taper crimp die question

[Johnnu2]

I see a lot of references to the Lee 'factory crimp' die. It appears that this is nothing more than a plain ole 'taper crimp' die. Q1: am I correct in this assumption? Q2: why is this the leading recommendation when RCBS (and others) have been making a plain taper crimp die for years?
THANKS,
John

 

[Jimbo357mag]

The Lee 'factory crimp' die varies in it's type of crimp according to the cartridge. The revolver rounds have a roll crimp. The semi-auto's have a taper crimp. The rifle rounds have a collar crimp.

An additional feature of the straight walled case dies is that there is a post sizing carbide ring that irons the case out as it is withdrawn from the die. It makes sure the case is not bulged but can also reduce the diameter of some large lead bullets.

 

[mikld]

Jimbo gave a good description of Lee's FCDs, rifle and pistol (many are confused and/or use the same name for both). In my opinion, and I am not a Lee hater, the Lee FCD for handgun cartridges is worthless. I had been reloading for 25+ years before I tried an FCD (out of curiosity). I tried one for my .44 Magnums. The Lee FCD ruined my perfectly sized bullets and resulted in leading (I had worked out leading problems years ago). I punched out the carbide sizing ring and tried it again. I got uneven funny shaped crimps. My FCD now resides in a landfill somewhere in So. Oregon.

If I had a problem with chambering a round, I would find out what the problem was, not just resize the cartridge in the final step. I have reloaded 45 ACP for 17 years or so and 9mm for mebbe 12 years and have never had a need to use a "bandaid fix" on any of my ammo. If I had chambering problems, I'll find out why and fix it. If one wants to use an FCD, I got no problem with that, but I really don't like new reloaders being told "just get an FCD and you'll be OK", rather than learning how to troubleshoot their handloads and correct any problems...

Now the Lee FCD for bottlenecked cases is another animal altogether, I have 2 and use them...

 

[woodperson]

I use the Lee FCD on .357 and .41 mag with no apparent (at least to me) problems, at least on jacketed bullets. Have not tried lead bullets with it. You can adjust for how much roll crimp and more and less taper crimp. I have some polymer coated bullets on order and will try it with them when it comes. I also use the Lee FCD on the 2 rifle calibers I am reloading now.
I have had to fool with most of my Lee dies a little bit when setting them up. Cleaning, maybe polishing, adjusting. I am sure that the "better" brands of dies are made better. So just order the one that you like. I started my revolver reloading with the Lee FCD and have not seen a reason not to like it yet. Maybe I just am missing it.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I also use the Lee 'factory crimp' dies on almost all my reloads. It separates the crimping from the bullet seating operation which sometimes can be a problem and they are easy to adjust for more or less crimp.

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

I use the FCDs on 4 revolver, 1 auto pistol and 5 rifle cartridges. All have performed as advertised, and I prefer to seat and crimp in two steps. Among other things, the FCD allows me to do that without constantly dinking around with the combo seating/crimp die to achieve the same result. The post-sizing carbide ring on the handgun calibers is a bonus, though I haven't seen that it has to work too hard with my reloads.

I've crushed handgun cases doing the seat/crimp operation simultaneously. There are several ways this can happen. One is uneven case lengths. Lee advertises the FCD is reasonably tolerant of length variations. Some folks never trim their handgun brass--I do, so I haven't really put this quality to the test. I do know I've never yet crushed a case with the FCD, even set "way down" to see if Lee's claim you "can't do it" holds water. It seems to.

Cleaning and a bit of fluff and buff prior to use was mentioned. Just as a matter of course, I take a new set of dies out of the box and head outside with a can of brake cleaner. After disassembly, everything gets cleaned, checked for burrs and deburred as required (I've done no more deburring on Lee's dies than others.) Then things get lubed lightly, and reassembled. Back in the house, the dies get adjusted and generally don't require additional service for quite a while. I've found this drill to be beneficial regardless of die brand.

Best advice I can give about the FCD is "Try it, and if you like it, great. If not, you're not out much money and you can always sell it." I understand Lee's sold a gazillion of these dies, with few complaints, so maybe they're on to something!

Rick C

 

[Johnnu2]

Thanks for all the great comments; I really appreciate the info. John

 

[mikld]

Separating the seating from crimping is not die dependant. I can use any seater die and any crimp die (but I choose the Redding profile Crimp for my revolver loads). I wonder how folks made reloads that would chamber before Lee introduced their FCD for handguns... :?: :shock:

 

[NikA]

I thought that's why all those Wilson-type case gauges existed: to check that all your loads will chamber before it matters. They've been around forever, and Lyman just released a couple new designs with multiple cartridge sizes on one block.

I use the Lee FCDs for every pistol cartridge I load. I figure they are as cheaply available as any other crimp die, new or used, and give me the added bonus of checking my cartridge dimension meet SAAMI spec. If I don't want that but still want the crimp die body, I'd remove the crimp sleeve and put it in the next size up.

 

[Ka6otm]

I also use the Lee 'factory crimp' dies on almost all my reloads. It separates the crimping from the bullet seating operation which sometimes can be a problem and they are easy to adjust for more or less crimp.

So do I, all except for precision rifle reloads. The Lee die also eliminates the problem of getting different amounts of crimp on cartridges if your cases vary in length.

 

[loaded round]

Say what you want, but I use all Dillon dies in my 550"s and have yet found a need for a Lee FCD. I started reloading over 45 years ago and load for 19 different calibers and gauges.

 

[Chuck 100 yd]

Just goes to show you you cant please everyone. I too crimp as a added step. The lee
FCD's work great unless you are shooting bullets greatly oversize for caliber such as
.456" bullets in a .45 Colt SAA. And they are inexpensive...and....you don't have to keep adjusting your seater plug to crimp as an extra step with the seater die.
I own at least a dozen FCD's , both rifle and pistol.

 

[Dan in MI]

I am firmly in the camp of separate seating and crimping, but I do not use a LFCD. Most of my seating dies are Redding. I use chamber checkers for all my semi auto rounds.


This thread has shown me just one more reason to not use one. Sometimes you want oversize bullets. Shoot Colt SAA's any amount and you will know what I mean there.

 

[Rick Courtright]

I thought that's why all those Wilson-type case gauges existed: to check that all your loads will chamber before it matters.

Hi,

Ok, let's say I'm gonna toss my FCD and buy a Wilson (type) gauge. I use it, and find my rounds are oversized. What do I do now?

This is one place the FCD makes some sense to me...

Rick C

 

[loaded round]

Define ''oversized''.



quote="Rick Courtright"]

I thought that's why all those Wilson-type case gauges existed: to check that all your loads will chamber before it matters.

Hi,

Ok, let's say I'm gonna toss my FCD and buy a Wilson (type) gauge. I use it, and find my rounds are oversized. What do I do now?

This is one place the FCD makes some sense to me...

Rick C[/quote]

 

[gwpercle]

Lee Factory Crimp dies are great for people who don't know how , or can't figure out how , to properly adjust their crimping dies. Years ago , before FCD , you had to learn how to adjust dies to get the desired crimp , be it taper or roll . Die adjustment is not rocket science but it takes some experience to learn. Maybe the instructions that came with dies and contained in loading manuals were better written and illustrated back then . I figured it out and I'm not very technical .
I've been loading for close to 50 years now and never needed a FCD or Wilson case gauge to do it with.
Gary

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Lee Factory Crimp dies are great for people who don't know how , or can't figure out how , to properly adjust their crimping dies.

Not true. I know how to adjust a seating and crimping die but I prefer a separate crimping die and if I am going to have a separate crimping die the Lee FCD works well and for not much investment. It's just logical.

 

[Mr. Don]

Lee Factory Crimp dies are great for people who don't know how , or can't figure out how , to properly adjust their crimping dies. Years ago , before FCD , you had to learn how to adjust dies to get the desired crimp , be it taper or roll . Die adjustment is not rocket science but it takes some experience to learn. Maybe the instructions that came with dies and contained in loading manuals were better written and illustrated back then . I figured it out and I'm not very technical .
I've been loading for close to 50 years now and never needed a FCD or Wilson case gauge to do it with.
Gary

This.
When I first started loading I needed the Lee FD, but as time went by and I learned to use and adjust my dies properly I found myself needing the FCD less and less. My .38/.357 FCD never comes out of the box anymore. My 9mm gets used occasionally to remove a bulge from a case but never to crimp. Loading on a single stage and one less lever pull per round is a good thing.

 

[Chuck 100 yd]

Lee Factory Crimp dies are great for people who don't know how , or can't figure out how , to properly adjust their crimping dies.

Not true. I know how to adjust a seating and crimping die but I prefer a separate crimping die and if I am going to have a separate crimping die the Lee FCD works well and for not much investment. It's just logical.

+1

 

[Rick Courtright]

I've been loading for close to 50 years now and never needed a FCD or Wilson case gauge to do it with.

Hi,

I've been loading just a hair over 50 years, and it's true, I've never "needed" those items either.

But just to toss in a bit of perspective, I've also had teeth for close to 65 years and never "needed" a toothbrush to keep them clean. It sure makes the job easier though, so the extra expense of keeping one or two of them around has been worth it to me. Maybe not so much to others...

Point being, at the risk of tedious repetition, one of the great things about reloading is there are often many different ways to do the same job, with satisfactory results from each. It's not a "right" way or "wrong" way proposition: you pays your money and you takes your choice. Simple as that.

Rick C

 

[Ka6otm]

Lee Factory Crimp dies are great for people who don't know how , or can't figure out how , to properly adjust their crimping dies.

Not true. I know how to adjust a seating and crimping die but I prefer a separate crimping die and if I am going to have a separate crimping die the Lee FCD works well and for not much investment. It's just logical.

+1

I've been reloading for 61 years and know very well how to adjust crimp dies and I've also loaded long enough to know that there's a better solution.

It's the FCD

 

[loaded round]

After reading all these posts both pro and con, I know realize why there is both chocolate and vanilla ice cream.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I (now) realize why there is both chocolate and vanilla ice cream.

Tina or Dawn?

Think Gilligan's Island.

 

[mikld]

Ok, let's say I'm gonna toss my FCD and buy a Wilson (type) gauge. I use it, and find my rounds are oversized. What do I do now?

This is one place the FCD makes some sense to me...

Rick C

This is where you go back and find what die is misadjusted or recheck your components. Measure your bullets. Measure the case after each operation. Simple. You could be using oversize bullets (fat bullets + thick case walls = fat cartridges). You could be bulging the case during the crimping. You could be buckling the case during flaring (I had a Lee die that had a "step" at the end of the flare taper and too much force would buckle the case). Find out when the "oversize" happens makes it easy to fix...

What did bizillions of reloaders do when reloading 45 ACP rounds prior to Lee's introduction of their handgun FCD? Perhaps they just correctly adjusted their dies and used the barrels of their guns as a "gauge"...

Hmmm. Just noticed your 3,000+ post count and that makes me think this post of yours was "tongue in cheek", not serious... :mrgreen:

 

[Rick Courtright]

What did bizillions of reloaders do when reloading 45 ACP rounds prior to Lee's introduction of their handgun FCD? Perhaps they just correctly adjusted their dies and used the barrels of their guns as a "gauge"...

Hmmm. Just noticed your 3,000+ post count and that makes me think this post of yours was "tongue in cheek", not serious... :mrgreen:

Hi,

Well, I think they hollered and whined and p'd & m'd enough that a couple of companies, Redding and Lee, figured out a "better" way.

You're correct in that fixing the problem is easy IF you do the diagnostic work correctly. However, diagnostic skills vary tremendously among those trying to use them, especially as one's just starting to gain the experience which makes them second nature. Plus, there are times when everything seems ok, yet there's still a small problem which the FCD can fix with a single pull of the handle. I think that's the kind of problem some of the engineers I knew growing up might have meant when they laughingly said, "But it worked on paper."

(Only partially tongue in cheek!)

Rick C

 

[Cheesewhiz]

I think some take everything advertised about the FCD literally and assume guys use it for all those reasons. I don't, I bought my first to try it and see if I could find benefit from it.

...and I did, I do a good job of loading 9mm and I load for shooting practice, accuracy and just because I like to play around with different powders and projectiles.

One thing I found is with matched headstamped brass and certain bullets I could hold the target OAL easily inside a + or - of .001" but with either mixed brass, brass that had been shot a lot and different types and makes of bullets, the out tolerance on length grew to + or - .002" or slightly more. I feel that a length variance such as this will have an adverse effect on accuracy in a semi-auto pistol.
So, I decided to try and back off my crimp slightly in my seating die and finished the crimp with the FCD, this worked very well for me and I continue to load all my 9mm and 45 ACP in this manner, even with the combinations that always held their lengths in the reloading process.

My brass is sized just fine and dandy in my resizing die so I don't need any sizing being done in my crimp die. I also don't beat up or distort my brass during the reloading process so I don't need to bump out any misshape that might occur if I didn't know how to set my dies or my machine.

The Lee FCD works for me and that's why I use it.

Oh, and guys that brag about not needing a Wilson gauge are kind of like a guy bragging that he doesn't need spellcheck, maybe he's a great speller or maybe he's so bad that spellcheck couldn't find a clue on what that guy was trying to spell, so the guy shuts off spellcheck just from the sheer annoyance.

 

[mikld]

As I stated, I have no qualms if someone chooses to us an FCD. What bothers (?) me is that new reloaders are told the FCD is the greatest thing to come along since smokeless powder and forget troubleshooting or learn good reloading practices, just cover up the problem with the "Wonder Die".

Well, I think they hollered and whined and p'd & m'd enough that a couple of companies, Redding and Lee, figured out a "better" way.

Since reloaders have been producing good shootable ammo for mebbe 75 years prior to the FCD, I think they just learned how to reload right... :roll:

No a "Lee Hater" as I have a bunch of Lee equipment (Lee got me started reloading in 1969). Even the best companies can make a faux pas on occasion...

 

[Jimbo357mag]

As I stated, I have no qualms if someone chooses to us an FCD. What bothers (?) me is that new reloaders are told the FCD is the greatest thing to come along since smokeless powder and forget troubleshooting or learn good reloading practices, just cover up the problem with the "Wonder Die".

The reloading companies are always coming up with new and better ways of doing stuff. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the old ways, just that there are newer and better ways. Look at any of the companies and you will find new presses, new primers, new powder measures, new scales and yes new dies. Just look at those automatic powder dispensers.

 

[mikld]

As I stated, I have no qualms if someone chooses to us an FCD. What bothers (?) me is that new reloaders are told the FCD is the greatest thing to come along since smokeless powder and forget troubleshooting or learn good reloading practices, just cover up the problem with the "Wonder Die".

The reloading companies are always coming up with new and better ways of doing stuff. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the old ways, just that there are newer and better ways. Look at any of the companies and you will find new presses, new primers, new powder measures, new scales and yes new dies. Just look at those automatic powder dispensers.

Yep, and Lee leads the pack for new and improved equipment. We were discussing Lee's OOPS! with the FCD for handgun cartridges...

 

[Rick Courtright]

We were discussing Lee's OOPS! with the FCD for handgun cartridges...

Hi,

I'm easily distracted, so maybe something shiny caught my eye when I should have been paying attention. WHAT "oops" are we talking about? Did Redding make one, too?

Rick C