What is the ultimate . . . . .

Pat-inCO

Pat-inCO

Hawkeye
Joined
Oct 17, 2009
Messages
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In the AZ oven (Phoenix basin)
It is amazing the number of people that buy a new .22 and immediately want to know
what the "best" or "ultimate" what-ever there is for their new toy. We see an equal
number of people that want to know what to change. Why?

The best (IMO) thing you can do is make sure the gun is clean(ed?) and take it out
and shoot at least five hundred, possibly a thousand rounds, THEN decide what YOU
want to change/improve. I have more than one gun that has "broken in" (I HATE that
phrase) and ended up either fine, or at least significantly improved. . . . Until it has
stabilized from use, you could easily be expending dollars that are not necessary, or
are based on someone (that you don't know) else's opinion.

The trigger is one of the main items that tends to smooth out from use. Why not
give it the chance to improve, by itself?

The other question to those that buy a gun and immediately want to "improve" it
is . . . . why didn't you buy what you wanted, to start with? That will save you time,
money, and in many cases, frustration.

Have fun, shoot safe. :D



I did this as a separate thread because I do . . not . . want to seem to be picking on
someone. If you go back and look, you will see a veritable plethora of threads on
"What should I change first", or "What is the best/ultimate . . . ", or worse yet, "I've heard
that (name your favorite item) is a problem. What should I . . . . ".
Just use it a bit, and then decide what . . you . . would like to improve. :D


P.S. This does not include the eternal tinkerers. 8)
 
I'm a bit of a tinkerer, but I've been doing it long enough I don't have to ask what I might like, I already know.

With some rimfire rifles, like the 10/22, if I want another I'll buy the parts I want on it, and a receiver (lots of folks parting out new 10/22s these days).

Others, like the American bolt actions, only need a good scope on top (I know what kind of bases/rings I like too) to suit my needs.

I don't mind questions from the folks who are still trying to decide how to configure a weapon to suit them, but if they are thinking new parts will make them a better shooter, then they are indeed kidding themselves, there is no substitute for trigger time with live ammo.
 
I totally agree with pat, way too many , do NOT give what they got, a chance, let alone practice enough to get GOOD with it, then one may decide to "make it better"....... :wink:


gimmicks sell magazines and ads, and the world wants to build a better mouse trap, a dead mouse don't care... 8)
 
rugerguy said:
I totally agree with pat, way too many , do NOT give what they got, a chance, let alone practice enough to get GOOD with it, then one may decide to "make it better"....... :wink:


gimmicks sell magazines and ads, and the world wants to build a better mouse trap, a dead mouse don't care... 8)
Click to expand...


Rugerguy hit it dead center. The "best" .22 I own is a Ruger 10/22. It was the rifle I practiced with my uncle rather than my Dad and the joy of a solid hit wasn't dimmed by whatever lesson was to follow. I've sent a lot of boxes of ammunition through that little rifle and it has become a part of me when I'm shooting it. Face it, when my uncle- the dyed in the wool OMB - says sometimes you can't make the machine better you have to make yourself better it pays to listen. It's not the machine it's the operator!
 
I happen to like all my guns to have between 2 1/2 to 3 pounds trigger pull with zero creep. And I know for a fact that shooting a Ruger Single action with a 6 pound pull and 1/8" creep 1000 shots will never give me the precision I require from my guns. After refining my shooting skills for forty years of regular practice I don't have much time for sub par guns. If I just want to make some noise I would spend my time home rolling fire crackers or shooting a carbide signal cannon.
 
I agree with the replies. Is the limiting factor on accuracy you or your gun? For most of us (benchrest shooting notwithstanding), it is the shooter that is the limiting factor so the focus should be first on improving the shooter and not the gun.

Jim
 
All true, Pat. One of the best .22 shooters I have is a pre-war Savage 6A. All original, factory sights, and I can pop armadillos offhand with it from 75 yds or more all day long. :)

That said, I think part of what you talk about is somehow related to the modern era of instant gratification and the latest must have app for your 'device'. :wink:
 
To take things one step further, another thing that irks me is when someone asks "what ammo shoots the best"? All shooters should quickly learn that each firearm(rimfire, centerfire, rifle, pistol, etc.) is a rule unto itself as to its likes and dislikes are for ammo. Like someone said before, put at least 1k rounds through the firearm to smooth out the action, the barrel, the trigger, etc----FIRST. AND THEN start trying as many different rounds of ammo that you can find which one of them shoots the best through YOUR FIREARM. One bit of advice, IMHO when shooting the first 1k rounds, use copper washed/plated ammo to reduce the fouling in the barrel. Then once you have found a round that fits your accuracy standards and your pocketbook, buy as many boxes/bricks of that round(that all have the same Lot Number) as you can afford to buy. This will be so that you will have consistency in the ammo that you are shooting in your firearm.

To give an example of what I am speaking about, a friend of mine was shooting a new .308 rifle and was not getting very good groups at a 100yds with round nosed bullets. He talked to another friend who was also shooting a .308 rifle. The second friend suggested that the first friend should try of his spitzer bullet ammo in the new .308. The spitzer ammo made all the difference in the world as to the vastly improved accuracy of the new .308. and made the first friend very happy.
 
hpman66 said:
To give an example of what I am speaking about, a friend of mine was shooting a new .308 rifle and was not getting very good groups at a 100yds with round nosed bullets. He talked to another friend who was also shooting a .308 rifle. The second friend suggested that the first friend should try of his spitzer bullet ammo in the new .308. The spitzer ammo made all the difference in the world as to the vastly improved accuracy of the new .308. and made the first friend very happy.
Click to expand...
While that is a bit beyond where I was headed, I . . do . . agree, completely.

I bought a .222Rem rifle about fifty years ago, for $45. Found out why it
was so cheap, as soon as I had a scope on it. If you didn't have the EXACT
load it wanted (I mean to the tenth of a grain) the group size was about
two inches at 100 yards. With the exact load, it shoots under half minute
groups all day long. - - - - YES, ammo can easily make a significant
difference. OR, like one .270 I have, makes very little difference.

You have to shoot it first, then shoot it some more, THEN think about what
"needs" done. :D
 
rugerguy said:
I totally agree with pat, way too many , do NOT give what they got, a chance, let alone practice enough to get GOOD with it, then one may decide to "make it better"....... :wink:


gimmicks sell magazines and ads, and the world wants to build a better mouse trap, a dead mouse don't care... 8)
Click to expand...


AMEN! It's foolhardy to think some "gizmo" will turn you into 'Brian Enos' immediately after you install it. :lol: No two Ruger Mark Target pistols are the same, even after they've been assembled in sequence, with all the same part numbered items. Too many variables involved with tolerances of pivot pin holes and ALL the internal parts have a tolerance range also. I think it's a GOOD recommendation to shoot and LEARN, first, before you start with the plastic card and the internet. :D
 
Of my 10/22s, all have been "improved".... some rather dramatically (the one dedicated to protecting me from marauding paper targets), and then there's my "bunny hunter" - added a fixed 2.5X scope, and cleaned up the trigger. Still about a 4 pound trigger, but no creep and a crisp letoff.

My hunting guns are just the way they came from the factory, except for a trigger on the tang safety M77.

As stated earlier, gimmicks and doo-dads won't compensate for poor shooting skills. Everybody really ought to go through the Appleseed program.
 
contender said:
I think too many folks buy a gun thinking that they will improve their shooting by adding "improvements."
Click to expand...

Well of course. It's always the gun's fault for not shooting good. Never, ever the person attached to the trigger finger. :roll:
 
I don't disagree that shooting skills are number one ... but it sure is fun to tinker and change ......
I've got a new trigger group for a 10/22 that I got to figure which one I want to install it in.
 
Ale-8(1) said:
I always wonder about folks who have to come onto an
internet site and ask what they should like. :roll:
Click to expand...
ROTFL.gif


Love it!
 
Gunsmithing just after you buy a gun is not new. I remember it was standard procedure to buy a Colt 45 auto and give it to a gunsmith so it ran right.

I like to speed up the break in period of many guns by swabbing the barrels liberally with Flitz on a tight patch. This cleans up the machining edges and reduces leading. Even works on shotguns.

My favorite 22 is a Remington 581. It comes up and points like a part of me. I do like the 10/22 of course. It is my almost never fail semi auto.

Now I see some folks think asking for advice on “what gun?” is laughable. Well if you see enough of the uninformed public, then coming to a internet site to ask questions is better than asking the guy across the counter at the gun shop what to buy.

I just bought new tires for my truck based on what advice I got at an internet site. Tirerack has reviews and feedback from owners on about the tires. Why should guns be any different than tires for needing advice what to buy?
 
"The Lounge."
"This Area is for Relaxing and Discussing Issues for Any Subject on Your Mind So Long as it is in Good Taste."

I guess this is why this thread hasn't been moved to the the Lounge by the moderators yet.
 
I've come to recognize what 'standard design features' seem to serve *MY* needs best. Trial and error (ah! error, what be thy name?) shows the typical minimal 'buff & polish' kind of things that help me get the most accuracy/reliability/pleasure out of a particular gun.

Leaping in with the 'too much is not enough' is a phase I'd wager most RF members have managed to leave behind them.
 
I don't need to shoot a new 10/22 to know that it is not going to yield half inch groups at 50yds or better. I don't need to send 1000rds downrange to realize that the trigger is never going to be what I want it to be without help. I don't need to burn two bricks to realize that the stock doesn't fit. The fact that I need a better barrel, target trigger and a stock that fits does not mean that I can't shoot.

Just as equipment will never make up for a lack of shooting skill, no amount of practice and shooting skill can make up for the shortcomings of the equipment.

You cannot always buy what you want. Sometimes you have to build it, or enlist the help of a professional.

Some people are satisfied with guns as they come out of the box. This is irrelevant to those who are not.
 
Pat-inCO said:
It is amazing the number of people that buy a new .22 and immediately want to know
what the "best" or "ultimate" what-ever there is for their new toy. We see an equal
number of people that want to know what to change. Why?


The trigger is one of the main items that tends to smooth out from use. Why not
give it the chance to improve, by itself?

The other question to those that buy a gun and immediately want to "improve" it
is . . . . why didn't you buy what you wanted, to start with? That will save you time,
money, and in many cases, frustration.

Have fun, shoot safe. :D

A. We were all new at this once. Most of the people that ask about what to do I would assume are new.

B. Triggers may smooth out but I have never seen any that lighten up much. Most of my shooters have triggers under 3 lbs. My Competition 1911 is 1.2 lbs.

C. Not everyone can afford the gun they want first. So they have to do improvements as they can afford it. I remember when I started shooting IPSC in 1990. Started out with Colt National Match about 800$ then. Then in order to run with the big dogs had a Para P14 limited gun built with most of the bells and whistles cost about $1400. Then to went to Para P16 full house limited gun $2500( back then you could not get today's custom features on a factory gun). At that time took me about 3 years to to be able to afford last gun and to develop the skills to justify the $$ spent.
Click to expand...
 
Really..........whats the point in putting a 1000 rounds down range in a gun with a junk trigger, because when you get that done it will STILL have a junk trigger. They may get "smoother" whatever that means, but they don't get lighter, nor loose creep and over travel.
 
Exactly!

Methinks 'some' folks are completely satisfied with box stock 10/22's and can't understand why everyone else doesn't feel the same way.
 
jadek44 said:
Just buy a Marlin Model 60 and you're all set. No need for mods. Why buy a gun you're not going to be happy with from day 1??
Click to expand...
Why buy a house and repaint a room, or change the landscaping?..........why buy a truck and change the wheels, or add accessories?..........why reload and tinker, isn't factory ammo "good enough"?...........why do ANYTHING?............because you want it like YOU want it and everybody does NOT have the same wants or needs. Nor can you always buy EXACTLY what you want.

As far as guns...........do you want to just shoot it, or do you actually want the gun to "SHOOT" and there IS a difference.

I have a match grade Kimber 22 rifle. Do I expect my 10/22s to shoot as well.........No, but I know I can make it shoot LOTS better than it comes out of the box.
 
You can usually tell a new shooter by the questions asked, and the decent thing to do is to respond in a civil manner, and give responsible advice.

In the case of a 10/22, the best thing a new shooter can do is fix the trigger.... and that's really the only thing that needs to be done until his shooting ability has progressed to where he could benefit from some more exotic (and expensive) mods. If the stock trigger is like dragging a piano down a gravel road, the benefit will be immediate and obvious... but a crisp 3 pound trigger is all that would be needed.
 
We all know there are dozens of different .22 ammo available to us, which all feed, fire, and eject with its own behavior, thus making .22’s finicky. One of the reasons I bought a Ruger .22 semi-auto is I believe it is the best .22 pistol money can buy. If you want to make your Ruger MARK I, II or III sing like a banshee I humbly suggest doing the following modifications as I have, please don’t misunderstand the intent of this post, I’m not bragging (maybe just a wee bit). Regardless, I have enjoyed making an awesome pistol better, I love tinkering with it. Here is a list of the mods I’ve done to my Ruger MK III 22/45.

1.) I installed this kit >>> https://www.volquartsen.com/products/1067-bolt-tune-up-kit-for-mki-mkii-and-mkiii <<< This is an awesome upgrade as Ruger uses stamped steel parts, the firing pin tip is .004 inch wider and hardened, the extractor has crisp right angles, is .005 inch wider at the hook and hardened as well, since I used these parts I have had zero failures to feed and eject, except for maybe one out of a several hundred fail to fire, if that, after all .22 ammo is finicky.
2.) After running 500 rounds through it I looked at the wear marks on the bolt and then took a Dremel with a cloth wheel and Flitz Polish and buffed up the bolt in those areas, it slides buttery smooth now.
3.) I also used the Flitz polish to buff the sear, hammer, and other internal parts, now my trigger pull is clean, crisp, and breaks at 3 ½ pounds versus the 5 ½ as it came from the factory, I’ll never buy another aftermarket trigger kit again …. Polish I say … Polish.
4.) I took out all the Mag-disconnect parts and installed a MARK II hammer bushing, this is an awesome Mod as well, now the dis-assembly and re-assembly process is simple and mags fall to the ground upon release instead of hanging up on the disconnect arm.
5.) I did the Slingshot mod by grinding two slots on the Bolt Hold Open arm with my Dremel, thus creating a small post, then I used the spring from inside the Bolt release detent knob on that arm which rests on the bottom of the barrel / receiver out of the way of bolt operation, after lock-up on last round fired I drop the empty mag, slam in a full mag and with a slight pull on the bolt ears the bolt now slingshots forward like any other Full Sized pistol chambering a new round without having to fiddle with that stiff bolt release button.
6.) I took out the steel blade on the LCI (loaded chamber indicator) which I feel caused a few failures to feed.
7.) I took up 2/3’s of my trigger pre-travel by drilling a small hole in the same area that an aftermarket Target trigger would have a set screw, then through trial and error I placed a small metal rod in the hole, BINGO, 2/3’s of pre-travel gone.
8.) Installed a Tactical Solutions fiber optic Hi-Viz front sight.
9.) Modified my mags to hold 11 rounds by shortening the pin which sits inside and on top of the mag spring.
10.) Shortly after I bought my Mark III 22/45 they came out with the model that has replaceable grip panels (Dang-it !) so I had a guy mill off the grip panels which are molded into the lower and install 1911 style bushings and grip screws …. Now my choices on grips is almost endless.
 
I have yet to find a factory model that is exactly the way I want it.

Putting quotation marks around "Improvements" the way you have is really implying that you don't believe that factory firearms can be improved. I've owned over 300 firearms in the last 20yrs, and have yet to find a single one that didn't need SOME KIND of action work, refinement, etc to bring it up to my standards. I buy factory firearms with the intent of modifying them, as it's often cheaper to do that than buying custom actions and paying a smith to build them. Even on affordable rimfires rifles, adding a bedding job will almost always make MEASURABLE IMPROVEMENTS in accuracy.

Another "improvement" might be a duracoat/cerakoe/hydrographic finish job, transforming a black synthetic and blued rifle into a concealable game getter. There is no black in nature, and too many of these low quality "blued" finishes that are so common these days LOOK black, let alone the cheap tupperware black stocks they strap them into. Should an animal ever be able to spot your rifle before you ventilated it? Not really, but some times they have keener eyes than we do. I'm not a "camo gun" guy, but I'm much more into camo guns than black guns (referring only to finish, not to AR's).

The "wear it in" trigger job is a joke to me. Nothing but a great opportunity to ruin what could have been a good trigger by working it over itself with uneven sear engagement and rough mating surfaces. It'll slick up as one surface eats away the other, but it'll always feel "grittier" and have a rougher travel than a properly tuned trigger. A heavy spring will work in with a bit of use, but it's still a heavy spring. A 14lb mainspring will never become a 9lb mainspring, even if it might lighten up from a factory 16lb over strength to a regular 14lb.

And of course, there are those of us that want our guns to look as good as they shoot. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and you can't please everybody, but I don't think there's anything wrong with throwing some embellishment on a firearm that you're going to build memories with in the field.

If you don't want to modify your firearms or have them professionally modified, that's fine, they're your guns. But there's no real sense in diminishing the REAL advantage of action jobs and trigger jobs that other people want in their firearms just because they have different standards than you.
 
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