Vote for or against the LC9

[dacaur]

dacaur, my guess is I put more rounds down range in a week than you do in 6 months but that's just a guess.

You can guess all you like, its irrelevant. pulling the trigger on a gun obviously does not equal knowing what the heck you are talking about.

My point on striker fired guns is correct, the companies that make them call them DAO (Glock) and SA (Springfield) and they work the same the triggers may feel a bit different but they are in design, the same.

Glock are called DAO because the trigger does two things. It finishes cocking the half cocked striker and releases it, thats two things. Springfield XD guns are called SA because the trigger does ONE thing. It ONLY releases the completly pre-cocked striker...

I actually have a friend who likes Taurus guns, I believe I commented on his 809 about a year back and he does have a 9mm 709 that I have fired before. The trigger is fairly light about SR9c like but it is functioning the same as all other striker guns, although Taurus claims it's different but the description doesn't make sense and I never noticed it when firing it.

If you have fired both a taurus 709 slim and a ruger SR9 and didn't notice a difference in the trigger pull, you should get yourself checked out. An SR9 has a long constant pull from start to finish, like the DA pull on a SA/DA gun, only lighter. A taurus 709 slim on the first shot has almost no resistance for most of the travel, then it breaks with just a short pull, like the SA pull on a SA/DA gun.... If the round doesn't fire and you pull the trigger again, THEN it feels like the DA pull, long and consistent throughout the pull

What you never noticed, is that almost all striker fired guns dont have the ability to fire a round from an uncocked striker, such as if a round were not to fire and you pulled the trigger again. You would never notice this unless you had a dud round. Put a snap cap in a glock (or almost any striker fired gun for that matter) and pull the trigger, you get a click. Now, without touching the slide, pull the trigger again... you dont get a click this time, because its the action of the SLIDE that pre cocks the striker. If the striker isnt pre cocked, the trigger cannot finish cocking it, Hence, no second strike.

This is from Taurus:

New Unique SA/DA Trigger System
The PT24/7 Pro Trigger system solves the double action/single action dilemma once and for all. Figure 1 shows the trigger at full rest. When a round is chambered, the trigger sets in single action mode with the trigger traveling freely to the crisp break point shown in figure 2. The trigger resets to DA mode until another round is chambered.

See, they talk about the trigger doing something without a round in the chamber, are they referring to it resetting? Oh boy, did they figured out how to get a trigger to reset on a striker gun? That's a function of a striker fired gun, that's the pre-cocking. So the trigger moves, big deal, they all do. Marketing idiots and you bought it.

The reason you dont get what they are talking about is you dont really understand how a striker fired gun works. which is why you were confused by my first post.

Ill break it down for you. Take your average glock (or just about any other striker fired gun), when you chamber a round, its the action of the SLIDE that pre-cocks the striker (half cocks it). When you pull the trigger, it does two things, it finishes cocking the striker and then releases it (maybe thats why they call it DAO? :roll: ). If the round fires, the slide goes back, and again half cocks the striker and you do it again. The problem comes if the round doesn't fire, the slide doesn't move, so there is no pre-cocking. You pull the trigger again and nothing happens.

Now, lets do the same thing on the taurus 709 slim.. When you chamber a round, the action of the slide completely cocks the striker. When you pull the trigger, it does ONE thing, which is release the striker, thats the SA part. If the round fires, the slide goes back, and again completely cocks the striker and you do it again. If the round doesn't fire, the slide doesn't move, so there is no pre-cocking. You pull the trigger again and THAT is where the difference lies, thats the "great advance" on the taurus is that when you pull the trigger that second time on a dud round, it actualy cocks the striker and releases it. Now on a hammer fired gun thats "ho-hum" because SA/DA hammer fired guns have been around for over 100 years. But on a STRIKER fired gun, its apparently really something that the trigger can completly cock the striker and release it on a single pull, without any kind of pre-cocking.

 

[gig]

No, the difference is not hammer vs striker, the difference is pre-cocking vs not precocking. the p11 doesn't pre-cock the hammer. The Sr9c pre-cocks the striker, but only halfway, the trigger is still cocking the striker the rest of the way, then releasing it. The LCP, LC9, and even kel-tec's PF9 all pre-cock the hammer halfway, then the trigger finishes cocking it and then releases it. The result is a lighter DA trigger pull that that of a "true" double action pull, like on your P11.

That said, the fact that the lc9 uses a hammer rather than a striker doesn't automatically mean that its going to have a hard trigger like your p11. My Kel-tec PF9 uses a hammer and has a much lighter trigger pull (5.75lbs) the LC9 is (6.3 lbs), the taurus 709 (5lbs in SA and 5.75lbs) in da, the p11 btw is at 8.5 lbs for comparison purposes....

All of the guns mentioned so far are DAO, The taurus 709 is really in a different class. its SA/DA.. Racking the slide completly pre-cocks the striker, and the trigger simply releases it. I am not a fan of a SA trigger on a defensive handgun, because in the heat of the moment, you are more likley to discharge the gun before you want to if you have only a short SA pull, than you are with a long consistent DA pull.

Thanks for your input, and I agree on the light pull of the 709.
I have a SR9c and find it just right.
I also have a HK45 and like the way it works, DA for carry and then SA thereafter, or you can manually cock it and have a nice trigger for the first shot.
But its just too large for many uses.

I wish there was a 9mm the size of the P-11 or LC9 that worked like the Hk45 or like a S&W 438.
There maybe; but I don't know what it is, maybe someone knows.........

 

[edteach]

. This poll is false dilemma, either I have to have it or I am not sold. there is a lot of ground in-between. I bought one and own a Glock 19 and sold a Sigma to buy this gun. I do not "have to have" it. It fit a slot that I feel I could use. My Glock is a great gun but I wanted a gun I could throw in the car and not worry about if I had it lost or stolen. Not worry not as in not reporting it but in that I did not lose the bank. I bought the Sigma and ended up with 250 all in. I fixed the trigger and it still was not as nice as the Glock or SR9. So I sold it and bought this gun. All in for 440. Still a few hundred under the Glock value and I can throw it in my care and its SS so no worries about it getting wet and damaging the finish. The gun fits me like my 1911 and is left hand friendly. I think its a keeper and will work nice for my purpose. But its not a have to have and I am sold that its a good gun for its purpose. I did remove the mag safety. I would not have it I had to modify the gun but it took me 90 seconds while watching a rerun of Law and Order

 

[Yawn]

. This poll is false dilemma, either I have to have it or I am not sold. there is a lot of ground in-between. I bought one and own a Glock 19 and sold a Sigma to buy this gun. I do not "have to have" it. It fit a slot that I feel I could use. My Glock is a great gun but I wanted a gun I could throw in the car and not worry about if I had it lost or stolen. Not worry not as in not reporting it but in that I did not lose the bank. I bought the Sigma and ended up with 250 all in. I fixed the trigger and it still was not as nice as the Glock or SR9. So I sold it and bought this gun. All in for 440. Still a few hundred under the Glock value and I can throw it in my care and its SS so no worries about it getting wet and damaging the finish. The gun fits me like my 1911 and is left hand friendly. I think its a keeper and will work nice for my purpose. But its not a have to have and I am sold that its a good gun for its purpose. I did remove the mag safety. I would not have it I had to modify the gun but it took me 90 seconds while watching a rerun of Law and Order

Hold the fort!!! First off, you already bought an LC9? How did you do that? And if that is the case, a lot of people here have a lot of questions for you... such as, can you carry it easily in your pocket? Second, as for the poll... I think there is a place for most everyone, and I was a little peeved that you only sighted the top and bottom possible answers.

 

[ECUfan]

The LCP, LC9, and even kel-tec's PF9 all pre-cock the hammer halfway, then the trigger finishes cocking it and then releases it

The LCP is pre-cocked??

 

[agentadam]

I wouldn't say half way.

 

[goodewalker]

I voted must have. My first pistol purchase after 2 months of research was the SR9. I would love to have this compact for concealment, although I can't find it locally or on GunsAmerica.com

 

[Yawn]

I voted must have. My first pistol purchase after 2 months of research was the SR9. I would love to have this compact for concealment, although I can't find it locally or on GunsAmerica.com

you can't find the SR9compact anywhere for sale?

 

[dacaur]

The LCP, LC9, and even kel-tec's PF9 all pre-cock the hammer halfway, then the trigger finishes cocking it and then releases it

The LCP is pre-cocked??

Yea, if you can see the hammer, that means its pre-cocked, if its "at rest" you wont be able to see it. The only time it will ever be in that condition though (not pre-cocked) is if you dry fire it or the round in the chamber doesn't go "bang"

I wouldn't say half way.

Well, guess its not "exactly" halfway, but saying 1/3 cocked sounds silly... its close enough to half for me

 

[dacaur]

I voted must have. My first pistol purchase after 2 months of research was the SR9. I would love to have this compact for concealment, although I can't find it locally or on GunsAmerica.com

If you are talking about the LC9, you cant find it because (according to ruger) it wont be avalable till feb 1.....

 

[Cheesewhiz]

Springfield Armory XD is actually single action. The striker is fully cocked. The trigger only releases it. I think that's why they put a grip safety on it.

Sorry Mike but calling a striker fired gun a single action or attributing any hammer fired pistol action to a striker gun is a misnomer. I really don't care what a manufacturer uses to describe it because it just isn't so. Gun makers tend to say a lot of things and some just don't come out very well in the wash.
Some of it has to do with this kind of stuff:
Glock actually calls their guns DA (or DAO) for BATF points for import. Springfield calls their imported XD's SA because they gained points with a grip safety and other internal safety features. Fully cocked or not the trigger pull weight on an XD or Glock are close to the same, with the XD being far more in length and thus my preference for the Glock trigger.
Hammer fired guns can and are carried in different condition modes and striker fired guns do not mirror those conditions.
My new friend dacaur feels that the Taurus 709 is a SA/DA gun when it is not, it only recocks the strker with a trigger pull on a dud or during a dry fire. "Second Strike" but only in a fault or during a dry fire and not in the normal cycle of a gun. So is this gun really SA/ DA, no, because it only can be used on a miss fire, dud (dead primer) and can not be used in any condition or cycle.

 

[josh2415]

Love my LCP for carry, and love my SR9c for the bedside and range. I had a KelTec PF9 a while ago, but sold it - too big for pocket carry, and too small to shoot comfortably at the range, IMO. The LC9 seems to fit in that same awkward category.

 

[gig]

I have enjoyed the various opinions about the triggers on some of the modern pistols.
It does seem the industry is trying to use terminology from the revolver world in an attempt to describe the workings of these modern pistols; but many knowledgeable folks here have shown it just does not have an exact fit.
And because there is not this exact fit, disagreements arise in what the terminology really should be.
I think we can agree the nomenclature carried over from the revolver world could use a bit of updating.

My wish in a small pistol is that it would have a trigger similar to a double action revolver which would offer a very light SA strike for accuracy; but could be carried in DA mode for safety while maintaining the thin profile, small size, and capacity of a sub-compact pistol.

To be more precise, my ideal cc piece is still a SW 438 or 638.
They can be fired inside a pocket or purse, or they can be cocked and aimed (or lasered) for an accurate shot if needed.
I would trade the ability to fire inside something for the capacity of a pistol; but do not wish to give up the trigger options.

I visualize something like a Kel Tec P-11 with a heavy DA pull for initial safety; but equiped with a "pre-cocker" lever which would pre-load the hammer or striker spring giving a nice crisp SA trigger.

Yesterday at the local gun store I fondled a Beretta Px4 sub-compact.
It is the only small pistol I know of that offers the options mentioned above; but it is still too heavy, too thick, and way too ugly........
(I could easily live with the ugly factor, if it were only lighter and thinner.)

Oh, well,,,,,if someone built the "perfect" gun, then I would have no reason to buy another, and that would not be a good thing.

 

[Mike J]

My understanding is that if the trigger only has one job to do. Then it is single action. In other words if all the trigger does is release the firing pin or striker I consider it single action. Is my XD's trigger the same as a S/A revolver or hammer fired auto? I don't think so. It actually feels more similar to a Glocks trigger but it is still SA in my mind because the trigger does not cock the striker merely releases it.
Springfield actually calls the action in the XD a USA action or some stuff. IIRC from the manual it stands for something like Universal Safe Action.

This is my understanding & I believe it is shared by a lot of folks. If you disagree that is fine it isn't really worth getting into a lengthy debate over.

 

[gig]

My understanding is that if the trigger only has one job to do. Then it is single action. In other words if all the trigger does is release the firing pin or striker I consider it single action. Is my XD's trigger the same as a S/A revolver or hammer fired auto? I don't think so. It actually feels more similar to a Glocks trigger but it is still SA in my mind because the trigger does not cock the striker merely releases it.
Springfield actually calls the action in the XD a USA action or some stuff. IIRC from the manual it stands for something like Universal Safe Action.

This is my understanding & I believe it is shared by a lot of folks. If you disagree that is fine it isn't really worth getting into a lengthy debate over.

You raise an interesting point.
I have a XDm and if you cock the striker with the slide, then slowly pull the trigger; you see that the striker indicator at the rear of the gun does not move. (at least mine does not)
However, do the same on a SR9c and as the trigger is pulled, the indicator moves to the rear.

 

[ECUfan]

The LCP, LC9, and even kel-tec's PF9 all pre-cock the hammer halfway, then the trigger finishes cocking it and then releases it

The LCP is pre-cocked??

Yea, if you can see the hammer, that means its pre-cocked, if its "at rest" you wont be able to see it. The only time it will ever be in that condition though (not pre-cocked) is if you dry fire it or the round in the chamber doesn't go "bang"

I wouldn't say half way.

Well, guess its not "exactly" halfway, but saying 1/3 cocked sounds silly... its close enough to half for me

I took a good look last night and you are right. It is in a state of semi-cock. Learn something new everyday.

 

[agentadam]

It does help with the trigger pull a little but the bad thing is, if it's like the p3at, it disables the ability to double strike.

 

[sbubrick]

Voted maybe! if I do it will replace my Kel-tec PF9........ Getting to the point of thining out the heard. I purchased the Kel-tec P3at 9 years ago. Then came the LPC, purchased two. The kel-tec sits in the safe and has not been out for a long time. Most af my carry is in Vegas, HOT most of the year........ In my opinon the Ruger is a more refined gun. better fit, finish, feel, and looks.