STOPPING POWER

[writwing]

Would appreciate comments on Handloads.com data for best one shot stops>

38 +P: 80%

9MM +P: 88%

44 SPL: 76%

 

[pisgah]

Such data is, at best, anecdotal; anecdote is not science. Each and every shot fired in self defense is an experiment all to itself, and no result from any one shot -- or even from many shots -- can be expected to repeat itself on the next shot. Perhaps the greatest weakness of such data is the fact that the targets are human beings; what might stop me with one shot might not even faze the next guy. In humans, too much of the reaction is psychological to make any definitive judgement over which load/caliber is "best".

 

[Stoots]

Such data is, at best, anecdotal; anecdote is not science. Each and every shot fired in self defense is an experiment all to itself, and no result from any one shot -- or even from many shots -- can be expected to repeat itself on the next shot. Perhaps the greatest weakness of such data is the fact that the targets are human beings; what might stop me with one shot might not even faze the next guy. In humans, too much of the reaction is psychological to make any definitive judgement over which load/caliber is "best".

Great post!

 

[Terry T]

I thnk Evan Marshall had done the definitive work on the subject.

http://www.stoppingpower.net/

It's really hard to get human subjects for these expirments but Evan found out that, on the street, folks are getting shot every day. :shock:
I think his books show the pluses and minuses of the subject.

Of course, only hits count, so a round that you can hit with well is better than one you can't.
Terry T

 

[M'BOGO]

This subject is a slippery slope. Where is the information collected from, what is the size if the "test groups", and what are the parameters?

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Is there a question you have in mind? My question would be are they one shot stops or one shot kills? To compare those I would say they seem about right. I know the 357 magnum % would be much higher. 8) 8)

...Jimbo

 

[Terry T]

Evan Marshall put one shot STOPS for a 357 mag 125gr. JHP in the 95% range.

He has defined what a "stop" is for his research. He also throws out limb shots and (I think) head shots. (It's been a while since I read his book). His samples are very large (hundreds) for some rounds.

He also has examples of high performing rounds failing to produce the one shot stop. In other words, there is no handgun round that is 100% effective at a one shot stop. :shock: "Do you feel lucky today?"
Terry T

 

[coyote]

while not an exact science, when tens of thousands of shooting are studied, patterns do appear. the studies by marshall/sanow probably shouldn't be looked at as the definitive final defining "answer" but instead as a very useful guide.

here's how i interpret their data:

====================

CARTRIDGE EFFECTIVENESS
(One Shot Stops)

HANDGUNS

20 - 30 %
22LR
25ACP

30 - 50 %
22LR (Stinger only)
22 Mag

50 - 70 %
32 ACP
380 ACP
38 Special
9 mm (non-hollow point)
44 Special (non-hollow point)
44 Mag (non-hollow point)
45 ACP (non-hollow point)
45 Colt (non-hollow point)

70 - 90 %
38 Special (in 4-6" barrels, loaded with +P hollow points)
9 mm (hollow point)
357 Mag (hollow point)
40 S&W (hollow point)
41 Mag (hollow point)
44 Special (hollow point)
44 Mag (hollow point)
45 ACP (hollow point)
45 Colt (hollow point)

over 90 %
9 mm (115 gr JHP +P+ @ 1300+ fps)
357 Mag (110 gr JHP @ 1450 fps and 125 gr JHP @ 1300 fps)
40 S&W (135-165 gr JHP @ 1150+ fps)
45 ACP (185 gr JHP +P @ 1150+ fps and 230 gr JHP in Fed HS & Rem GS)


RIFLES

93 - 99 %
223 Winchester (FMJ and JHP)

98 - 99 %
308 Winchester (168 gr JHP-BT Sierra Match)


SHOTGUNS

80 - 85 %
12 GA. #4 Buckshot

85 - 95 %
12 GA. OO Buckshot

95 - 98 %
12 GA Slug

 

[LuckenbachTexas]

Just be glad most violent attackers aren't women because it is a documented fact it takes more to stop them.

Additionally, how is one stop defined? If the statistics where to reflect thwart of attack versus total incapacitation, I believe all of them would reflect 90 percent or higher.

 

[RedFalconBill]

Such data is, at best, anecdotal; anecdote is not science. Each and every shot fired in self defense is an experiment all to itself, and no result from any one shot -- or even from many shots -- can be expected to repeat itself on the next shot. Perhaps the greatest weakness of such data is the fact that the targets are human beings; what might stop me with one shot might not even faze the next guy. In humans, too much of the reaction is psychological to make any definitive judgement over which load/caliber is "best".

Even better, the plural of anecdote is NOT data.

 

[coyote]

....Additionally, how is one stop defined? If the statistics where to reflect thwart of attack versus total incapacitation, I believe all of them would reflect 90 percent or higher.

...[Marshall's] data is based on "one shot stops". This is defined as: 1. a single hit to anywhere on the body not counting the head, neck or extremity shot: 2. when a subject stops shooting or striking blows if that was what he was doing and 3. runs no more than 10 feet before collapsing. In other words, Marshall's studies examine what happens in the first few seconds after a shooting...
from: http://www.abaris.net/info/ballistics/handgun-stopping-power.htm

Handloads.com's charts of sanow/marshall OSS data: http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=0

additional OSS info, both pro and con: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power

 

[Don Lovel]

as a young Marine friend of mine would say

50 BMG = 100% one shot stop

 

[kelbro]

as a young Marine friend of mine would say

50 BMG = 100% one shot stop

Without a doubt! Kinda hard to carry concealed though.

 

[Bucks Owin]

Interesting stuff to ponder, but IMO the "best" defense round is the one you actually have with you when needed! :shock: :wink:

 

[LuckenbachTexas]

Does the marshall data reflect law enforcement or civilian attacks? A criminal is much less likely to continue an attack against a civil target where LEO reresents the end of the line.

I agree with bucks up there and why I carry a six shot 32 mag airweight with laser grips and a Sig Sauer 40 with five mags as backup close by.

 

[Stoots]

A long but great read:

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm

:wink:

 

[Terry T]

"LuckenbachTexas",
I do not believe Marshall seprates out LE from others. What he DOES require is complete, verifiable documentation.
I'd suggest you read his work. My libarary has copies and I'd guess others would too.
Terry T

 

[pisgah]

I would never say that data from people like Sanow and Marshall is worthless. Intuitively, one would suppose that something like a .357 is going to give better results than, say, a .25 ACP, and their analyses pretty well bear this out. This, of course, poses the question of whether their results are biased to fit the answer everyone "knows" is right, but that is another discussion.

But as I have already stated, the answer to the "one-shot stop" question goes much further. The psychological factor is enormous. There is at least one documented case of a man taking one hit in the elbow from a .25 and falling stone dead. What killed him? The bullet, or the shock of, "Oh, my God, I'm shot?"

And whereas the amount of physical damage a round is potentially capable of creating is certainly worth considering, even that is not everything. I personally know of a jealous husband who fired a single round from his Baby Browning through the windshield of his wife's boyfriend's pickup truck; the bullet struck him in the chest and he expired immediately. (The husband, BTW, served 12 years in prison, became a Baptist preacher while there, and recently retired as the much-beloved pastor of a local church after 32 years' service.)

So if the question is, "What's the best?", the answer to me is, "Whatever I have with me, am capable of using effectively, and READY to use."

 

[Anonymous]

The continual debate will never end. I think Americans are greedy for power. We want 1000 horsepower cars, and 1000 caliber guns.

My thought is "stopping" power, not "blow the BG into the next county" power. Most BGs will likely lose interest in whatever bad they're doing, at the simple sight of any gun aimed at them. A good percentage of those that don't, will lose interest after being shot in a major area by one round of any caliber.

BGs that don't give up then are likely wound up by abnormal anger, mental illness, or street drugs. Then you have a high percentage against whatever caliber you have being effective, unless you can absolutely make a one-shot kill. With real luck you may get off a second round.

I remember a case where a PCP loaded BG took three .45ACP rounds to the chest, two went through the heart. He still made it thirty odd feet and stabbed the LEO with a Rambo-style knife before he collapsed. Both dead at the scene.

 

[coyote]

Does the marshall data reflect law enforcement or civilian attacks? A criminal is much less likely to continue an attack against a civil target where LEO reresents the end of the line...

i took the following quote from the stopping power wiki link sighted above:

"...Marshall's database of "one-shot-stops" does include shootings from law enforcement agencies, private citizens, and criminals alike...."