STOPPING POWER

[TRanger]

Well, I 'figure' my 'equalizer' .45 Colt 255g bullet travelling at 900fps will do the job. No stats, no anecdotes, no bull, no hydrospastic shuck talk, etc...... just a long history since 1873 of getting the job done (if you hit what you aim at that is). Hope I never have to put it to the test... but there she be.... Oh, easier on the o' ears too. Same with .44Spec.

Well, you'd be dead wrong. I highly recommend getting a copy of "Sixguns" by Elmer Keith and reading what he had to say about .45 Colt "stopping power." Next to worthless with pointy lead bullets that zipped right through. Great penetrators. Lousy stoppers. This was discovered in the Phillipines as well despite all the BS that has been handed down through the years.

quote]

Go back and reread it. Elmer was talking about a specific load offered by Remington back then. He also stated if he had to rely on factory ammunition, the .45 Colt would be his choice. John Taffin has written he found one of Mr. Keith's .45s still loaded with factory ammunition.

 

[tek4260]

John Taffin has written he found one of Mr. Keith's .45s still loaded with factory ammunition.

I have factory loads here that I bought just to get the brass... Just haven't got around to shooting them yet. I imagine Keith was doing the same

 

[jpickar]

Another bear thread with a new title :lol: :lol: :lol:


John

 

[Stoots]

Bullet design coupled with the correct velocity window is EVERYTHING and cal. has nothing to do with handgun stopping power. That is why the .357 SIG has gained a reputation as a virtual "death ray." It has picked up where the 9mm 115 gr. +p+ started in the 80's when LE got serious about stopping people. Modern light & fast HP's stop people.

Remember, this ain't like hunting where you can smoke a Marlboro while the prey bleeds out in the brush. The point is to STOP the bad guy and not necessarily kill him/her. Unfortunately many times it comes to that however.

However, the the same science that has progressed light HP's has also benefitted large cal. handguns as well. Right now the best SD ammo you can buy is anything loaded with the Barnes solid copper HP's as loaded by Corbon & Double Tap. They are incredible.

Good post. I'd add that the Speer Gold Dots are excellent as well.

:wink:

 

[Donaldjr1969]

Another bear thread with a new title :lol: :lol: :lol:


John

I thought the same thing myself, John!

 

[Bucks Owin]

Well, I 'figure' my 'equalizer' .45 Colt 255g bullet travelling at 900fps will do the job.

Well, you'd be dead wrong. I highly recommend getting a copy of "Sixguns" by Elmer Keith and reading what he had to say about .45 Colt "stopping power." Next to worthless with pointy lead bullets that zipped right through. Great penetrators. Lousy stoppers. This was discovered in the Phillipines as well despite all the BS that has been handed down through the years.

Huh. I always thought that the .45LC kinda "came to the rescue" in the phillipines Boge... :?
_______________________________________________________
(Speaking of .38LC's performance here):

The cartridge's relatively poor ballistics were highlighted during the Philippine-American War of 1899-1902, when reports from U.S. Army officers were received regarding the .38 bullet's inability to stop charges of frenzied Moro juramentados at extremely close ranges. A typical instance occurred in 1905 and was later recounted by Col. Louis A. LaGarde:

"Antonio Caspi, a prisoner on the island of Samar, P.I. attempted escape on Oct. 26, 1905. He was shot four times at close range in a hand-to-hand encounter by a .38 Colt's revolver loaded with U.S. Army regulation ammunition. He was finally stunned by a blow on the forehead from the butt end of a Springfield carbine."[2]

Col. LaGarde noted Caspi's wounds were fairly well-placed: three .38 bullets entered the chest, perforating the lungs. One passed through the body, one lodged near the back and the other lodged in subcutaneous tissue. The fourth round went though the right hand and exited through the forearm.[3]

As an emergency response to the round's unexpectedly dismal performance, the U.S. Army authorized officers to carry the M1873 .45 Colt Colt Single Action Army revolvers, chambered in .45 Long Colt, and issued from reserve stocks
______________________________________________________

For my part, I believe the .45LC, even with it's somewhat "pointy lead bullets" of old (shown .45LC and .45 Gvmt) has dropped more than it's fair share, and a more modern SWC with fatter meplat is simply icing on an an already mighty tasty cake! I gotta side with Rclark here. I know I would certainly feel adequately protected anywhere packing a .45 SAA even with a cylinderful of 1870's BP loads...
(And a .45 BH with a modern HP "+P" can run in ANY pack in regards to "stopping power")

FWIW...

(BTW, I know I'm in the minority but I've never felt the sun rose and set on Elmer Keith, and his writings in Sixguns gave the .45LC a black eye it didn't deserve IMO... :shock: )

 

[jpickar]

I do not have but three 45LC's in a Ruger BH, and two Colt New Services. The "pointy bullet" of the 45 LC in a Colt New Service did a number on the whitie doe my son shot with it several years ago. 8)

Meplat makes a difference. So does bullet diameter. :shock:

Elmer Keith and Jack O'Conner were both VERY opinionated writers. They both had lots of experiance. But both pushed thier personal likes over objectivity. :roll: :roll:

We all do it. I like the 280 Rem because it has never failed me or my son. I can argue better ballistics and all that but it comes down to personal preference. I can say the 280 Rem is better than the 270 Win, :roll: , but is it enough to make a difference on a deer? Hmmmmmm, Well, OK, probably not! BUT THE 280 IS BETTER. :lol: :lol:

John

 

[Bucks Owin]

I do not have but three 45LC's in a Ruger BH, and two Colt New Services. The "pointy bullet" of the 45 LC in a Colt New Service did a number on the whitie doe my son shot with it several years ago. 8)

Meplat makes a difference. So does bullet diameter. :shock:

Elmer Keith and Jack O'Conner were both VERY opinionated writers. They both had lots of experiance. But both pushed thier personal likes over objectivity. :roll: :roll:

We all do it. I like the 280 Rem because it has never failed me or my son. I can argue better ballistics and all that but it comes down to personal preference. I can say the 280 Rem is better than the 270 Win, :roll: , but is it enough to make a difference on a deer? Hmmmmmm, Well, OK, probably not! BUT THE 280 IS BETTER. :lol: :lol:

John

Uh oh.... :?
I was with ya until you picked the .280 over the .270! :x
(Like .007" makes much difference.. :wink: )

BTW, Jack was right too... 8) (And I daresay had more "fact" than "opinion" IMHO :wink: )

Ya suppose we could still share a campfire? :lol:

 

[Rclark]

Ya suppose we could still share a campfire?

I think we all could . What do ya think the conversion is going to turn too?.... I think, I believe, I know, mine is best, yours may work ... but ... . My '06 beats yours all hollow.... All in fun, and maybe some useful info comes out of it!

 

[jpickar]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Jack's or Elmer's "opinion" become "facts" when we want them too. :lol: :lol:

Come on over and we can sit around the campfire and talk about anything EXCEPT what is the best bear defense cart. :lol: :lol: :lol:

John :wink:

 

[Boge]

...Huh. I always thought that the .45LC kinda "came to the rescue" in the phillipines Boge... :?

Primary sources from the times show that the hopped up Moros were not as easily deterred as we have been led to believe. Usually by "big bullet" proponents. The British discovered this in Malaya with many failures using the .455 with 265 gr. bullets.

Remember, Elmer Keith NEVER once drew his gun in anger and fired at another human being. Elmer was a believer in large SWC bullets, i.e., his own design as it worked well on game. It still does. What people who have been in gunfights today know is that penetration is NOT all of the equation. People shoot back. Deer don't.

The Old West is replete with accounts of people being shot countless times with large bore guns and lingering for days only to die of septicemia. Cole Younger was shot ELEVEN times at Northfield, Minnesota and lived another FORTY YEARS!! He was shot at least 21 times in his life. I have read an account of a cavalry trooper who shot an Indian TWELVE TIMES with a 56-50 Spencer carbine before the Indian died!! That's 4,200 gr. of .50 cal. lead!! Unfortuantely, the Spencer used pointy bullets that if they hit no major bone merely zipped on through.

My point is that bullet design is absoultely essential. The HP's we have today such as the Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot, Win. T-Series Ranger & the DPX are light years ahead of stuff thirty years prior. Why handicap yourself?

 

[Bucks Owin]

Point taken Boge, but how many folks have also been dropped on the spot by a chest hit with .45 Colt, (or ACP) regardless of bullet style. I'm not arguing that a modern HP isn't a better projectile, just saying that I, like Rclark, would feel perfectly "protected" by a 255 gr @ 900 fps. Not necessarily a style like the old west bullets, eg 454190. (although that would certainly do) I'm aware that infection from gunshot wounds was a big killer in the old west, also that some men "take more killing" than others. Fire again!
We're really pretty much in agreement I think Boge, just that Rclark and I would feel pretty safe with the old thumb buster load, even today...
Now, your turn to get a stick of wood for the fire... :wink:

PS: I still maintain that the gun in your hand is "the best" when the poop hits the fan, and for the record my choice of a preferred sidearm for "social situations" would be my M19 Combat Magnum with full tilt 125 gr HP (jacketed) or 358156 HP (cast)....

 

[LuckenbachTexas]

This is a rhetorical question...

Didn't three recent survivors of a western re-enactment get shot with 45 Colt by frickin MORON Paul Doering who forgot to put blanks in his gun?

http://www.wnem.com/story/14976777/tourists-shot-at-western-shootout-reenactment

Yes, they did survive. They better be glad it wern't a 32 magnum with Buffalo Bore HP or they'd be deader than a Texas door stop.

I believe "stopping power" is subjective and the blessed statistics are useless at best.

You should come with me on a journey of all my "stopping power" dreams. I can tell you Benadryl helps suppress them as well as any prescribed medication, without the side effects

I have a poster on my wall where Elmer Keith says the Marlin 336 in 35 Remington is the best :wink:

 

[Stoots]

You should come with me on a journey of all my "stopping power" dreams. I can tell you Benadryl helps suppress them as well as any prescribed medication, without the side effects

:lol:


I hear ya! Try some Ambien!

I have severe insomnia. The VA gave me some Ambien. Whoa. I took out a gang of Bloods with a single shot of a .177 Crossman pellet pistol!

Anyway, sorry for the derail!

:wink:

 

[LuckenbachTexas]

"Ambien. Whoa."

I've tried that and other nut-house drugs and I can't do that stuff. More power to ya fer sure.

 

[tek4260]

From Deadmeat2 over on Mouseguns:

Yes, I've seen the .32 a number of times at autopsy and was underwhelmed. Use it for targets; leave it for self-defense.

 

[jpickar]

Boy, now we have "expert" commentary for those with drug induced dreams. I always thought some of those comments were from somewhere else! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

John

 

[LuckenbachTexas]

I'm sure you haven't seen an autopsy of 32 magnum yet and hopefully never will.

 

[yankee7809]

I've been enjoying this thread very much and would only point out that the military probably wouldn't have accepted the .45 ACP with it's round nosed bullet if it had any doubts to it's ability to perform. That happening a fairly short time after the Phillipines.

 

[Lee Martin]

I don't get caught up in the equations too much. Bullet weight and bore diameter are what matter to me.

My personal carry guns are small though (K & J frame 357s). In both I use a 200 grain soft cast slug at around 850 fps. Hits hard and does expand on wet newspaper.

If I can afford to carry a larger bore, a 44 Special with a 240 - 250 grain bullet at 900 fps is hard to beat.