that your plastic gun has to have some metal parts, the most critical ones in fact, and so it is absolutely no more corrosion resistant than an all metal gun. It has all the failings of metal plus all the failings of plastic. An all metal gun has only the former.

What does this prove? Just that we have to trust the gun designer to make good choices for the materials that are used. If the designer does a good job the gun will be a good gun no matter what it is made of. Any well made gun is going to last longer than I need it to last. I just prefer metal. I prefer Bach to Beethoven. It is a matter of taste not a value judgment. I honestly don't know which one would have performed best in your 5000 pound test....

Ken

 

[dacaur]

I'm sorry but i'm not trying to convince anyone to do anything. My original posts have been centered on MY guns, MY dollar and MY opinion. Wich we all strive to share, even yourself. However, I take offense to you and members like yourself who are on a crusade to criticize those who simply don't agree with you.

This is getting tiresome. My "crusade" is not to criticize, I dont care what kind of guns anyone buys, I'm just tired of the lies and half truths about polymer/nylon/plastic whatever you want to call it. (most of them posted by you) Things like :

"Yeah, you only have to buy a good gun once but plastic junk has a shelf life, it's that simple. I see they released another plastic paperweight."

Using polymers isn't the best example of current technologies but it's an inexpensive one.

Using polymers isn't the best example of current technologies but it's an inexpensive one. That doesn't make the product good or close to the best, it only makes it cost less to make. I don't think polymer guns are going to turn into a pile of dust and I never used that analogy. I feel that when they do have a part that has worn over time, and a twenty five year term isn't what I'm refering to, the gun will have to be scrapped. Polymer doesn't have the long term strength of steel or aluminum so it can't possibly last as long as them on friction surfaces with constant use.

It's not possible to change many parts of polymer guns and this in itself is a detriment.

But don't try to kid yourself that plastic is in any way "better" than metal, for anyone other than the manufacturer.

Polymer guns were introduced as an inexpensive way to stay competitive, not because they are better than steel guns.

All are either half truths, or outright lies. People posting assumptions as truth has always bothered me. I dont care what you buy for yourself, but when the lies and half truths you post may convince some malleable young mind that "plastic guns are bad" when its untrue, I take issue with that. Buy what you want, give your opinions, but state them as opinions, not fact.

Polymer doesn't have the long term strength of steel or aluminum so it can't possibly last as long as them on friction surfaces with constant use

Let me dwell on this one for a moment... I'll just start off saying its completly untrue. Many polymers have properties that make them perform BETTER than metal in friction situations. In fact a metal on nylon slide surface will last longer than a metal on metal slide surface, unless BOTH metal surfaces are hardened. It situation where they dont need the strength of steel, nylon is often used for gears, because it lasts longer. Now in a gun with a steel frame this really isn't an issue, because it doesn't get the cycles to make a difference, but ask someone who has a gun with a steel slide and aluminum frame how much wear is on the frame, then ask someone who has a p95 (which is a steel slide on a poly frame with no steel inserts) and they will tell you there is NO wear on the frame, even in high round count guns.

Polymer is better than aluminum in a lot of ways. Aluminum WILL eventually fail, no matter how lightly it is used. It has a finite fatigue life. Steel has an infinite fatigue life. Take a steel bar and an aluminum bar, both rated at 10,000 psi, apply 5000 psi to both, then let off, do that over and over again, the steel bar will last forever, the aluminum WILL eventually snap, even though you never exceeded its rated capacity, thats just how aluminum is. Polymer, like steel has an infinite fatigue life, so in all truthfulness, a polymer framed gun WILL last longer than an aluminum framed gun.

I don't think you can say this categorically. There are so many aluminum alloys available with so many different characteristics that the designer can make the proper choice to suit pretty much any application. Aluminum framed aircraft are exposed to frequent cyclical loads and are rather successful. Ken

ALL aluminum alloys have a finite fatigue life. Its not because of the metals its mixed with, its because of the aluminum. Yes planes are made from it and yes they are successful (for the most part), but the airline industry learned the HARD way that aluminum WILL eventually fail (Google Aloha flight 243) Which is why they measure a planes lifetime not in hours or years, but in pressure cycles. (going from the ground to 30,000 feet and back) and they only have only a certain number of pressure cycles they can fly before needing to be inspected to make sure metal fatigue is not setting in... if there were an aluminum alloy that didn't have that issue, I'm pretty sure the aircraft industry wold have jumped on it. IF an aluminum frame lasts longer in use than a polymer frame, its not because of the material the frame its made of, its either lack of maintenance or a poor design.

First off, calling these guns "plastic" is incorrect. If they were truly made of plastic, I would definitely agree that they are crap, but polymer is a different animal altogether. The different between plastic and polymer is way more than the difference between steel and aluminum.

dacaur, I'm going to choose to refer back to this line again, I think it says all that needs to be.

What exactly does it say? "plastic" is not a specific material, its a category of materials that encompass a lot of different and varied things. When you say something is made of "plastic" you really arent saying much. Do you say to someone that a brick house is made of clay? That your car has sand windows? All nylon is plastic, but all plastic is not nylon. While it may not be "scientifically accurate", when you say the word plastic to someone, they think of flimsy easy to break stuff.

When you hand someone a pair of safety glasses and ask them what they are made of, how many people will say "plastic"? Not may, though its accurate. So yea, saying a polymer frame is made of plastic may be "scientifically correct" but its really just trying to put as bad a light as possible on it.

 

[Flash]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[tkarter]

I can't wait for Ruger to produce a polymer frame 1911.

tk

 

[Cheesewhiz]

I can't wait for Ruger to produce a polymer frame 1911.

tk

Your a sick man tk, Merry Christmas.

 

[tkarter]

LOL Merry Christmas to all.

tk

 

[WAYNO]

I can't wait for Ruger to produce a polymer frame 1911.

tk

Please...It's Christmas! :lol:

WAYNO.

 

[Mike J]

Merry Christmas fellows

 

[oilcangary]

I can't wait for Ruger to produce a polymer frame 1911.

tk
Isn't that a P97, Merry Christmas everyone.

 

[dacaur]

I can't wait for Ruger to produce a polymer frame 1911.

tk
Isn't that a P97, Merry Christmas everyone.

P97 isn't anything like a 1911. Its about as close to being a 1911 as my kel-tec pf9 is. The only similarities are the single stack mag and caliber, and both are locked breech tilting bbl semi-autos....... other than that, pretty much everything that can be different, is.

 

[Glupy]

With a fear of sounding like as politician, I suspect that most opinions are correct. As individuals, we are weighing what is most important to us, tempered by our familiarity with each alternative.

The metal guns are more traditional and us older guys feel more comfortable with what is more familiar. Judging from the civil war guns that are still around, the all-metal guns have no longevity issues. And I can use my Blackhawk as a club if necessary.

The alloy guns are lighter, less expensive to build and have more design alternatives. They are more familiar to the younger crowd and therefore more acceptable. We really don't have enough history to judge the longevity, but I suspect that the polymer guns will outlive me anyway.

The hybrid guns (noted by Sal1950) are probably attempts at the lighter-weight and cost effectiveness of the latter with the longer wearing capabilities of the former. I never saw a metal gun with polymer wear inserts.

I have a decent supply of firearms but my only polymer pistol is an LCP. The LCP's light weight is important but the longevity part is not. My self-defense and frequent shooters are all metal. I guess that I am agreeing with vacextar on the former but agreeing with Flash on the latter.

Dave

 

[Yosemite Sam]

The P345 is about as close to a polymer 1911 as you can get from Ruger.

If you really want one check out the "2011" from STI. And even that's a double stack.

-- Sam

 

[dacaur]

The P345 is about as close to a polymer 1911 as you can get from Ruger.

If you really want one check out the "2011" from STI. And even that's a double stack.

-- Sam

I guess thats technically true since ruger doesn't make any 1911's, but its also technically true that a brown pig is about as close as you are going to get to a horse at a pig farm. Of course, that doesn't make a brown pig any more similar to a horse than a pink pig. Sure they all have 4 legs, eat and poop, but really arent all that similar other than all being mammals....... (not calling ruger a pig farm, i love ruger, I own 3, its just what popped into my head )

Internally the p345 isn't any closer to being a 1911 than the p97 or my kel-tec PF9..... The p345 is really just the "next generation" P97. The P345 has been lawyered up a bit, along with a few cosmetic changes and improved fit and finish.

 

[Flash]

I knew it, i knew it!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: