SteveSt
Bearcat
I only have a few 44s and I love shooting them. I am on restriction now due to surgery, so I'm staying smaller than a 38, but I really miss shooting my Dan Wesson 44 with the different barrels. And the other 44s I have as well.
The Dying 44?
- Thread starter peachhead
- Start date
Next to a 357sig pretty much the same. Perfectly adequate within their limitations. Kinda like a 460 Rowland vs the 113 year old 45acp. Next to the new S&W's the 44 is absolutely mediocre in comparison.
Last edited:
Awesome set. This is my only 44. Dan Wesson was made for Mad Scientists!!! Stock rifling not cutting it with your creations??? A call to Douglas or Pac Nor and you can have custom twist rates and rifling cuts for anything you can hurl!!!
Attachments
Last edited:
Listen, I feel your pain, and going through the process of dealing with dead guns is very hard on a person. I have years of experience helping people get through the process, so I offer my services, gratis. Just package them all up, send them to me, and I will take care of the rest. Your guns will be treated with utmost respect and dignity through the entire process.
Do you walk through the produce aisle and compare apples to watermelons so you can justify buying a box of blue berries?
Thanks a lot, now I'm hungry. But I do see your point.
gundog5
Single-Sixer
I love my .44s. I shoot them a lot more than my 9mm. They are a lot more interesting to cast bullets for, load and shoot.
BuckRimfire
Single-Sixer
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2012
- Messages
- 135
The .454 is certainly a big step above the .44 Mag.
Handloader had a piece about "Redhawk-only" .44 +P loads. I made up a few with H110 and 300 grain SWC-GC bullets that chronoed an average of 1410 FPS. Extraction was slightly sticky, but if I had a real "need" for this sort of thing, I would be willing to make and shoot more of these in small quantities. I labeled the package of ammo ".434 Casull" as a joke.
I'm not interested in foot-pounds. Chasing foot-pounds favors light, fast bullets. I prefer mid- to slightly heavy-for-caliber bullets. Better to calculate Power Factor if you require a number (which is really just another term for momentum). I believe that it is a better proxy for recoil since momentum is conserved on both sides of the primer, if I'm not mistaken. So, a standard .44 load with a 240 grain bullet at the same velocity (reasonable?) would be PF 338, and my +P reload would be 423. Pulling a max load for the .454 from Hodgdon's load data: 325 grain at 1545 FPS gives 502 PF so still quite a bit above the .44 +P. The Redhawk-only loads basically close half of the gap to the Casull.
Based on shooting those +Ps, I could see shooting a Casull (or maybe even a .480 Ruger) for really big animals, but the S&W super-magnums seem quite insane to me!
Attachments
It's like comparing the 44 magnum to the newer, hotter 460 or 500S&W. The 357sig similarly eclipses the 9mm in performance from a similar package.
OP
Agreed! I Don't own a 9 mm so I don't have to load for it, but I do have a 380 and that is the single most irritating round to reload I have ever dealt with.
IMO the 44 magnum is like a 426 hemi. In it's day the most powerful thing around. It's been blown, injected, ported, polished and relieved. Not much is being published about it either because everyone wants a Hellcat Engine for their lawnmower now and they haven't made 426's in about 50 years.
TINCANBANDIT is back
Single-Sixer
"They" (gunwriters) said that about the .44 Magnum around 1970, then Dirty Harry came about.....
The .44 is my favorite caliber, I own 8 of them
Ruger Super Redhawk 7.5"
Ruger Super Blackhawk 10.5" blued
Dan Wesson M44 stainless 6"
S&W model 29-3 6"
S&W model 629 Classic Hunter 6"
Marlin 1894 20"
Winchester M 94 16" saddle ring carbine
Ruger 44 Carbine
The .44 is my favorite caliber, I own 8 of them
Ruger Super Redhawk 7.5"
Ruger Super Blackhawk 10.5" blued
Dan Wesson M44 stainless 6"
S&W model 29-3 6"
S&W model 629 Classic Hunter 6"
Marlin 1894 20"
Winchester M 94 16" saddle ring carbine
Ruger 44 Carbine
vlavalle
Blackhawk
I have been involved with guns and ammo for over 55 years, and I never heard of the Power Factor you mentioned, nor how it is derived. Ft. lbs. IS a momentum calculation, and it is based on the mass times the speed squared. So, obviously, speed has a bigger factor in the power rating than the size of the bullet. In general, in handgun and rifle ammo, the most powerful rounds are not the biggest bullet, but a combination between the bullet's size (weight) and its speed. There are a few exception, especially with the smaller calibers, where they have an extremely small bullet at very high speed, and get a high calculated power (in ft. lbs.), which I think is rather misleading, and not realistic for hunting nor for self defense, so I tend to disregard these in general.
Here are some examples of these: (1) .357 Sig with 90 gr at 1,700 fps, delivering 577 ft. lbs (High power).(Underwood), (2) .357 MAG 50 gr at 2,100 fps delivering 575 ft. lbs. (medium power)(Liberty Ammunition), (3) 10mm with a bullet of 60 gr traveling at 2,400 fps (high power)(Liberty Civil Defense), (4) 9mm with a bullet of 65 gr at 1,700 fps, delivering 427 ft. lbs. (med High power)(Underwood).
Also, the industry standard of measuring power, and not just for ammo, IS ft. lbs. In case you or others are not aware, a ft. lbs. (foot pound) is the amount of energy needed to move an object of 1 lb. one foot., not accounting for any friction, which of course would change any calculation if friction was to be part of the power equation needed to move an object. But shooting into the air reduces the friction to a very low factor until you get into very high speeds, like the SR-71 which travels faster than just about any bullet. Also, friction is not a factor at all when measuring the Muzzle Energy (ME) of any gun, because the bullet has not yet traveled anywhere since this measure is right at the point of launch - at the muzzle of the barrel, with its Muzzle Velocity (MV).
So, how is this Power Factor calculated? And is it used anywhere else outside of guns?
vlavalle
Blackhawk
Back again - I did a few calculations from your table, and turned them into ft. lbs. (1) The 270 bullet traveling at 1,511 produces 1,368 ft. lbs., which is about the max of the .45 Colt ammo (Buffalo Bore). (2) The 300 .44 Mag bullet traveling at 1,390 produces only 1,269 ft. lbs. of ME. (3) The 310 gr bullet traveling at 1,495 produces 1,538 ft. lbs., which is equivalent to the highest powered already-manufactured .44 Mag round made (Buffalo Bore).
IHMSA is about energy transfer. A fast bullet that vaporizes on impact doesn't transfer a lot of energy to heavy steel targets.
BuckRimfire
Single-Sixer
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2012
- Messages
- 135
Momentum and kinetic energy are NOT the same thing. This is basic physics. Consult any physics textbook.
I don't hunt because I'm too lazy, but I like shooting magnum revolvers for the thump. One advantage of slower, heavier loads is that they contain less powder, so a max load has a bit less muzzle blast with a heavy bullet. The first box of .44 Magnum ammo I bought was Remington 185 gr JHP because that's all that was available when I got my Redhawk. Loud! I like recoil more than I like noise.
People who do hunt large animals with handguns tend to favor heavier and slower bullets which look worse from a kinetic energy standpoint than light fast bullets, but supposedly penetrate much better and do more damage as a result.
PF is mass times velocity, which is the same as momentum. When using grains of bullet weight and feet per second, the result is divided by 1000 to give a more convenient three digit number (or four digit for a big rifle cartridge). PF is used in gun games (e.g. IDPA or USPSA) as a proxy for recoil, so competitors have to shoot samples of their ammo to be sure they're not using excessively light ammo to gain an advantage in split times.
PF isn't a perfect proxy for recoil because the "rocket" effect of the powder gases coming out has a contribution, and that is probably perceptible but not a huge variable, so people ignore it for convenience.
https://www.ssusa.org/content/understanding-the-power-factor/
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/311430-are-all-power-factors-the-same/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor_(shooting_sports)
https://www.dillonprecision.com/power-factor-calculator.html
BuckRimfire
Single-Sixer
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2012
- Messages
- 135
Also this.
BuckRimfire
Single-Sixer
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2012
- Messages
- 135
Hopefully you're not so old that you can't learn something new.
Ouch. Let's turn down the snarky just a bit. A lot of information and camaraderie on this forum. No need to throw gasoline on it.
vlavalle
Blackhawk
Of course not, and that is why I asked what a Power Factor is and how it is calculated. So, now I see it is simply mass times velocity, whereas real power is mass times velocity squared. And it appears to be used only in games? If this is the case, then no wonder I have never heard of it before. I do not play any computer games. Is it used in the real world as well? PF is not mentioned on any ammo or gun manufacturer's web sites. But of course, ft. lbs. is referenced almost everywhere.
Last edited:
Power factor helps determine what class you will compete in. Major or Minor for example. 9mm would usually be a minor and 40+ usually major. Though it's possible to get loads that aren't.
vlavalle
Blackhawk
'Major' and 'Minor' what? Is this some sort of official classes of shooting at real shooting ranges?
The use of major and minor power factors started with Jeff Cooper and IPSC way back in the 70's or perhaps even earlier as a way to measure the momentum of a cartridge. To score major a round had to factor at least 175 using bullet weight X velocity. A cartridge scoring minor had to score a minimum of 125. In target scoring on the IPSC target both rounds would receive 5 points for a center hit (A zone) but the minor round received a lower score for hits in the B,C, and D zones than the major cartridge (google IPSC target scoring rings for an illustration). As an example a 200 grain bullet at 900 FPS has a power factor of 180 while a 115 grain bullet at 1100 FPS had a PF of 126. The purpose was to reward the more powerful but heavier recoiling round while penalizing the lighter, softer shooting rounds. Bullet diameter did not play into the measurement.
As noted above this method of "power" calculation has been in use for at least 50 years among those shooting in the "practical" shooting sports.
contender
Ruger Guru
valvalle,, you have uncovered something new to your shooting knowledge,, AND by doing so, have allowed others who haven't heard of "power factor" or it's use to get a good overview of what it means.
The explanations above delve into most of it,, and even truly point to the more technical info. All very good info for those unfamiliar with it.
As a long time USPSA competitor,, who prior to 1998 had very little knowledge of it as well, I got introduced to it's use. It is used in real gun competitions as a way of trying to level the playing field for competition. It's not a computer game thing,, it is real world.
When I started in 1998,, I discovered that USPSA had a way of "measuring" felt recoil by using what is known as power factor. The basic formula is "Bullet weight, X velocity, divided by 1000." And USPSA had what is known as "Major" & "Minor" power factor (p/f). It used to be,, for competition, the dividing line was a p/f of 175. Many years ago,, for the USPSA game,, it was reduced to 165.
When I started in USPSA,, I was using a 1911 in .45 acp. The most common bullet is a 230 grn round nose. Factory ammo usually chrono's at about 850-925 fps depending upon the maker. Using that, let's look at a factory p/f. Using a 230 grn bullet & the velocity of 850, we get; 230 x 850 =195500. Divide that number by 1000, and you get a p/f of 195.5. Or 20.5 points above the threshold required to make "Major." In USPSA,, the SCORING on a target is divided into different levels of points depending upon where you hit a target. No matter what p/f you are shooting,, a hit in the "A" zone gives you 5 points. BUT,, outside the "A" zone the score changes. A "B" or "C" zone hit,, the score is 4 points for major, and 3 for minor. A "D" zone hit is worth 2 points for major & 1 point for minor.
The concept of using p/f as a measuring device for USPSA is because a heavier bullet traveling faster has more recoil, while a lighter bullet traveling slower has less recoil. It translates into how fast a competitor can recover from each shot, and be back on target.
Using an extreme example,, compare it to how easy & fast you can shoot a .22 LR as compared to a .44 magnum.
In USPSA,, the way the scores are calculated is your score (points) divided by your time. That gives us a scoring method called "Hit Factor." Let's say a course of fire is designed to where you have 16 targets to be engaged with 2 rounds each. That's 32 rounds required. If all hits are in the "A" zone, the max number of points will be 160. But if competitor A shoots the course in 20.5 seconds,, and competitor B shoots it in 21.5 seconds, the Hit Factor will be higher for competitor A. Competitor A will have a h/f of 7.804, while competitor B will have a h/f of 7.441.
In USPSA,, the game is about combining speed & accuracy to be the winner.
So,, when a given caliber, load & recoil are all combined,, a competitor want something that will allow him to be as fast as possible. Power factor is a way to try & keep the scoring as close to equal as possible.
Most competitors reload,, and they build a load for their gun that meets the criteria for the necessary category. Nowadays,, with a p/f criteria at 165 for making "major" and to be legal, a p/f of 125 is required for "minor." So a reloader will try & build an accurate load where it's just above the threshold to make p/f,, to allow themselves the softer recoil and to be quicker on the recoil recovery for their next shots. In 9mm a shooter may be using a bullet of 147 at a velocity of 850 fps,, and would fail chrono. That makes it's p/f 124.95. but if they build a load with the velocity of 875 fps,, they get a p/f of 128.6. It passes. And using a 1911 in .45 acp,, using a 230 grn bullet at 725 fps,,will get a p/f of 166.7. It'll pass.
But most reloaders build in a small buffer for their ammo,, if it's too close to failing chrono. A .45, 230 grn going at 735 fps will get a p/f of 169.0 pf,, and easily pass chrono. If you shot a 9mm 147 grn bullet at 735 fps, the p/f would get a p/f of 108.0. VERY soft recoil & has a p/f difference of 61 points.
Now that I've detailed the how's & why's of it,, let's look at what actually happens.
By shooting a larger caliber even at slow speeds you get a higher p/f than a smaller lighter bullet going faster. The physics translate into energy & that's where recoil is at. That, and downrange,, a bullet going very slow is not as effective as one going faster in general.
In SASS competition,, they do not use p/f and you can see some REALLY light loads used. You can watch a bullet fly to the target.
I have watched a guy shooting .45 Colts,, with his stated velocity of "about 500 fps" and his bullets barely dinged the steel.
Power factor boils down to a more simple way of measuring energy when shooting. And it's a great way for the casual shooter to figure out a good load they can shoot AND be effective for what their intended use is.
The explanations above delve into most of it,, and even truly point to the more technical info. All very good info for those unfamiliar with it.
As a long time USPSA competitor,, who prior to 1998 had very little knowledge of it as well, I got introduced to it's use. It is used in real gun competitions as a way of trying to level the playing field for competition. It's not a computer game thing,, it is real world.
When I started in 1998,, I discovered that USPSA had a way of "measuring" felt recoil by using what is known as power factor. The basic formula is "Bullet weight, X velocity, divided by 1000." And USPSA had what is known as "Major" & "Minor" power factor (p/f). It used to be,, for competition, the dividing line was a p/f of 175. Many years ago,, for the USPSA game,, it was reduced to 165.
When I started in USPSA,, I was using a 1911 in .45 acp. The most common bullet is a 230 grn round nose. Factory ammo usually chrono's at about 850-925 fps depending upon the maker. Using that, let's look at a factory p/f. Using a 230 grn bullet & the velocity of 850, we get; 230 x 850 =195500. Divide that number by 1000, and you get a p/f of 195.5. Or 20.5 points above the threshold required to make "Major." In USPSA,, the SCORING on a target is divided into different levels of points depending upon where you hit a target. No matter what p/f you are shooting,, a hit in the "A" zone gives you 5 points. BUT,, outside the "A" zone the score changes. A "B" or "C" zone hit,, the score is 4 points for major, and 3 for minor. A "D" zone hit is worth 2 points for major & 1 point for minor.
The concept of using p/f as a measuring device for USPSA is because a heavier bullet traveling faster has more recoil, while a lighter bullet traveling slower has less recoil. It translates into how fast a competitor can recover from each shot, and be back on target.
Using an extreme example,, compare it to how easy & fast you can shoot a .22 LR as compared to a .44 magnum.
In USPSA,, the way the scores are calculated is your score (points) divided by your time. That gives us a scoring method called "Hit Factor." Let's say a course of fire is designed to where you have 16 targets to be engaged with 2 rounds each. That's 32 rounds required. If all hits are in the "A" zone, the max number of points will be 160. But if competitor A shoots the course in 20.5 seconds,, and competitor B shoots it in 21.5 seconds, the Hit Factor will be higher for competitor A. Competitor A will have a h/f of 7.804, while competitor B will have a h/f of 7.441.
In USPSA,, the game is about combining speed & accuracy to be the winner.
So,, when a given caliber, load & recoil are all combined,, a competitor want something that will allow him to be as fast as possible. Power factor is a way to try & keep the scoring as close to equal as possible.
Most competitors reload,, and they build a load for their gun that meets the criteria for the necessary category. Nowadays,, with a p/f criteria at 165 for making "major" and to be legal, a p/f of 125 is required for "minor." So a reloader will try & build an accurate load where it's just above the threshold to make p/f,, to allow themselves the softer recoil and to be quicker on the recoil recovery for their next shots. In 9mm a shooter may be using a bullet of 147 at a velocity of 850 fps,, and would fail chrono. That makes it's p/f 124.95. but if they build a load with the velocity of 875 fps,, they get a p/f of 128.6. It passes. And using a 1911 in .45 acp,, using a 230 grn bullet at 725 fps,,will get a p/f of 166.7. It'll pass.
But most reloaders build in a small buffer for their ammo,, if it's too close to failing chrono. A .45, 230 grn going at 735 fps will get a p/f of 169.0 pf,, and easily pass chrono. If you shot a 9mm 147 grn bullet at 735 fps, the p/f would get a p/f of 108.0. VERY soft recoil & has a p/f difference of 61 points.
Now that I've detailed the how's & why's of it,, let's look at what actually happens.
By shooting a larger caliber even at slow speeds you get a higher p/f than a smaller lighter bullet going faster. The physics translate into energy & that's where recoil is at. That, and downrange,, a bullet going very slow is not as effective as one going faster in general.
In SASS competition,, they do not use p/f and you can see some REALLY light loads used. You can watch a bullet fly to the target.
I have watched a guy shooting .45 Colts,, with his stated velocity of "about 500 fps" and his bullets barely dinged the steel.
Power factor boils down to a more simple way of measuring energy when shooting. And it's a great way for the casual shooter to figure out a good load they can shoot AND be effective for what their intended use is.
settup6
Single-Sixer
Thanks Contender, you cleared up a several questions I had about power factor and competition shooting!
It's sort of a difficulty factor. Controlling a minor is easier than a major. Minor rounds are usually smaller giving a capacity advantage as well. A 9mm will usually hold more than a 45 and recoil less. Also a hit with a major can generally be considered more effective.
vlavalle
Blackhawk
Well, this sounds like this term is used solely in some sort of competitive shooting and contests then? I fully agree that shooting the much smaller, and lighter rounds would be a lot easier. But I also question this measurement, especially when you tell me that it has been around for at least 50 years. The reason why I question it, is not that I doubt its validity, but that it is not mentioned anywhere - not by any ammo or gun manufacturer, nor online with any of the gun/shooting videos, and I have watched a lot of them. Of course, there may be some references somewhere online, and that there may be a world that uses this term and measuring method, but it does not seem to have any real significance.
But I am not against this factor's attempt to try to equalize to some degree the huge differences in power, kick, and effort it takes to shoot the various calibers and loads thereof. I read a lot about how the 9mm is so great, and that you can even go hunting with it, and when hunting larger game (not real large game), it is still effective. But it really is a pea shooter, and the average power (in ft lbs.) is only 350 ft. lbs., and this caliber is constantly compared to the .45 ACP, which is NOT a pea shooter at all. So, when using this Power Factor, it shows this huge difference between the 9mm and the .45 ACP because it is not relying on the speed factor so much as the ft. lb. measuring technique does. The 'average' .45 ACP round is around 425 ft. lbs., which doesn't look as if there is so much difference.
vlavalle
Blackhawk
Great comment 41Dude! Thanks.
