what do you think?

[T.A. WORKMAN]

8) :winkan, I have only fifteen pair of stag panels, after some forty years in the trenches. Never sold a set. Within the group, there are what I call representatives of the three suppliers/generation of stags. Suggest the Moderators determine how all these posts on stag and ivory grip panels(historical-wise) could be combined and placed in some form of repository. Would be great for all of us, especially the new collectors and members, to be able to "click" on "Stags" and be provided with all these comments and photos............Searches do work, sometimes, but a singular point of reference would be marvelous.

PLUS 1 Mike!!!

These threads on Stag & Ivory panels has been a very very interesting!!!
I have read everything Icould find on Stag & Ivory panels and I am still confused!!!! I still have no idea what I'm loooking at (other than panels)
I guess if the Big Dogs can't always tell then the rest of us never will be able too!! Again great thread!!!
Terry

 

[rugerguy]

T.A...astute observation Sir, goes back to "who/whom, is buying or selling, or whomever ,has one"..............very speculative, as well as opinionated....must remember the cover of the one of the Ruger books written some time back, the ivory grips on the cover gun were "wrong", yessir, even the "experts"can and will be "fooled"...........
"if it looks TOO good and the price is very high...." forget it... 8)

 

[Tucsonite]

Or the price is too good and from "somebody in the know" is another risky situation

Dan

 

[HAWKEYE#28]

Or the price is too good and from "somebody in the know" is another risky situation

Dan

Let me see if I can repeat what a Friend told me this morning, as it may relate to what My Friend Dan has noted: ....."Sometimes, the noise one hears in his head, as he makes an UNeducated decision to purchase some item, is the vacuum of being sucked into a situation one cannot hardly ever get out of.................." This will apply generously to the decision to spend too much money for stag or ivory grips that have questionable physical and/or verbally supportive qualities.............. Shortened version:............"Caveat Emptor" 8)

 

[radicalrod]

Hey Street, thanks I knew it was way more than I expected.....so even at that number of grips still leaves slightly over half out there......of course that is IF you can name 200 Ruger Collector with 15 pair of stags....I can't......also we have had 25 more years of searching since the early 80's.....time hasn't stood still guys....good stuff keeps popping up all the time.......we can't live in the past......even if it was a GOOD TIME.....see ya RR.

 

[chet15]

I completely agree with everybody's thinking here...I just wanted to rehash it to make sure that everybody knows, and I mean everybody, that the odds say the stag or ivory in your collection have a percentage of a chance of not originally coming from the factory. How big a percentage that is would be anybody's guess. But if you get a pair of stag or ivory from somebody who "says they're right" or that they "look right", it doesn't matter what is said, or who is saying it, it is still all heresay. As the generations go on, it will still be heresay. There are only a few guns documented today that are known to have come with stag or ivory (i.e. #100 .357 flattop engraved, #7 and 8 Single-Sixes Spanish Engraved and the letter "F" prototype Single-Six that is in private hands today, as well as the other letter prototype Single-Sixes).
And 41 Nut....This very night I have confirmed the conversation you had with a former employee several years ago who told you that he was the person who drilled the medallion and stem holes in stag and ivory grips. I know, I know, this conflicts with what J.D. said in his latest book that all stag and ivory were received at Ruger from the supplier "with medallions installed" (if those documents exist, I'd like to see what they really say). But the man I spoke with tonite started for Ruger in 1952 (not the same person 41nut spoke with years ago). His name goes down as being a designer at Ruger longer than any other designer at the factory (because none of the other designers could get along with WBR!!). He said there was an employee who drilled the holes for the medallions and stems and back side counterbore "at the Ruger factory" and a jig was used in doing this, holding the grip at three locations while the holes were drilled...at the top, at the front and on the flat backside of the panel.
This can only mean one thing folks!
Yes, I think the document that JD has seen that shows the first six pair of ivory ordered from J. L. Galef does probably show that the sets were shipped to Ruger "With medallions installed", but I am pretty confident now that all the other documents from the stag and ivory suppliers say nothing of the sort. And why would they, with the liability of possibly breaking the grips themselves while doing anything "extra" to those grips besides shaping and final finish? And Ruger had enough problems with breaking grips when they had them...and you know...the best chance of that occuring was when they drilled the medallion holes and staked the medallions!
Chet15

 

[HAWKEYE#28]

8) As noted before, and probably again down the trail, I absolutely love it when a story comes together.........Great work, Chad! :wink:

 

[chet15]

8) As noted before, and probably again down the trail, I absolutely love it when a story comes together.........Great work, Chad! :wink:

Well, I've always had a hunch anyway. Many of the grips you see today look nothing like what they did in the early '80's. This is going to disappoint a lot of people and in fact, piss a lot of collectors off. But it is what it is.
The price of stag and ivory might stay where they are, they might not. I believe they will probably stay right where they are.
So, as in the past...you like em...you like the price...go ahead and buy them anyway!
Chet15

 

[contender]

Definately a great bunch of info here.
I have always been "leary" of stags & ivories for Ruger just because of the knowledge I've heard about the fakes out there.
That's why I'm just the opposite of RR,,, I haven't bought my first set of either one as I felt the possibility of having fakes would piss me off if I paid a premium.
Now,, if I stumble upon a gun with a set on them,, and the price is fair,, I'll buy them hoping against hope they are 'real" but as noted,, unless we can get factory verification,, I'll always be a bit skepitical.
I agree with Splitz,,, a compiled section showing as much detail as we can get all in one place would be great as a referrence.

 

[rugerguy]

Oh well, another "story" and again, cannot be confirmed...as I have had over the years , conversations with folks from the factory ( through Jeff M and my projects) and yes, the guy who supposedly worked with 41 Nuts son, and told me ,that he was the one who designed?? ( came up with ) the arbor type press to "be used in stead of "staking" and just pressing the medallions in place so as to NOT "break " them..Walter Howe and Jack Behn ,BOTH told us, that in the early days, the stags were fatter, and they had trouble putting the medallions in due to this as they tried to be located more to the rear, ala the wood and plastic (hard rubber) so the suppliers had to :lower" ( remove more material on the down slope . from the center of the grip panel , towards the front, thus making it "flatter in the medallion area..so , finally , that doen , they could locate the medallion in a more "permanent" location, and be the same , grip, to grip ( the so'called' 5/16"s?? or whatever).unlike the Colt grips , where they did NOT install a medallion, so could stay "fatter" ( meatier...) more to hold onto, and as pointed out by JD, the different 'suppliers' of grips)..........of course the stems were not long enough to be used "properly" on this type of grip panel.......yep...just some more stories, ( Ruger lore...) and until can be documented and JD has come about the closest as anyone can......it will remain just that, subjective, argumentive and another opinion...some of these guys are LONG dead and gone, the ones 'still'around today are "how old...?? and they did NOT see and do "it all......." ( Mr Ruger is GONE...) so I cannot nor will not, call any of them "liars" , just another page in the book of life in the manufactruing world, sadly Mr Ruger never wrote ANY of this down, unless he had to ,for patent applications.......


and Radical, the trouble with your 'thought' ,as to so many are "still out there..." is that how many MORE have been added all these years, and still being "added" today, and what rate.......don't add up.........and the 'San Bar' stag of today, is NOWHERE near the"domestic' stag that was used back in the late 40's and through the 50's..........different characteristics .........

 

[chet15]

Not to continue an argument here, but I must say Dan the guy I have been speaking with is the same man who designed the Bearcat. He started for Ruger in 1952, and he may be 83 years old right now but he is still right with it in the mind. This isn't coming from a 2nd or third source to me...I've been speaking to this very knowledgeable fellow right over the phone! If we can't believe him...who do we believe, especially when a guy rattles this stuff off like it was yesterday?
Tell you what, I made a recording of the message he left on my phone about how the medallions were done on Ruger's grips. What more do we need? Its proof enough to me.
To date I haven't seen invoice number 1 that says the medallions were installed in Ruger's stag and ivory when they were received from the supplier. Just because somebody "says" its so, don't mean it is so. JD has done a lot of work for the hobby, but he wasn't there when this former designer/employee was (what I consider to be a true "source"). I know, saying that will probably get me in hot water again, so what else is new? But come up with an invoice other than the six original pair of ivory received from J. L. Galef (that says medallions were installed) and I'll re-consider my current thoughts about how things "were".
My point here is, with a jig you won't get medallion positions all over the place from grip to grip. Ruger is a professional manufacturing company, everything is precisely done to get consistency in the product, and why not...when you are consistent about your manufacturing methods you also save one helluva lot of time, eh?
You guys make the decision. I'm just reporting what would seem to be fact instead of conjecture, heresay or secondguessing.
Like I said, its probably not going to affect the price of stag or ivory either way. But this information is important to me, as it should be to everybody else as well.
I know this subject is "taboo"! I also know a lot of you guys have a lot of $ invested in stag and ivory sold as legit. But should we wait another few generations before we ask how it was really done, when all these old timers are gone?
Chet15

 

[radicalrod]

Gosh I guess I will sell all my GRIPS cause I will never be sure they are from the FACTORY......seems kinda easy to tell the NEW stag from the old stuff........so what we are saying is only a few grips have documentation and the rest are just probably fakes.....I don't believe it....if they pass my taste, touch, look and feel test....heck I buy them.....I have shown the same set of grips to guys and got 2 different answers at different times....maybe there are more floating around cause all the old guard is convinced they are all FAKE so they don't buy them...dare I say maybe you old guys caused the problem as you sure seem to know a lot about it....so what is TOO MUCH to pay....heck the sanbars are 250 + and look like DOG DO.....so a nice set of aged stags outta be worth more if they pass my looks test.......gosh why is Ruger collecting such a PAIN IN THE ASS anymore........see ya RR.

 

[mike722]

It would make sense that Ruger put the medallions in once they arrived..I have seen a bunch, not as many as a lot of collectors maybe, and one thing I have noticed is that the grips that look good and/or have some provenance all share the same characteristics: medallion placements are almost identical, stakings are the same (heavier with stag, lighter tapped in on ivory).. and the sanding marks are consistent.. the only ones with slightly different medallion placement seem to be ones with too much or not enough "meat" in the grip to put them where they "usually" go..
and a few I've seen, well.. are as fake as Michael Jackson's nose..

 

[Tucsonite]

Stag & Ivory, Type 1 or Type 2 44 flattops, etc etc etc. Its all up to speculation at this time and date. How many reblued guns are shown as ANIB ? there have been shennanagins going on since the 1st sight of big money came into view. how many collectors have created new variations just because they could. I suspect that more than a few in the RENE guide are as fake as any of the stag & ivory grips you all are picking to pieces.

my .02

Dan

 

[chet15]

I suspect that more than a few in the RENE guide are as fake as any of the stag & ivory grips you all are picking to pieces.
my .02
Dan

Well, lets get them weeded out then! If you guys are rebluing stuff or faking stuff, or making new variations shame on you! If somebody else buys it, shame on them!!
Integrity, Integrity, Integrity. That's my point. In a few generations nobody's going to give it a second thought whether something is "right" or "wrong", and that stuff will continue to get passed on. Unless everybody starts shunning it now. Tusconite, I've got to ask you. Do you not think anybody will try to pass on some of the grips that you've made as "factory" sometime in the future? No, I'm not saying you intentionally faked anything, and you've told many of us that you've made some of the grips that you have now...but tell me somebody in a future generation isn't going to buy them because they "look right".
I knew this would be a touchy subject, but hey...do you want to put reblued guns in your collection or do you want to put guns with original blue in your collection? A reblue isn't a fake? Especially when its sold as original?
Like I said, I don't expect the market price for stag and ivory "that look right" will drop off at all. I'm positive there are stag and ivory that have been made up that look identical to the factory stuff, but I can't tell them from original...nobody can. You guys still have your opinion of this and I have mine. But this is exactly the reason this family hasn't bought any stag or ivory in the last couple decades. I like the idea of what we've bought in the past having a helluva lot better chance of being worth "at least" what we paid for it when the time comes to sell.
The employee that I've been talking to said Ruger put the medallions in at the factory and I believe him. Its the exactly the same story heard by 41 Nut decades ago, and if Ruger didn't have some sort of consistency in their manufacturing methods, you'd probably see cylinder flutes located anywhere on a cylinder, except where they're supposed to be. Consistency wasn't invented by Bill Ruger, its been around for 200 years when Eli Whitney came up with it. Why would Ruger's stag and ivory grips be made any different? How many XR3 walnut panels do you see with medallions located all over the place? How about Super Blackhawk panels? Doesn't this say anything about the way things are manufactured? Doesn't it make sense that a manufacturer would be more efficient by producing things in a consistent manner, so they can make more $? I wonder what WBR's reaction would have been if he saw somebody at the workbench creating a piece of work without a jig? At $16 a pair retail for ivory, can you imagine how many pair would have been ruined because an employee didn't have consistency in drilling those medallion and stem holes, and the counterbore on back? You know if its not done perfectly, and you dont' have a just slightly more narrow thickness between the rear face of the medallion and the stem staking, you'll get a cracked grip every time when that medallion is staked. How do you suppose WBR felt about waste around the plant? No, I don't think the company would have had just anybody drilling those holes wherever they pleased. And sorry, this novel idea of consistency didn't just get forgotten when Ruger got in a pile of stag and ivory grip panels.
Some of you guys don't want to listen to facts from the people who are "most" in the know like the employees who made them, that's fine. I'm only reporting my findings, and hope everybody can find use for those findings to hopefully "not get sucked in".
And if somebody can come up with some documents saying these medallions were put in at the supplier, then I guess I'll take my lumps and be more careful next time to not put so much trust in a real live breathing employee who was there when they were made, not just any employee, but an employee who was at Ruger to make processes easier and streamlined...one of Rugers finest designers.
My comments may seem to read like I am really P.O'd about this subject, but really I'm not. Its ultimately up to you guys to know the difference in what's right or whats wrong anyway.
Chet15

 

[Ruger1441]

Not to add fuel to the fire but I spent my college years working in a machine shop. Drilled many items in jigs. If you are not carefull you get a little crap in the jig and now you have a different medallion placement. I am pretty sure that anyone who has worked doing production with a jig will tell you the same thing. :?

 

[chet15]

Not to add fuel to the fire but I spent my college years working in a machine shop. Drilled many items in jigs. If you are not carefull you get a little crap in the jig and now you have a different medallion placement. I am pretty sure that anyone who has worked doing production with a jig will tell you the same thing. :?

OK, agreeable. But what happens then when you drill the counterbore on the backside of the panel? Jig or no jig? If you have the wrong depth on the counterbore you get a thickness between the backside of the medallion and the stake that is either too thick or too narrow. Too narrow you get a medallion that pushes in and out of the grip slightly but still holds fast. Too thick and you crack expensive product when the medallion is staked, and ivory being as fragile as it is.....
Chet15

 

[chet15]

gosh why is Ruger collecting such a PAIN IN THE ASS anymore........see ya RR.

Not trying to be a pain. Just trying to be of some help to the hobby. Like I said, I know this is taboo, but who else is going to say it???
You are right, if they are up to anybody's standards of what they think is "right", then buy them.
Chet15

 

[HAWKEYE#28]

For the vast and largest part, I have little issue with points and information shared. It must be pointed out that,First, a "fake", for lack of other diplomatic terms, is only one generation of owner away from respectability/original status. That "generation" may be 10 minutes down the aisle at a gunshow, or ten or more years later, at the death of the owner of the faked item. The primary crux here is the lack of interest, direction, or desire on WBR's part, to document what was ongoing. While Sam Colt wrote nearly evrything down, WBR had no time for "such nonsense". Jack Behn told me on more than one occasion, that had he gone into WBR and told him a manufacturing or shipping schedule had been slipped or missed due to the recording of data, he would have been summarily fired.
So, now we once again find ourselves at this periodic, yet unscheduled time, when we are forced to debate real vs. fake, original vs. modified/enhanced, or question the record or lack of same, for a myriad of items. Just as the current suppliers of "real" factory stags still can turn out that spurious product, so can original stags be found on some family heirloom that Gradpa bought in '54. Btw, one doesn't need a placement jig to make these "today's" version of "factory" stag panels. Further, I own factory panels that had to be partially modified in order to ship, so even mods occurred on "day one", IE one emblem placed a bit further back, due to an growth void in the front of the panel's leading edge; and a second where the panel was so thin that part of the emblem pin had to be ground off. Factors of price, condition, appearance, source data, item credibility, originality of accessory to the parent firearm, and of course the seller credentials, all need to be taken into account. Admittedly, those collectors new to this field of rugers, are at a distinct disadvantage. Buy all the books, know your item, ask questions, call or email us veterans, and watch your money. It must/will always be Caveat Emptor before you pull out your folding money.......... 8)

 

[Tucsonite]

Chad,
Im not trying to say the entire Ruger Collectible Arena is False or Fake, what I will say is that everything Ruger is un-documentable except the Model # and ship date.
Until Ruger releases more than that it is hard for me to excited about Real or not Real.
Yes, I personally have installed medallions in Stag and Ivory grips, but I will guarentee you that when I sold them they would not pass for Factory, I made sure of that. Now if one of those that I sold someday get sold by another as Factory it is out of my control. Splitz says it right " get the books" "Study" and be an informed buyer before you get out your Folding Money.
For as long as I have been collecting Rugers there has been alot of parts swapping by those I would consider Experts. If you have a little wear on your ERH well just get it reblued It then makes that 96% gun a 98% gun. I cant tell you how many guns have had this done to them but I know I have changed my share of gripframes over the years, Does that affectthe originality of the gun? Hmmmmm.


Dan