Powder question.

[crow#2]

I will only go by manuals or at least cross referencing between manuals but have a ? I read where 13 gr of imr4198 with 100 gr jsp was 1600 fps in 32/20
OK then i read 3.5 gr of unique was close to the same fps. I know looks does not count but 13 gr 4198 fills the 32/20up to where the bullet will slightly compress the load. Im skeptical of a case that full. If its safe ok but i want to know first not after.

 

[crow#2]

I know when the air space is remove with powder or other filler the burn rate and pressures change. Im just a skeptic who does not want to ruin a gun or me.

 

[contender]

It's actually better to have a case that is full to the base of the bullet. I was just recently re-reading some info on how light charges can cause a much higher pressure spike,, due to powder position & the way it ignites.

Many, many years ago,, I spent a lot of time studying what Rick Jamison would write in his "Reloading" column for Shooting times. One thing that always stood out was how the most uniform & consistent loads were from using a powder that would allow a safe charge,, to where it just touched the base or was slightly compressed.

A very light charge,, where there is a bit of "air space" inside the case,, when loaded in the gun,, the powder lays in the bottom of the case. The primer flashes across the powder. That causes erratic ignition and can create a larger pressure spike. In the case of what you are showing above,, I'd go with the 4198 powder instead of the Unique.

And I use a lot of Unique in a lot of handgun loads. But in general,, it is used in an amount to where the primer can ignite the powder while the powder is still against the base of the case internally.

 

[Mobuck]

^^^ AGREE^^^
There's also the possibility of a 'double charge' with a tiny amount of powder in the case. I'd much rather have a slight to moderate amount of compression.

 

[beentheredone]

"Detonation" caused by small charges of fast powder has never been proven, or even duplicated under lab conditions. It is my firm belief that such gun-destroying events actually result from inadvertent double charges of powder. BUT, follow the manuals carefully and neither small charges of fast powder nor full cases of slower powders will cause you any difficulty.

 

[contender]

Here's a copy of the article I was just re-reading. It discusses the powder position issue. (The author used to be the editor of "Precision Shooting" magazine.)


web.archive.org/web/20150106061102/http://www.levergun.com/articles/thoughts.htm


When you get to the part about the discussion with Ken Ohler,, remember Ken developed the best chronographs of that era & are still considered to be one of the best.

 

[jgt]

The reason detonation has never been duplicated in a lab is not proof it does not exist.
The people that experienced it shot in competition. They shot many, many of these loads that did not detonate. Then one day the right combination of powder position and primer flash came together and their gun was destroyed. Fellow shooters thought it could not happen to them because they made sure "THEY" didn't double charge (which they were sure happened to the guy with the blown up gun). Only it did happen to enough of them eventually until they had to stop using that load and find another powder and load that was safe.
Some of us are old enough to have been there. We even shot 44 magnums before we found out it was the most powerful gun in the world and would blow your head clean off. I will say this one more time. Ignore this information if you wish, but to claim it does not exist is like Joe Biden claiming there is no proof the 2020 election was bogus and was the most secure election in history.

 

[Professor]

In my opinion the 32-20 case will not hold enough powder to blow up the modern guns. A heavy dose of H110 and heavy lead bullet are incredibly fun.

Now, try light loads of fast powder in larger cases, like 45-70 you have to be careful.

 

[Cholo]

It's funny I don't hear about this detonation problem anymore, like unintended acceleration.

 

[crow#2]

Hey cholo thats what happened to me when i took out that telephone pole. Unintended acceleration. Lol

 

[crow#2]

Been wanting another truck. The Honda pilot was a goid vehicle but i missed my f150. Received $9700 from insurance full coverage paid for Pilot. Went and got a nice F150. Looks sharp.
I told the wife i knew i would get another truck somehow. Lol

 

[PRichardson87]

Ahh it's all starting to make sense lol. What year? Post a pic if you can.

 

[Bob Wright]

In general, the powder that is slowest burning (from the charts) is my choice for any given load as it developes the lower pressures. Not a 100% guide, as loads need to be proved by the shooting of them.

Bob Wright

 

[Hvymax]

Lightly compressed loads are the most accurate in my experience.

 

[crow#2]

heres a dumb question.
Burn rate charts? Do they have a numercal rating or is it just fastest on top of list progressing down the list to the slowest.

 

[Hvymax]

heres a dumb question.
Burn rate charts? Do they have a numercal rating or is it just fastest on top of list progressing down the list to the slowest.

Depends on the list.

 

[crow#2]

Ahh it's all starting to make sense lol. What year? Post a pic if you can.

Here ya go. 2011I cant afford new.The reflection in the side of truck is cokes stacked up along garage wall.Its dirty righ now but when its clean it really looks nice.

 

[308 Scout]

I will only go by manuals or at least cross referencing between manuals but have a ? I read where 13 gr of imr4198 with 100 gr jsp was 1600 fps in 32/20
OK then i read 3.5 gr of unique was close to the same fps. I know looks does not count but 13 gr 4198 fills the 32/20up to where the bullet will slightly compress the load. Im skeptical of a case that full. If its safe ok but i want to know first not after.

You might consider a subscription to www.loaddata.com. There is a mind-boggling amount of published load data there a fella can sort and print it most any way he wishes.
Regarding your question, I searched Load Data for 32-20 data and 13.0 gr. of IMR-4198 with a 100 gr. bullet. Two loads fired from a rifle both showed velocities in the vicinity of 1450 fps. It took about 5.0 gr. of Unique to get that same velocity from a 100 gr. bullet from a rifle.

I've never loaded the 32-20 in a rifle but owned a Uberti SA in 32-20 and did quite a bit of load development for it. It was a times frustrating. The extreme velocity spreads (e.s.'s), especially with powders such as Blue Dot and 2400 were sometimes 200 fps or a bit more. It was crazy. Bryan Pearce did a couple of articles in Handloader magazine over the 32-20 and some of his loads also showed e.s.'s in the 150-200 fps range and he could find no rhyme or reason. I finally settled on IMR-Target (pretty much a twin to Alliant Bullseye) and Unique and things settled down nicely.
As slow as IMR-4198 burns, relatively speaking, I don't think you're going to be in any danger, and in fact the Speer manual lists 15.0 gr. as a maximum in strong lever action rifles.

 

[crow#2]

You might consider a subscription to www.loaddata.com. There is a mind-boggling amount of published load data there a fella can sort and print it most any way he wishes.
Regarding your question, I searched Load Data for 32-20 data and 13.0 gr. of IMR-4198 with a 100 gr. bullet. Two loads fired from a rifle both showed velocities in the vicinity of 1450 fps. It took about 5.0 gr. of Unique to get that same velocity from a 100 gr. bullet from a rifle.

I've never loaded the 32-20 in a rifle but owned a Uberti SA in 32-20 and did quite a bit of load development for it. It was a times frustrating. The extreme velocity spreads (e.s.'s), especially with powders such as Blue Dot and 2400 were sometimes 200 fps or a bit more. It was crazy. Bryan Pearce did a couple of articles in Handloader magazine over the 32-20 and some of his loads also showed e.s.'s in the 150-200 fps range and he could find no rhyme or reason. I finally settled on IMR-Target (pretty much a twin to Alliant Bullseye) and Unique and things settled down nicely.
As slow as IMR-4198 burns, relatively speaking, I don't think you're going to be in any danger, and in fact the Speer manual lists 15.0 gr. as a maximum in strong lever action rifles.

 

[crow#2]

Thankyou 308 scout
I do appreciate that info and it helps alot.

 

[DBnoise]

It's actually better to have a case that is full to the base of the bullet. I was just recently re-reading some info on how light charges can cause a much higher pressure spike,, due to powder position & the way it ignites.

Many, many years ago,, I spent a lot of time studying what Rick Jamison would write in his "Reloading" column for Shooting times. One thing that always stood out was how the most uniform & consistent loads were from using a powder that would allow a safe charge,, to where it just touched the base or was slightly compressed.

A very light charge,, where there is a bit of "air space" inside the case,, when loaded in the gun,, the powder lays in the bottom of the case. The primer flashes across the powder. That causes erratic ignition and can create a larger pressure spike. In the case of what you are showing above,, I'd go with the 4198 powder instead of the Unique.

And I use a lot of Unique in a lot of handgun loads. But in general,, it is used in an amount to where the primer can ignite the powder while the powder is still against the base of the case internally.

I followed alot of Rick's articles. Pretty scientific in my estimation. Did some of the same stuff. A chronograph is the tell all on loads for me. I try to use a powder that gives the best accuracy, highest velocity and near 100% load density.

 

[308 Scout]

I followed alot of Rick's articles. Pretty scientific in my estimation. Did some of the same stuff. A chronograph is the tell all on loads for me. I try to use a powder that gives the best accuracy, highest velocity and near 100% load density.

If I remember correctly, most if not all of Rick Jamison's load development was for rifle cartridges. In those cases and with rifle powders, a full case is very much beneficial. However with straight-wall handgun cartridges there is nothing at all wrong with light charges. I've personally never seen the point of filling a case with a slow burning powder to achieve X velocity when half as much of a faster burning powder will provide the same velocity. I load for extensively for .357, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum and .45 Colt. I typically stick with powders that burn between Bullseye and Unique and lately have burned quite a lot of Titegroup in my .41 Magnums running 210-220 gr. bullets right at 1100 fps. With any of these type powders in the aforementioned cartridges, extreme spreads stay around 30-45 fps and accuracy is really good all the way out to 300 yds.

 

[Pál_K]

In general, the powder that is slowest burning (from the charts) is my choice for any given load as it developes the lower pressures. Not a 100% guide, as loads need to be proved by the shooting of them.

Bob Wright

One exception would be if the slower powder is too slow for the barrel length.

But, I agree, the slowest of the powders listed in the manual's reloading data will offer a lower pressure and a high loading density (filling the case the most).

I have a 10" .30-30 Contender and first chose W748. Way too slow. Powder burning out the barrel caused turbulence and poor accuracy. But a beautiful muzzle flash, blast, and ground shock wave when shooting Silhouette. The faster IMR-4198 was the sweet spot.

heres a dumb question.
Burn rate charts? Do they have a numercal rating or is it just fastest on top of list progressing down the list to the slowest.

Just a relative rate. This is the chart I use, but there are many others.

 

[Pál_K]

If I remember correctly, most if not all of Rick Jamison's load development was for rifle cartridges. In those cases and with rifle powders, a full case is very much beneficial. However with straight-wall handgun cartridges there is nothing at all wrong with light charges. ...

A friend and I were talking about this because my favorite .38 Special load with W231 is almost like dust in the bottom of the case - and it's not even the lightest load listed! With one pound of powder, I can load well over 1500 rounds.

My friend mentioned that some of the more popular other caliber loadings use even faster powders like Green Dot, Bullseye, and Red Dot, where there may be less than two grains in the case.

 

[DBnoise]

I

If I remember correctly, most if not all of Rick Jamison's load development was for rifle cartridges. In those cases and with rifle powders, a full case is very much beneficial. However with straight-wall handgun cartridges there is nothing at all wrong with light charges. I've personally never seen the point of filling a case with a slow burning powder to achieve X velocity when half as much of a faster burning powder will provide the same velocity. I load for extensively for .357, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum and .45 Colt. I typically stick with powders that burn between Bullseye and Unique and lately have burned quite a lot of Titegroup in my .41 Magnums running 210-220 gr. bullets right at 1100 fps. With any of these type powders in the aforementioned cartridges, extreme spreads stay around 30-45 fps and accuracy is really good all the way out to 300 yds.

I dont push my hand guns but my rifles are a different story.. Am going to share with you what I did with a straight wall 350 Legend. First thing I did was buy new longest barrel rifle, 23 1/4 inch. Shot a few factory loads to break it in. Then started load development on Starline brass. My goal was to have an effective 275 yard rifle. Tried a couple of bullets and settle on a 165gr flextip. I like the 140s in my 357 GP100. I tried H110, W296, IMR4227, XMR5744, AA1680, and Lil'Gun. Took 150 rds to get the the top 2 highest velocity that wasn't too shaby on accuracy, w296 and Lil'Gun. Then I started accuracizing. Put a flash suppressor on, bedded the action and weight the butt, lead shot and epoxy, and full length bedded the barrel. Floated it from muzzle back until best group with the load below. I use moly coated bullets. The brass, all prep'd and treated like a bottle neck with small base 357 dies, made an adapter to my press and only sizing the neck to base of bullet. Trimmed fired cases to .005 shorter than my chamber. Final loads, 165gr Flextip moly coated, Rem 7 1/2, 29.0gr Lil'Gun, .040 off the lands at 2.335 oal, .003 neck tension, 2625fps. Groups 5 rounds at 1 inch at 200 yards.. Fits a modified magazine in my bolt.
I have room to go on powder as I went up to 30 grains but best group was at 29.0. Room to go on oal too that I could to the lands and still function in the magazine. It's a Franchi Momentum. That barrel was very very good through a bore scope. So good so bought another for my daughter. That one the barrel was pretty shitty. Sent it back, they didn't even look in the barrel, shot a 3 rounds just barely inside an inch and sent back. I should be getting it back in a week or so from a gunsmith with a 26 to 27 inch barrel. My goal is to hit close to 2800fps velocities and have solid 300 to 325 yard rifle with 1000 ft lbs left on that 165 gr bullet. It's for Buckeye straight wall country this deer season.
Next project is total custom cartridge with a .358 bullet, straight wall, with enough length to give a 180 gr bullet 2750+ fps velocity. Waiting to win the lottery on that one!! Lol