Training under stress

[protoolman]

I decided to start a specific thread for this since it got brought up an another thread drift discussion. So my idea as a career law enforcement officer and firearms trainer is this: most police training , tactical training etc. never introduces stress other than time limits or forcing you to shoot off hand or behind cover etc. when I train civilians I tried something I started with my wife. I simulated an attacker. I had her point her 5 shot revolver at a silhouette target and talk-engage. My scenario was this: A man is trying to come in your door at night and your family is inside. 10 ft distance. Tell him to STOP . I'm standing beside her saying he's not stopping. Convince him stop! Stop ! Still not stopping he's through the door advancing -not listening- he's threatening " f... You bit.h!" Bang Bang 2 shots center mass or head shot if that's what's visible - hold your position and aim. Empty the 5 shots if he's not stopped - don't retreat as it spoils your aim.
This ramps up her stress level a lot. Exactly what makes people freeze, mess up, miss etc. Most (good ) cops go through a few real life confrontations and learn to be cold and calculating under duress.Thats what I try to teach to civilians. I'm considering this as a more advanced class for women after they master 1 weapon. The one they have. I'm pretty flexible on the choosing of weapons. Anything reliable they already have. My goal is they are confident with what they have and ready to use it. I teach unarmed defense, pepper spray, firearms whatever. I don't teach them to apologize, plead or hope for the best. I teach them to get mad and focus on a very calculating focused way until the threat is gone. What are your thoughts about training under duress? Am I right or wrong?

 

[Johnnu2]

I have expensive sneakers and train to run away.......
We don't go out much, and never to places of "ill repute".
Shotguns for home defense....spray and pray.
Almost 82: so far, so good.... :unsure:

J.

 

[41Dude]

I decided to start a specific thread for this since it got brought up an another thread drift discussion. So my idea as a career law enforcement officer and firearms trainer is this: most police training , tactical training etc. never introduces stress other than time limits or forcing you to shoot off hand or behind cover etc. when I train civilians I tried something I started with my wife. I simulated an attacker. I had her point her 5 shot revolver at a silhouette target and talk-engage. My scenario was this: A man is trying to come in your door at night and your family is inside. 10 ft distance. Tell him to STOP

100% Great idea

 

[protoolman]

I have expensive sneakers and train to run away.......
We don't go out much, and never to places of "ill repute".
Shotguns for home defense....spray and pray.
Almost 82: so far, so good.... :unsure:

J.

Heck, if I thought I could get my wife interested in shotgun operation what could be more positive than a load of buckshot!

 

[M118LR]

Anything you can do that directs fight or flight into positive action should be helpful.

When the first copper jacketed mosquito startles you (fear factor) those that return fire usually become aggravated that the aggressor had the audacity to shoot at them. That anger seems to avoid inaction., and creates focus. JMHO YMMV.

 

[contender]

I've been a long time believer of training that induces stress.

For overall training,, I've found that the game of USPSA,, adds a bit of stress,,, AND it makes you very proficient with a firearm. You are presented with challenges,, you have to think, AND try & go as fast & as accurate as you can. It also allows for "strong hand" & "weak hand" shooting. It can also have unloaded starts, mandatory reloads, and the best ones,, are when a gun malfunctions. You have to try & "fix" it under the clock.

Once you master very good gun handling skills,, adding any form of stress is good.

For tactical type of training,, your presentation is also very good. But as you mentioned,, the person needs to be proficient with their chosen firearm BEFORE adding such stress. This is why I promote USPSA as a good stepping stone towards that.

 

[blume357]

Twice I took a force on force class at the Sig Academy .... that is what the class is designed for... but in addition to the stress part .... you really have very little idea of what is going to happen other than first having explained you you where you are as in food court at the mall or sitting in your dentist office. But the other part to these classes was you are wearing a vest, neck protection and helmet with full face protection because often the bad guy that shows up is shooting you with specially designed ammo that fragments on contact. This ammo is shot out of standard Sig pistols that have been modified to use it. You are also issued one of these pistols and ammo... one part that is interesting is if hit in the arm or hand not protected you will usually bleed some. I don't think they offer this class anymore... it was actually a private class given by an ex-sig instructor named Todd Rasso...

 

[Mobuck]

I concur. I see far too many folks who equate 'shooting range accuracy' to real life confrontation potential accuracy. I've also seen the effects of 'buck fever' in normally excellent marksmen who can shoot MOA on paper.

 

[XUSNORDIE]

For certain quals getting the heart rate up by physical/mental exertion, timed evolutions and targeted sarcastic screaming was used. For SSET/W and SRT the students ran from barricade to barricade or station to station with us behind screaming "insults" either about their abilities or even their looks. Anything to rattle them. For Aircrew (Pilots/RIOs/etc) same thing. Running from station to station screaming, counting down time in a demeaning way. They used weapons issued from their squadrons. So either a 1911, MOD39, or a MOD36. I had one Pilot so flustered while trying to reload his MOD36 he kept fumbling the rounds and dropping them. When I yelled "TIME!! CEASEFIRE!! YOU ARE DEAD SIR. WE WILL INFORM YOUR FAMILY IT'S BECAUSE YOU CAN"T RELOAD 5 ROUNDS"......he dropped the rounds and threw the weapon down range and became irate. He was promptly escorted off range and picked up by his command. Myself and the other SAMI with me, along with our DIV O and DIV SRNCO had to make a trip to the XO's office on mainside to brief (this was not XOI). The Pilots CO and someone else was there. Myself and the other SAMI each reported to the XO (separately) the details, and were excused. Never heard anything else about it.

My youngest Son went through ECS just recently. Pretty much the same thing. Instructors induced a lot of mental stress via sarcastic screaming and remarks. During early rifle phase (M4) my Son said he reassembled his weapon first every time. That brought attention to him (he built his own AR at 11 and others after). The instructor got in his face asking why he always assembles it first and correct. His answer...."Because you told me to Instructor"....he earned the nickname "Gump" for that. They used it to try and get into his head throughout the last phases. What they didn't know was that he loved that movie and can recite just about any line and do a dang good Gump impersonation. So he kind of threw it back at them at times....and earned a few push ups for it. But still aced the phase and came out of it with the "E" on his rifle ribbon.

The difference between my day and what my Son has so far experienced is that we induced "stress" but did nothing to teach how to handle the stress we induced. It was like we left it on them to figure it out themselves from the experience. The instructors my Son experienced had their fun....but then also spent time individually with each student going over what they observed and how to correct it. Both mechanics and stress induced mistakes.

 

[Johnnu2]

"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth": Mike Tyson
;)
J.

 

[xTopGun]

I decided to start a specific thread for this since it got brought up an another thread drift discussion. So my idea as a career law enforcement officer and firearms trainer is this: most police training , tactical training etc. never introduces stress other than time limits or forcing you to shoot off hand or behind cover etc. when I train civilians I tried something I started with my wife. I simulated an attacker. I had her point her 5 shot revolver at a silhouette target and talk-engage. My scenario was this: A man is trying to come in your door at night and your family is inside. 10 ft distance. Tell him to STOP . I'm standing beside her saying he's not stopping. Convince him stop! Stop ! Still not stopping he's through the door advancing -not listening- he's threatening " f... You bit.h!" Bang Bang 2 shots center mass or head shot if that's what's visible - hold your position and aim. Empty the 5 shots if he's not stopped - don't retreat as it spoils your aim.
This ramps up her stress level a lot. Exactly what makes people freeze, mess up, miss etc. Most (good ) cops go through a few real life confrontations and learn to be cold and calculating under duress.Thats what I try to teach to civilians. I'm considering this as a more advanced class for women after they master 1 weapon. The one they have. I'm pretty flexible on the choosing of weapons. Anything reliable they already have. My goal is they are confident with what they have and ready to use it. I teach unarmed defense, pepper spray, firearms whatever. I don't teach them to apologize, plead or hope for the best. I teach them to get mad and focus on a very calculating focused way until the threat is gone. What are your thoughts about training under duress? Am I right or wrong?

if the first 2 didn't work, and she uses up the last 3 and they still don't work, what then.... can she retreat now as she throws the gun at them - - - Situational Awareness first & foremost ... jmo

 

[protoolman]

if the first 2 didn't work, and she uses up the last 3 and they still don't work, what then.... can she retreat now as she throws the gun at them - - - Situational Awareness first & foremost ... jmo

Yup, should be easy to outrun a guy bleeding from hopefully 4 or 5 solid hits or fight him if necessary. If you missed with all 5 he's probably taken the gun away from you anyway. I want her to have hit the intruder and be out of ammo. A strong person subduing a weak person and now holding a gun with a full mag minus the one round which missed him when the lady closed her eyes and pulled the trigger is what I'm trying to avoid. I also teaght all my employees to never stop fighting. If you lose your gun , pepper spray whatever. I told officers to get the stiffest hard soled boots or steel toes and issued big tactical lock blade knives for cutting seat belts of course!

 

[xTopGun]

Yup, should be easy to outrun a guy bleeding from hopefully 4 or 5 solid hits or fight him if necessary. If you missed with all 5 he's probably taken the gun away from you anyway. I want her to have hit the intruder and be out of ammo. A strong person subduing a weak person and now holding a gun with a full mag minus the one round which missed him when the lady closed her eyes and pulled the trigger is what I'm trying to avoid. I also teaght all my employees to never stop fighting. If you lose your gun , pepper spray whatever. I told officers to get the stiffest hard soled boots or steel toes and issued big tactical lock blade knives for cutting seat belts of course!

I understand the premise of your training, but it has to be multi-faceted, not everyone learns in the same manner. Some people will shut down from the screaming which will just defeat the purpose . . . . .

 

[protoolman]

I understand the premise of your training, but it has to be multi-faceted, not everyone learns in the same manner. Some people will shut down from the screaming which will just defeat the purpose . . . . .

Of course that's why I'm trying to introduce the stress. A bit of realism. To see how they respond. They may decide guns are not for them at all. But it might start a discussion about locking doors, pepper spray or something else. I try to train as practical as possible. Training people to be advanced ninjas is never going to happen. I'm reaching people who might want to take a basic self defense class or firearms class. With luck I can teach them to be calm and shoot straight and think a bit about safety to avoid problems. 99 percent of my friends wives don't carry or have autos that they don't even remember how to operate on a good day at the range when they are calm with someone reminding them. I believe, light loads, in a point and pull the trigger firearm, serves them best. A Dao auto or revolver. No manual safety. Unless they already have something I can help them become familiar with. Simple/ practical. This is all stuff I've been messing with over the years. I want to develop it into a real course over time. I don't at this point in time know if I will with insurance range access etc. The best course would probably be to partner with a younger professional woman and develop it into a fun training course to get soccer moms to drop their apprehensions and have fun. Really at this stage I'm still just thinking. Probably just keep training friends and family members. I'm long retired from training police officers.

 

[XUSNORDIE]

Some people will shut down from the screaming which will just defeat the purpose .

If they shut down from that then they most likely won't have a chance of surviving a attack or high tempo situation.

 

[xTopGun]

If they shut down from that then they most likely won't have a chance of surviving a attack or high tempo situation.

but, isn't the whole purpose of training to work around such obstacles and get them past that point. One size pants don't fit everyone.....

 

[XUSNORDIE]

but, isn't the whole purpose of training to work around such obstacles and get them past that point. One size pants don't fit everyone.....

Oh I totally agree.....sometimes I could tell during the classroom phase who was going to be weeded out. Some folks are destined to be victims no matter what.

 

[xTopGun]

Oh I totally agree.....sometimes I could tell during the classroom phase who was going to be weeded out. Some folks are destined to be victims no matter what.

the first time I did a night re-qual for my Chief I realized what a total buffoon he was after he shot out 2 ceiling lights and left several ricochets off the wall. We were all just lucky that he was in the 1st station and not somewhere in the middle, lord only knows where his rounds would have gone. Then he had the audacity to challenge me for failing him. He made sure that he never had to do a recert with me again..... what does that tell you about the inner workings of police work.....

 

[kmoore]

I am talking about cops out of basic firearms training. They had been shooting, reloading cardboard targets. The main stress for some was the timed fire.
The next step during the yearly trimester 4 hours of range. We had to conduct the approved qualification. That was 30 mins or so, the rest of the time was shooting at any type of target, distance, shoot, no shoot. etc etc. changing the training up each time. The main point was adding stress. New and different shooting, induced jams, use of cover, multiple targets, starting in a vehicle, in a house, jogging to a shooting position, shooting moving targets. Sometimes induced distractions.
1 common point of all that was the shooter had to make decisions. Decisions about shooting, how many rounds, at which target. Use of cover, when to reload. etc etc. This was done with handguns, shotguns and rifles. Normally 1 shooter going through at a time, others waiting outside of view of the training. Some always did well and some always had problems. A rangemaster would debrief each after. This point we though was very important; all scenarios were winnable if the officer/shooter did as was trained.
To conduct advanced training the basic's need to be instilled and proven to the rangemasters 1st.

 

[XUSNORDIE]

I am talking about cops out of basic firearms training. They had been shooting, reloading cardboard targets. The main stress for some was the timed fire.
The next step during the yearly trimester 4 hours of range. We had to conduct the approved qualification. That was 30 mins or so, the rest of the time was shooting at any type of target, distance, shoot, no shoot. etc etc. changing the training up each time. The main point was adding stress. New and different shooting, induced jams, use of cover, multiple targets, starting in a vehicle, in a house, jogging to a shooting position, shooting moving targets. Sometimes induced distractions.
1 common point of all that was the shooter had to make decisions. Decisions about shooting, how many rounds, at which target. Use of cover, when to reload. etc etc. This was done with handguns, shotguns and rifles. Normally 1 shooter going through at a time, others waiting outside of view of the training. Some always did well and some always had problems. A rangemaster would debrief each after. This point we though was very important; all scenarios were winnable if the officer/shooter did as was trained.
To conduct advanced training the basic's need to be instilled and proven to the rangemasters 1st.

That was the main idea of FATS when it came out. Many thought it was going to be like a video game. It was not and did induce high tempo stress scenarios and create some much needed quick thinking/reaction. That was early 90's.

My youngest Son recently went through ECS (Expeditionary Combat School). Aside from what I already mentioned in a previous post I was surprised to hear that type of training is still in use, and fascinated at how much more it has developed. Everything from pistol/carbine firing static from vehicle or patrolling streets/alleys/roadside/etc...carbine to pistol transition, to M2 turret mount on convoy, and IED identification. It was a panoramic screen around the training area. There was even an area with a actual MRAP you fired from. He said some of the scenarios definitely got you stress level up and forced you to mentally lock in forgetting you were in a room at times.

 

[M118LR]

Guess most civilians could go paintballing or to the lazer tag arcade. They at least have some element of conflict.

 

[kmoore]

That was the main idea of FATS when it came out. Many thought it was going to be like a video game. It was not and did induce high tempo stress scenarios and create some much needed quick thinking/reaction. That was early 90's.

My youngest Son recently went through ECS (Expeditionary Combat School). Aside from what I already mentioned in a previous post I was surprised to hear that type of training is still in use, and fascinated at how much more it has developed. Everything from pistol/carbine firing static from vehicle or patrolling streets/alleys/roadside/etc...carbine to pistol transition, to M2 turret mount on convoy, and IED identification. It was a panoramic screen around the training area. There was even an area with a actual MRAP you fired from. He said some of the scenarios definitely got you stress level up and forced you to mentally lock in forgetting you were in a room at times.

We had FATS for years, scenarios that were used? some good, most were basic. When we got it up and running, I transferred into dicks to a street crimes unit. I was asked to be on training staff for FATS. But, I wouldn't spare the time. Other range master friends staffed it. I asked them and was told their were surprised some long in tooth street cops could not make decisions. That's what the FATS DVDs we had helped with, making decisions just like the advanced/tactical firearms at the range we were doing. But it FATS if a cop screwed up he got shot from a crook on a screen. (for those not knowing FATS) I went through FATS a number of times.

 

[blume357]

One of the things I recognize as a person who often carries is police officers are more conditioned just from their daily jobs to deal with stress than I ever will be, It is good that some departments take this even further in their training. I think I've done just a tad more than most of the 'citizens' here but still I'm not going to say I won't freeze or totally lose it if the sh#t hits the fan.

 

[usmc69]

The best stress shooting that I have done outside of actual compitition is man on man. By man on man, I mean two shooters side by side shooting at identical sets of targets with instructors trying to distract you while you are shooting. Actual compitition will separate that that can shoot well under duress mentally. Had a shooter that could clean a course of fire in practice, but put him in a competition on the same course of fire, he'd choke and shoot 15 or so points lower.

 

[Sky Pilot]

It was enlightening when our rangemaster arranged a moving target.
The silhouette target advanced at walking speed toward the qualifying officer.
That was stressful for the new guys and unnerved a few of the old veterans.

 

[John Andrews]

I decided to start a specific thread for this since it got brought up an another thread drift discussion. So my idea as a career law enforcement officer and firearms trainer is this: most police training , tactical training etc. never introduces stress other than time limits or forcing you to shoot off hand or behind cover etc. when I train civilians I tried something I started with my wife. I simulated an attacker. I had her point her 5 shot revolver at a silhouette target and talk-engage. My scenario was this: A man is trying to come in your door at night and your family is inside. 10 ft distance. Tell him to STOP . I'm standing beside her saying he's not stopping. Convince him stop! Stop ! Still not stopping he's through the door advancing -not listening- he's threatening " f... You bit.h!" Bang Bang 2 shots center mass or head shot if that's what's visible - hold your position and aim. Empty the 5 shots if he's not stopped - don't retreat as it spoils your aim.
This ramps up her stress level a lot. Exactly what makes people freeze, mess up, miss etc. Most (good ) cops go through a few real life confrontations and learn to be cold and calculating under duress.Thats what I try to teach to civilians. I'm considering this as a more advanced class for women after they master 1 weapon. The one they have. I'm pretty flexible on the choosing of weapons. Anything reliable they already have. My goal is they are confident with what they have and ready to use it. I teach unarmed defense, pepper spray, firearms whatever. I don't teach them to apologize, plead or hope for the best. I teach them to get mad and focus on a very calculating focused way until the threat is gone. What are your thoughts about training under duress? Am I right or wrong?

From my 30 years of professional experience and patrol duty, you are absolutely correct.