when is ruger going to make a single stack 9mm?

[Specs]

OK, my last comment here. The LCI is redundant because if I put a magazine into the pistol I then put a round into the chamber.I do not have to glance at the pistol to know it is loaded, I know it is loaded because I just loaded it. If it has a magazine in it it is loaded period,one in the chamber. If I remove the magazine I then clear the chamber and I know it is unloaded. Honestly, it just does not any simpler than that.

 

[revhigh]

Heh, heh, heh, Specs ..... the people you are trying to convince, not me, of course, because I agree with you, will NEVER agree with you .... OR concede that it's redundant, so it's best just left alone.

Good try though ! This reminds me of another post a few months ago where a poster was 'really glad' that his SR9 had a safety, because he put it on when he holstered the gun (presumably so he wouldn't shoot his foot off), and then, when the gun was holstered, he 'unclicked' the safety so that it wasn't on when he had to draw it ....

REV

 

[Verndog]

... I know it is loaded because I just loaded it.

That in NOT a redundant safety feature provided by the gun. I asked for another feature on the weapon that indicates the chamber is loaded. What happens when you shot 7 but thought you shot 8, or better yet when your neighbor does...where is your "redundant" safety feature then?

Take it one step further lets say 2 people shot themselves because they thought their gun was unloaded, and this feature would have saved their life. Would you look them in the eye and say I'd rather not see the flag on my gun and have you dead? That is what this boils down to in Rugers eyes.

To me it's really NOT that big of deal weather it does or doesn't have the LCI. I only play devils advocate that once you see the function, it can possibly be useful, and if not then how does it hurt you? It's certainly no reason to NOT buy as you stated early on.

 

[jhearne]

Vern, the safety features provided by today's newer handguns DO NOT override safe gun handling techniques. You can never idiot proof a gun....to do so would generate an unsafe gun.

I firmly believe that Ruger, by implementing these devices: A) enables the guns to be sold where some may not, and B) allows Ruger to wash their hands of the matter by 'making the gun safe' when it is sold.

The LCI has the potential to make the gun safer, but it is not a means to neglect the principals of safe gun handling techniques. It says so in Ruger's manuals. When a child is shot because of a Negligent (there are no accidentals unless the gun goes off on it's own) Discharge, someone is at fault. It's not the gun manufacturer's, the gun was safe sitting where it was. You can only blame the parents for either not showing the kid(s) about proper and safe technique, or for not locking the gun in a safe where they couldn't get into it. Preferably both are steadfast practices in all households with guns and children.

To assume the LCI will fix everything (regardless of how reliable a system it may be) makes me believe you have the same mindset as people who think guns are dangerous sitting on a shelf loaded, or the lawyers who determined that these devices make guns inherently safer. I know you don't, but that is the vibe I draw from your conclusions.

A gun is always loaded!

Josh

 

[Verndog]

...The LCI has the potential to make the gun safer, but it is not a means to neglect the principals of safe gun handling techniques.Josh

Exactly, and that I 100% agree with.

And with that potential to save even 1 life, all gun owners benifit as you have 1 less anti gun family suffering a loss and on a mission to smear manufacturers. Less lawsuites, less lawyers, and cheaper guns.

To assume the LCI will fix everything

Not sure where you draw that from, but that is not even close to what I'm saying. :roll:

 

[revhigh]

Take it one step further lets say 2 people shot themselves because they thought their gun was unloaded, and this feature would have saved their life. Would you look them in the eye and say I'd rather not see the flag on my gun and have you dead?

Now that is just a silly stance .... suppose the gun HAD an LCI or SAFETY, but the person didn't SEE it. Should we now make talking guns that speak to you, warning you that the gun is loaded ?? How would we look the person in the eye and tell them that their life wasn't worth a gun that talks. OH OH, WAIT !!! What if the person is HEARING IMPAIRED so that they couldn't hear the talking gun .... ooh ooh ... I know !! We should make it vibrate a certain way for loaded and a certain way for unloaded so that the hearing impaired don't shoot themselves because of their poor gun-handling techniques. Oh OH WAIT .... WHAT IF .... their hands had nerve damage and they couldn't FEEL the vibrating gun, ad infinitum .....

A GUN IS ALWAYS LOADED .... IF YOU DON'T handle it as such .... DON"T HANDLE IT.

REV

 

[Verndog]

....Should we now make talking guns that speak to you, warning you that the gun is loaded ?? How would we look the person in the eye and tell them that their life wasn't worth a gun that talks. OH OH, WAIT !!! What if the person is HEARING IMPAIRED so that they couldn't hear the talking gun .... ooh ooh ... I know !!...

Dang, all that and "I'm being silly"?? Dang Rev, I expected better then that.

How bout you keep up and go back several posts...does it fit this criterea?

Ruger knows it, the lawyers know it, and if a safety feature can save a few lives, is deemed unobtrusive, cost effective and reliable, EXPECT to see it. Thats life, and people need to get over it IMO.

No...a talking gun could get you killed huh Rev. :roll:

 

[revhigh]

deemed unobtrusive, cost effective and reliable .... by who ???

REV

 

[crispy]

Seat belts, headrests and airbags...

I won't by a car with them, I think they're redundant...

 

[Verndog]

deemed unobtrusive, cost effective and reliable .... by who ???

REV

By the manufacturer, you know the people you put your trust in as you squeeze the trigger that one day you may need it.

 

[revhigh]

Seat belts, headrests and airbags...

I won't by a car with them, I think they're redundant...

Considerably different concepts crispy. A gun is not unsafe by virtue of not having a LCI or safety, unless you're a poor gun handler.

A car at speed IS unsafe without the above .... also .... recundant means duplicating a certain function ..... what exact other systems would make seatbelts, headrests, and airbags redundant ?? What systems do they duplicate ?

REV

 

[revhigh]

deemed unobtrusive, cost effective and reliable .... by who ???

REV

By the manufacturer, you know the people you put your trust in as you squeeze the trigger that one day you may need it.

Doesn't work for me verndog .... the manufacturer isn't buying their own products .... I AM .... therefore I MAKE THAT ASSESSMENT .... NOT them.

We have now reached the crux of the matter .... I'm done !

REV

 

[jhearne]

Seat belts, headrests and airbags...

I won't by a car with them, I think they're redundant...

Considerably different concepts crispy. A gun is not unsafe by virtue of not having a LCI or safety, unless you're a poor gun handler.

A car at speed IS unsafe without the above .... also .... recundant means duplicating a certain function ..... what exact other systems would make seatbelts, headrests, and airbags redundant ?? What systems do they duplicate ?

REV

Unsafe at speed? No, unsafe in a collision, yes.

Josh

 

[Verndog]

..... what exact other systems would make seatbelts, headrests, and airbags redundant ?? What systems do they duplicate ?
REV

We could use Specs logic and say it's redundant to using the brake pedal because he knows it's there.

Thanks for the morning fun guys...had a "blast". :twisted:

 

[jhearne]

That's nice and all, to help at least one family. You have to understand that Ruger always built safe guns prior to the introduction of the LCI and Mag DC in their lineup....

Ruger doesn't put the LCI to be safe, they put it on there to be able to sell to CA, MD, MA, NY and NJ. Out of the top 10 states in population figures, 3 of them restrict handguns via features, looks or mag capacity. That (on population figures alone) takes 40% of those top 10%....of all of the US population, it equates to about 25%, with the addition of Massachusetts to the restricted list, who is not in the top 10 in population.

Read more here: Link. I put this together this morning to illustrate a point about where Ruger's mind is when it comes to the LCI and other safety features required to sell a gun in certain states. The info regarding population is dated (from 2000's census) but it's essentially scalable to represent today's market for firearms. I marked states that don't allow concealed handguns, but also gave Illinois an *, Cook County restricts mag capacity to 10 rounds. I gave all the info I used to come up with the results via links on the page.

Josh

 

[Verndog]

Thanks for the link Josh. I do understand the points being made and know that for some people change can be irritating. As I stated before, the LCI to me is something I can take or leave, since my SR9c has it, I see it's use to someone and now like the feature. No I don't need it, but it doesn't hurt the gun or me to have it so I say look at the big picture, if it helps someone or even 1 then OK.

My goal here was to possibly show the manufactures perspective as I have been in design and manufacturing most of my life and know much what they are dealing with. 8)

 

[jhearne]

No problem Vern, the LCI isn't a terrible idea, just as long as it's not relied upon while neglecting proper handling practices, again not you, but the idea of it. It's not Ruger's fault they have these 'features', neglecting 25% of the market is hard to do when money talks.

Josh

 

[dacaur]

...The LCI has the potential to make the gun safer, but it is not a means to neglect the principals of safe gun handling techniques.Josh

Exactly, and that I 100% agree with.

And with that potential to save even 1 life, all gun owners benifit as you have 1 less anti gun family suffering a loss and on a mission to smear manufacturers. Less lawsuites, less lawyers, and cheaper guns.

I submit that a LCI is MORE dangerous, because it teaches bad habits. It teaches people that they can just look at the outside of a gun, and know if its loaded or not. If ALL guns had that as standard equipment, thats one thing, but the problem is that its not consistent. Some guns have it, some dont. There are cars today that will warn you if you try to change lanes and someone is in your blind spot. Drive one for a year then switch to a car that doesn't have that feature and guess what happens?

Unfortunately, we cannot protect everyone from themselves, because to do so, we have to take away all choice. Its called freedom. I have the freedom to not like LCI's, and I have the freedom to not buy a gun that has an LCI. I also have the freedom to complain bitterly about it, just as you have the freedom to disagree with me. Thats what makes the USA so great (sorry everyone else :shock: ) There are too many people in the country that are trying to take away our freedoms, including many who actualy have the power to do so, or at least they believe they do. But thats a subject for another time :roll: by agreeing with them, you give them the power do do that.

if we put 5 point seatbelts in every car, it would save THOUSANDS of lives every year, not just the 1 or 2 that LCI's "may" save... Yet we dont. If we did everything we could to save lives, we would have no freedom.

There comes a point when we just have to let commons sense dictate people actions, the ones too stupid to make it tend to remove themselves one way or another, the unfortunate part is that people are just too PC to say "too bad, dont be so stupid next time" and the rest of us pay for it. My wife has a hair straightener that says "caution, this product can burn eyes", with a drawing of a face with the product burning the eye... REALLY? do we REALLY need that warning? The other 300 million of us have to suffer because .00000001% of us is SO STUPID that they dont realise a hot product can burn their eye? There comes a point when you just have to say, "I'm sorry, but your loved one that shot himself because they "didn't know" the gun was loaded" was apparently just too stupid to live." Or they are in prison because they are too stupid to be out in the general population if they are going to go pulling the trigger on a gun thats not pointed in a safe direction.... Yes I feel bad when someone innocent dies because of it, but its not the gun that killed them, its the idiot that pulled the trigger.

 

[crispy]

Got it.

Putting LCI on firearm = Taking away freedoms.

I'm surprised some people don't whine about the extra mag release on the other side of the grip...

 

[Verndog]

... If ALL guns had that as standard equipment, thats one thing, but the problem is that its not consistent. Some guns have it, some dont....

Wow, amazing how man ever made it out of the cave man era isn't it? If we alway held back based solely on the fact that it's safer to keep everything the same so there is no danger of "not knowing the difference", we would be fighting wars with wooden clubs.

 

[dacaur]

Got it.

Putting LCI on firearm = Taking away freedoms.

Wow, amazing how man ever made it out of the cave man era isn't it? If we alway held back based solely on the fact that it's safer to keep everything the same so there is no danger of "not knowing the difference", we would be fighting wars with wooden clubs.

Wow you guys got all that from my post? I'm pretty sure none of that was in there.... :roll: but if thats what you take from it, I guess Ill just file you in the .00000001% :lol: haha, I'm kidding, but no seriously thats not at all what I am saying.

All I was doing was answering the question about why I and plenty of other people have a problem with LCI's and other "safety" features like mag disconnects.

My only point is that we should'nt do something just because it "might save one life", Yea some things make sense like airbangs and seatbelts, becuase they safe thousands of lives, but when you start doing things like that just becuase it MIGHT save one life, where do you draw the line with that line of thinking?
On the other hand the argument could be made that for every life a LCI or mag disconnect saves, it has the possibility to take one as well, from people getting complacent about gun rules and depending on safety features that not all guns have....
If we stop selling furniture with corners, that will save a couple lives for sure, right? We can make all objects blunt, because that could save one or two lives and that will be worth it, right? Society is too hung up on protecting stupid people from themselves..... If that makes me an insensitive D*** then so be it. If I'm stupid enough to not know if my gun is loaded or not, then i deserve whatever I get, whether that be death or life in prison, so be it.
I dont need some gun MFG telling me I'm too stupid to make my own choices. I'm not saying they shouldn't put idiot proofing on guns if it makes them sleep better at night, thats their own choice. Just like its my choice to not buy them.

 

[Cheesewhiz]

If that makes me an insensitive D*** then so be it..

You sound more anal than that other thing.

Just like its my choice to not buy them.

Exactly, don't, just freakin' stop the whining.

Love your Kel-Tec and go back to the Klown Posse.

 

[Cheesewhiz]

I dont need some gun MFG telling me I'm too stupid to make my own choices.

It's a good thing this is a gun forum, if this was an IT forum, you may be deemed too stupid to own a computer.

 

[dacaur]

If that makes me an insensitive D*** then so be it..

You sound more anal than that other thing.

Just like its my choice to not buy them.

Exactly, don't, just freakin' stop the whining.

Love your Kel-Tec and go back to the Klown Posse.

It's a good thing this is a gun forum, if this was an IT forum, you may be deemed too stupid to own a computer.

:shock: :shock: wow dude... Just, wow.... :shock: :shock:

I dont even know how to respond to that. You sure told me! I guess?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

BTW, whats a Klown Posse? Some kind of club you are in? Will it make me cool like you? And if so, how do i join? Also, do I have to insult random people just because they disagree with me, or is that part optional? I would hate to have to sound like an A**hole just to join a club.....

 

[Verndog]

I dont need some gun MFG telling me I'm too stupid to make my own choices.

Well now, finally we get to the REAL problem. It's really not that the LCI hurts the gun or gets in your way, and forget about the dead idiots that may have lived becasuse they deserve "what they have coming"...ALL because you dont want a manufacturer treating you like your stupid.

Sounds like Napoleon complex to me. Good luck finding affordable products built on earth for the human population that tell you how smart you are.