SR9c problem!

[Yawn]

Yawn wrote: I hear your argument... but it has one major flaw; the other "fun example". You are Joe Smoe and you have just finished shooting your handgun. You drop the mag as part of your storage procedures, and as you are putting your gun away, you noticed it is still cocked. So, you "Dry Fire" your gun, "knowing" that it is empty, only to accidently fire off a round that you did not realize was in the chamber.

Initially, many people would say that Joe should not be handling a gun, and they may in fact be right (though this cannot be your argument because you have already disagreed with the others who have made the same comments against your scenario)

Sorry, but I can make an arguement against that scenario. In my scenario, the mag got dropped for whatever reason.... faulty holster, mag release bumped on wall or whatever you're trying to use for cover, accidentally released by the shooter.....at any rate the shooter did not make a conscious decision to dump the mag....but it happened anyway.....whether it was his fault or not. Either way, it happened and has rendered his gun useless.

In your scenario, Joe has made a conscious decision to break every single safe gun-handling rule in the book by intentionally sticking his finger into the trigger guard and pulling the trigger on a loaded gun.....and expected it to not fire! There are no accidental or un-intentional actions happening in your scenario. The owner of the gun pulls the trigger on a loaded gun and it fires.

Yes, I do agree that we're all humans and that mistakes not only can, but will be made......but, if you are either too stupid, ignorant or poorly trained to pull the trigger on a loaded gun and not expect it to fire, then no amount of safeties built into the gun are going to make the gun safe for you to handle.

In all respect here... you not only missed the main point of what I was saying (and proved it by offering a secondary argument that does not affect my initial argument at all), but you actually ended your comments along the same lines as Verndogs original reply to your initial statements. In other words, you negated all of your arguments because if someone can't keep there magazine in their weapon, then (as you have just stated), "then no amount of safeties (or lack of them) built into the gun are going to make the gun safe for you to handle."

My main point was:
that the scenario I propogated is not only highly possible, but it (and/or something like it) has happened often and will continue to happen. We have all read of the accidental shootings in the news. Your inital scenario and your secondary scenario may happen to someone someday, though I have never heard of it actually happening; but even if it did happen, it would most likely be very rare! Point is your rare to nill hypothetical does not stack well against what continues to happen. So, governments and companies take precautions to save those who are in more danger. And really, the less people make dumb gun mistakes, the better it is for all of us who fight for our second amendmant rights.

All this to say a Mag disconnect is not the final answer, but it is not a bad one for now considering all things.

 

[vacextar]

In other words, you negated all of your arguments because if someone can't keep there magazine in their weapon, then (as you have just stated), "then no amount of safeties (or lack of them) built into the gun are going to make the gun safe for you to handle."

Sorry, but I'm not following you here. How does a mag getting accidentally dumped on the ground suddenly make the gun or operator unsafe? I don't see any arguements negated here. The only "unsafe" condition that results from your mag being dropped unintentionally is IF you have a MAG DISCONNECT installed in your gun and you're left in a gun-fight with a loaded gun that won't fire. Other than that I see no way that an accidental mag drop causes the gun itself to be unsafe.....mag disconnect or not. Please tell me who is going to get accidentally shot, and how, because of a mag being dropped?

I think that YOU are missing the entire point of this in that there is only ONE FAIL-PROOF safety on ANY gun, and that is the mushy stuff between the operator's ears. No matter if the gun has a trigger safety, a mag safety, a hammer drop safety, a decocking lever, a grip safety....any or all of them.......if the operator decides to intentionally stick his/her finger into the trigger guard and pull the trigger on a loaded chamber...AND not expect the gun to fire.....none of these safety are going to make the gun any more or less safe.

Yes, I do hear you that there are plenty of AD's that happen all of the time. And aside from the very, very few where maybe the gun was dropped or trigger genuinely snagged on something (besides the operators finger :roll: ), I'm guessing that 99% of those AD's are caused by just what I said above....the operator having his finger inside the trigger-guard when it should not have been there on a loaded chamber....once again, breaking every safe firearm-handling rule there ever was. And as I said above, there are no amount of safeties that you can add to a gun that will fix that. If you are of the belief that your mag safety has a chance of saving your life, then you are in desperate need of a gun safety class where they can teach you that removing the mag from your gun does not make it "unloaded" and safe to stick your finger into the trigger guard and point it where ever you wish and pull the trigger....mag disconnect or not!!!

According to your last statements, I see that you're all in favor of our fine government deciding how to make our guns "safer" for everyone. Hate to tell you this, but most of them who are in office right now would prefer to make guns "safer" for you by not letting you own one! These are the people you want designing your guns for you?

 

[Yawn]

In other words, you negated all of your arguments because if someone can't keep there magazine in their weapon, then (as you have just stated), "then no amount of safeties (or lack of them) built into the gun are going to make the gun safe for you to handle."

Sorry, but I'm not following you here. How does a mag getting accidentally dumped on the ground suddenly make the gun or operator unsafe? I don't see any arguements negated here. The only "unsafe" condition that results from your mag being dropped unintentionally is IF you have a MAG DISCONNECT installed in your gun and you're left in a gun-fight with a loaded gun that won't fire. Other than that I see no way that an accidental mag drop causes the gun itself to be unsafe.....mag disconnect or not. Please tell me who is going to get accidentally shot, and how, because of a mag being dropped?

You initially said that a mag Disc was unsafe because some holsters drop the mags of the gun. Actually your words were: "You can potentially make the gun totally inop by squeezing the trigger without the mag inserted."

Cheezwiz replied by saying, "If you're not smart enough to keep the magazine in your pistol, you're probably too stupid to be trusted to shoot it."

To which you replied , "Sorry but Cheesewhiz says you're too stupid to shoot your gun due to your faulty holster........"

Verndog also said, "Point being, this is not a toy (like a car isn't), and if I dont know how to properly operate it, in either case it could cost me my my life."

Point is that you poo pooed their "if you don't know how to properrly work it" argument. But then, against my comments you made their same argument, by restating it with these words,
"but, if you are either too stupid, ignorant or poorly trained to pull the trigger on a loaded gun and not expect it to fire, then no amount of safeties built into the gun are going to make the gun safe for you to handle."

In other words, you contradicted yourself proving your own initial statements wrong, and/or the last above statement you made as wrong.

Again, your very first statement was: "IMO, the whole operation of the mag disconnect is a total FAIL in every way."

But I showed you a very realistic and reallife way in which the mag disconnect is not a total fail. Your arguments against my scenario again was, "but, if you are either too stupid, ignorant or poorly trained to pull the trigger on a loaded gun and not expect it to fire, then no amount of safeties built into the gun are going to make the gun safe for you to handle."

Again, you disputed their argument and then restated their argument to try and dispute me.

I think that YOU are missing the entire point of this in that there is only ONE FAIL-PROOF safety on ANY gun, and that is the mushy stuff between the operator's ears.

Is this not exactly what Cheezewhiz and Verndog were saying to you? If you believe this, then you should have replied to their comments, with, "Wow, good point, you guys are so right." But again let me remind you of your own words at the end of page 2, "I guess I won't mention the guy who wrote a few days ago saying that part of his holster was releasing his mag while he carried.......apparently a very stupid individual indeed!....Sorry but Cheesewhiz says you're too stupid to shoot your gun due to your faulty holster........" Do you now think that the guy who started this thread is in fact too stupid (or in your words, is not using "the mushy stuff between the operator's ears") in your opinion? or does this mean that one needs only to be smart enough to work the gun properrly, and not necessarily any other parts like a holster?

No matter if the gun has a trigger safety, a mag safety, a hammer drop safety, a decocking lever, a grip safety....any or all of them.......if the operator decides to intentionally stick his/her finger into the trigger guard and pull the trigger on a loaded chamber...AND not expect the gun to fire.....none of these safety are going to make the gun any more or less safe.

So by the same line of reasoning, if the operator intentionaly decides to carry a gun in a holster that drops the mag (or decides to not test the holster to see if it causes any problems), and not expect that this could create a problem..... let me be clear that I am not saying that any of this is my opinion of anyone, just that these are your words aruging against you.

Yes, I do hear you that there are plenty of AD's that happen all of the time. And aside from the very, very few where maybe the gun was dropped or trigger genuinely snagged on something (besides the operators finger :roll: ), I'm guessing that 99% of those AD's are caused by just what I said above....the operator having his finger inside the trigger-guard when it should not have been there on a loaded chamber....once again, breaking every safe firearm-handling rule there ever was.

And once again, using a holster that has not been tested or has been found to cause problems, breaks the common sense rule of carrying a fire arm; this is again what I understood Verndog and Cheezewhiz were saying.

And as I said above, there are no amount of safeties that you can add to a gun that will fix that. If you are of the belief that your mag safety has a chance of saving your life, then you are in desperate need of a gun safety class where they can teach you that removing the mag from your gun does not make it "unloaded" and safe to stick your finger into the trigger guard and point it where ever you wish and pull the trigger....mag disconnect or not!!!

According to your last statements, I see that you're all in favor of our fine government deciding how to make our guns "safer" for everyone. Hate to tell you this, but most of them who are in office right now would prefer to make guns "safer" for you by not letting you own one! These are the people you want designing your guns for you?

No, I am not. I am in more favor of people knowing how to do things propperly so as to not give the gun law people any amunition to make gun laws with. Which again, was what I understand Verndog and Cheezewiz were trying to say to you about the holster. I hope this clears it all up. Thank you for your comments and time.

Yawn

 

[vacextar]

Wow....apparently there is no way I'm going to say anything that will make you get my point. Maybe I should attempt to clear up my statements.

The theme here is that there is a HUGE!!! difference between the actions of having your mag accidentally dropped from the gun and intentionally sticking your finger into the trigger guard of a loaded gun and pulling the trigger expecting the gun not to fire!!!

Everyone seems to be a big fan of carrying IWB behind the hip and you can't tell me that there's no way that you couldn't bump into something, sit against the spoke on a chair-back the wrong way,etc and it's impossible that the mag would be released without the operators knowledge. As a general rule holsters pretty much ALWAYS completely cover the trigger but RARELY cover or protect the mag release. I'm not saying that this is something that's going to happen on a daily basis or that there is absolutely no way to prevent it. I'm just saying that IMO bumping the mag release accidentally is about 5000 times more likely to happen than the trigger getting accidentally pulled by something besides your trigger finger.

If you drop your mag accidentally you have not broken any of the rules of safe gun handling. If you pull the trigger accidentally on a loaded chamber, you've broken every single safe gun handling rule. Once again, TO ME, there is a pretty huge difference between these two actions. Big enough that they are not even in the same catagory.

Dropping the mag on a gun (intentionally or not) does NOT make THE GUN suddenly unsafe.

Having a mag disconnect or NOT having a mag disconnect does NOT make THE GUN suddenly unsafe regardless of whether the mag is in the gun or out of the gun.

Any mag disconnect CAN make a SITUATION unsafe by leaving the operator un-armed even though he/she still has a loaded gun in their hands in a gun-fight. Whether the mag was accidentally dropped, or the operator was in the middle of a re-load, or maybe the operator fumbled the full mag on the reload, maybe the attacker knocked the full mag out of their hands.....whatever the reason, they are left in a gun-fight with a loaded gun that can not be fired. Once again, this is an UNSAFE SITUATION!!!!...not an UNSAFE GUN!!! There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO!!

IMO a mag safety CAN NEVER make a GUN UNSAFE. REMOVING the mag safety out CAN NEVER make a GUN UNSAFE. Removing a magazine can NEVER make a GUN UNSAFE. Inserting a mag can NEVER make the GUN UNSAFE.

In EVERY SINGLE EXAMPLE you've quoted me on above, ONCE AGIAN, YOU HAVE TOTALLY MISSED THE POINT IN THESE EXAMPLES!!
Let's take this one....although every other example you go thru above is identical to this:

vacextar wrote:
"Yes, I do hear you that there are plenty of AD's that happen all of the time. And aside from the very, very few where maybe the gun was dropped or trigger genuinely snagged on something (besides the operators finger ), I'm guessing that 99% of those AD's are caused by just what I said above....the operator having his finger inside the trigger-guard when it should not have been there on a loaded chamber....once again, breaking every safe firearm-handling rule there ever was."

Yawn wrote:
"And once again, using a holster that has not been tested or has been found to cause problems, breaks the common sense rule of carrying a fire arm; this is again what I understood Verndog and Cheezewhiz were saying."

In my example, I'm talking about a situation that CAN KILL YOU OR SOMEONE ELSE because of YOUR OWN ACTIONS!!! If YOU reach inside the trigger guard and YOU pull the trigger on a loaded gun, that YOU did not expect to go off, then YOU are entirely responsible for YOUR OWN INJURIES OR THE OTHER PERSON YOU SHOT "ACCIDENTALLY". YOU are the one who pulled the trigger. Because YOU broke every single rule of safe gun handling!!

In your example, YOU have broken NO rules of safe gun handling. The mag got dropped. Period. No one was accidentally shot. No one was accidentally injured. Could you have prevented the mag from being dropped? Maybe...maybe not. If you CC, you can't tell me that you have absolutely, positively eliminated any possible way that your SR9c mag can not be accidentally released. IMO, the only way to do this is to remove both mag release buttons and super-glue the loaded mag into the gun. Is either side of your mag release exposed when you carry? Are you 100% positive that if I came up behind you and shoved you in the back as hard as I can, with my hands right on your gun/holster that there's no possible way that I can "accidentally" release your mag? What if you fall down on top of your holstered gun? If any of these things "accidentally" releases your mag, does that make you a stupid and irresponsible gun carrier?

In a gun-fight, worst case is you have a gun with a mag disconnect and you get shot and killed because of it. Best case is you don't have a mag disconnect and you shoot back and end the fight. Now, pay attention, because this is the IMPORTANT POINT OF EVERYTHING I'VE SAID ABOVE AND BELOW!!! If it's the first case, YOU got shot and killed because A BAD GUY WAS INTENT ON SHOOTING YOU AND KILLING YOU.....ON PURPOSE! He didn't ACCIDENTALLY shoot you. You didn't get shot because you accidentally dropped your mag, or were rudely interupted in the middle of a tactical reload when shot. You got shot because a BAD GUY INTENTIONALLY PULLED THE TRIGGER AND SHOT YOU!

In every single arguement you're trying to make in your last post, where you say I'm contradicting myself and proving myself wrong, you're comparing an accidentally dropped mag with an intentional trigger pull. Maybe you see those as comparable actions. I do not, and therefore I don't see that I have contradicted myself at all in any of these little quotes you're trying to use against me.

Let's look at two different scenarios here. In one, lets say a guy is angry at the world, and as he's driving down the road, he makes a conscious decision to speed up to 90mph and crash head on with a little old lady driving toward him in the opposite lane. Both die instantly.

In the other, a little old lady accidentally bumps into another car in the parking lot as she's trying to back out of her parking spot.

Using your logic, these are exactly the same thing....both just car accidents, and you would be arguing that both should be treated the same way and all the same rules apply. Using my logic, one is a car accident, and the other is a straight-up intentional murder/suicide. No comparisons to be made. None of the same rules apply.

Now let's re-cap just to make sure you know what I'm talking about. I don't like anything about the way the mag disconnect works on the SR9c Pistol. It IS a self-destruct mechanism that can lead to failure of your gun to work. Says so right in the owners manual. In my humble opinion, everything about it and the way it operates is a POOR DESIGN. It allows the hammer to drop on a loaded chamber instead of blocking the trigger from moving like every other mag disconnect I've ever seen, and trusts that a chunk of plastic is going to stop the firing pin from hitting the primer. If I'm not mistaken, someone just wrote a few days ago on this forum, stating that they have an SR9c that they've never removed the mag disconnect from, however, the gun will still fire even with no mag inserted! So basically it can fail in two ways......either NOT work when it's SUPPOSED to, or work by blocking the firing pin when it's NOT SUPPOSED to, leaving you with a gun that won't fire whether a mag is inserted or not. Once again, I feel the evidence supports me here in that is a total FAIL of a mag disconnect design.

As a result, this can cause the gun to put you in an UNSAFE SITUATION by leaving you with a loaded gun that you need to save your life, but the gun will not fire. THERE IS NO WAY THAT ANYONE CAN BE ACCIDENTALLY KILLED BECAUSE OF THIS POOR DESIGN.

Even with it's POOR DESIGN, the mag disconnect can NOT MAKE THE GUN UNSAFE. ONLY THE OPERATOR CAN MAKE THE GUN UNSAFE BY INTENTIONALLY STICKING HIS FINGER INTO THE TRIGGER GUARD and PULLING THE TRIGGER ON A LOADED CHAMBER.

Dropped mag = no one accidentally shot and/or killed. No Chance. Can't happen. Maybe the dropped mag could have been prevented by the operator. Maybe it couldn't have. Doesn't really matter as none of this causes a situation where someone is going to be accidentally killed.

Stick finger into trigger guard and pull trigger on loaded gun and expect it to not go off = best case....an extremely embarrassing situation. Worst case...innocent person gets "accidentally" killed.

So are we going to keep comparing a dropped mag to a pulled trigger? I don't see any comparison here.

 

[Yawn]

If anyone is still following this thread, I think the main point of all of my comments can be summed up in the bold and underlined statements below. If nothing else, please read those statements.

Wow....apparently there is no way I'm going to say anything that will make you get my point. Maybe I should attempt to clear up my statements.

Because your point is contradicting as I previously laid out and showed you.

The theme here is that there is a HUGE!!! difference between the actions of having your mag accidentally dropped from the gun and intentionally sticking your finger into the trigger guard of a loaded gun and pulling the trigger expecting the gun not to fire!!!

There is the problem in your argument and what I was pointing out to you in my previous post. You see a huge difference inthe scenarios because one you see as the fault of the gun maker and the other you see as the fault of the individual. But again, (please refer to my previous post for a full breakdown of this) Cheezewhiz and Verndog were both pointing out that anyone who carries a gun in a holster that has a tendency to drop the mag, or someone who carries a gun in a holster without any practice with it (therebye finding out that it drops the mag) is as equally at fault as someone who pulls the trigger. The difference is that the latter actually happens quite often, and so some companies and states require a mag disconnect. Now, please sit with these statements for a bit here before responding.

Everyone seems to be a big fan of carrying IWB behind the hip and you can't tell me that there's no way that you couldn't bump into something, sit against the spoke on a chair-back the wrong way,etc and it's impossible that the mag would be released without the operators knowledge.

I have never heard anyone have that happen to them. Now, again, I am not saying that it couldn't. but you are missing the empirical data here. If that scenario has ever happened, it is very rare. The scenario I gave is not rare. So, they went for the protection of the most common problem. Your main argument is that they are protecting as you stated, mushy brained people, by putting "smart" people in jeopardy. Again, that argument does not hold up when discussing mag drops from holster problems, as you did in your first scenario, because of reason stated in my post above. The scenario quoted directly above this paragraph does change things a bit... but again, I am not sure that anyone has heard of bumping into a wall or a chair back releasing a magazine. But by changing your scenario, you change the argument. Which is your right to do, but this entire conversation has been predicated on your scenario originally given.

As a general rule holsters pretty much ALWAYS completely cover the trigger but RARELY cover or protect the mag release. I'm not saying that this is something that's going to happen on a daily basis or that there is absolutely no way to prevent it. I'm just saying that IMO bumping the mag release accidentally is about 5000 times more likely to happen than the trigger getting accidentally pulled by something besides your trigger finger.

I already adrressed liklihood and frquency. See my post above for comment on the juxtposition of frequency between the two scanrios. I will not say much else to statements I have already taken time to address.

If you drop your mag accidentally you have not broken any of the rules of safe gun handling. If you pull the trigger accidentally on a loaded chamber, you've broken every single safe gun handling rule. Once again, TO ME, there is a pretty huge difference between these two actions. Big enough that they are not even in the same catagory.

Again, I have addressed this... speaking of missing what is being said... you have missed what a few people have said with regards to this. Again, refer to my post above.

Dropping the mag on a gun (intentionally or not) does NOT make THE GUN suddenly unsafe.

Having a mag disconnect or NOT having a mag disconnect does NOT make THE GUN suddenly unsafe regardless of whether the mag is in the gun or out of the gun.
Any mag disconnect CAN make a SITUATION unsafe by leaving the operator un-armed even though he/she still has a loaded gun in their hands in a gun-fight. Whether the mag was accidentally dropped, or the operator was in the middle of a re-load, or maybe the operator fumbled the full mag on the reload, maybe the attacker knocked the full mag out of their hands.....whatever the reason, they are left in a gun-fight with a loaded gun that can not be fired. Once again, this is an UNSAFE SITUATION!!!!...not an UNSAFE GUN!!! There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO!!

Agreed, but no one has ever argued that the gun was unsafe. You are making statements to arguments no one has proposed.

IMO a mag safety CAN NEVER make a GUN UNSAFE. REMOVING the mag safety out CAN NEVER make a GUN UNSAFE. Removing a magazine can NEVER make a GUN UNSAFE. Inserting a mag can NEVER make the GUN UNSAFE.

In EVERY SINGLE EXAMPLE you've quoted me on above, ONCE AGIAN, YOU HAVE TOTALLY MISSED THE POINT IN THESE EXAMPLES!!

Sorry here my friend... I just don't think you are taking time to read the things that people have written. And again let me state that this mag disconnect design can definitely be improved upon and has it problems, but there is an at least decent reason it was installed and your original scenario simply doesn't hold much water against that reasoning.

Let's take this one....although every other example you go thru above is identical to this:

vacextar wrote:
"Yes, I do hear you that there are plenty of AD's that happen all of the time. And aside from the very, very few where maybe the gun was dropped or trigger genuinely snagged on something (besides the operators finger ), I'm guessing that 99% of those AD's are caused by just what I said above....the operator having his finger inside the trigger-guard when it should not have been there on a loaded chamber....once again, breaking every safe firearm-handling rule there ever was."

Yawn wrote:
"And once again, using a holster that has not been tested or has been found to cause problems, breaks the common sense rule of carrying a fire arm; this is again what I understood Verndog and Cheezewhiz were saying."

In my example, I'm talking about a situation that CAN KILL YOU OR SOMEONE ELSE because of YOUR OWN ACTIONS!!! If YOU reach inside the trigger guard and YOU pull the trigger on a loaded gun, that YOU did not expect to go off, then YOU are entirely responsible for YOUR OWN INJURIES OR THE OTHER PERSON YOU SHOT "ACCIDENTALLY". YOU are the one who pulled the trigger. Because YOU broke every single rule of safe gun handling!!

In your example, YOU have broken NO rules of safe gun handling. The mag got dropped. Period. No one was accidentally shot.

See here it is again... you restated my example and then ended the paragraph with, "Because YOU broke every single rule of safe gun handling!!" Then you started the next paragraph with, "In your example, YOU have broken NO rules of safe gun handling.". In fact, you said your example breaks all hand gun rules when earlier you said mine did. Sorry but you are all over the mao here. And again, as Cheezewhiz and VErndog have stated, "using a holster (and implied: using anything else) that you know has the potential to make your gun unshootable and/or not testing it to see if it will, is a violation of safe handgun handling and really of some common sense in my opinion.

No one was accidentally injured. Could you have prevented the mag from being dropped? Maybe...maybe not. If you CC, you can't tell me that you have absolutely, positively eliminated any possible way that your SR9c mag can not be accidentally released. IMO, the only way to do this is to remove both mag release buttons and super-glue the loaded mag into the gun. Is either side of your mag release exposed when you carry? Are you 100% positive that if I came up behind you and shoved you in the back as hard as I can, with my hands right on your gun/holster that there's no possible way that I can "accidentally" release your mag?

First, if someone got thier hands on a CC gun that is holstered on a person's body, and all they did was drop the mag, well, what can I say to that. And again, no one is arguing that this could never happen. again, see my post above for statements about this. I really have addresses all of this above.

What if you fall down on top of your holstered gun? If any of these things "accidentally" releases your mag, does that make you a stupid and irresponsible gun carrier?

In a gun-fight, worst case is you have a gun with a mag disconnect and you get shot and killed because of it. Best case is you don't have a mag disconnect and you shoot back and end the fight. Now, pay attention, because this is the IMPORTANT POINT OF EVERYTHING I'VE SAID ABOVE AND BELOW!!! If it's the first case, YOU got shot and killed because A BAD GUY WAS INTENT ON SHOOTING YOU AND KILLING YOU.....ON PURPOSE! He didn't ACCIDENTALLY shoot you. You didn't get shot because you accidentally dropped your mag,

Actually you did! That is the whole point here. For some reason you are assigning blame to the bad guy that you were not prepared in having a holster that wouldn't render your gun unshootable. (The reasons/arguments for why a gun has a built-in machanism to be rendered unshootable are mentioned above, so please do not comment about that here. This is about responsilbilty in your reply to the last quoted sentence above.) The shooter is legally/morallly responsible for shooting you, and the full blame for the shooting is upon him (and should be upon him), but the blame for you not being fully prepared should be upon you. CCing a gun in a holster that is not tested or that is known to cause problems is not being prepared. Isn't the point of CC so that you take away the bad guys ability to base your life on his legal/moral ethics? Not being prepared as I have just stated, returned the decision to the bad guy. In fact, one could make the argument that not being prepared to defend yourself properly in states allowing shall issue CC is in fact your fault at least to some, if not just a little, extent; but by no means more than a little extent. And agin, the full guilt of the shooting is on the bad guy and should be. But to say that people in shall issue CC states have no culpability in their own personal defense is in fact an argument that may have lead to handgun restrictions to begin with. Americans in so many facets are fighting for the right to have a chance to handle things on their own before the govenrment gets involved and mandates how a situation must be handled. isn't that what the Constitution is based on, the freedom of personal responsibility? Right now in some ways, especially in California, some states have self-defense welfare. Don't handle it yourself, we the state will do it for you, but all you get is what we give you, so be happy with it... and oh it won't be much, there are a lot of you and budget cuts! Socialism Self-defense. My wife said, "but then you would have people deciding their own rules. " Why would you? I will pay to be taught some self-defense and the law around that, but then also give me the freedom to exercise that teaching and right. Isn't this exactly what some states do? Just like economics, take some of the responsbility that is on the state and give it back to me, and the freedom that comes with that responsibility.

I think everything else below is more of something that I have previously addressed above. Thankyou for your time Vacextar and for the discussion!

or were rudely interupted in the middle of a tactical reload when shot. You got shot because a BAD GUY INTENTIONALLY PULLED THE TRIGGER AND SHOT YOU!

In every single arguement you're trying to make in your last post, where you say I'm contradicting myself and proving myself wrong, you're comparing an accidentally dropped mag with an intentional trigger pull.

Ok, I had to address this last point. your statements above take the two scanrios out of context and context is important here. The context of both scenarios is human culpability and error. Error to pull a trigger when not safely prepared to shoot the gun and error to carry a gun when you know the holster ejects the Mag or when you have never tested the holster. Human culpability has always been the context here... you debated it and disagreed when it didn't suite your argument and then used the same argument when it did. Again thanks for some good conversation!

Maybe you see those as comparable actions. I do not, and therefore I don't see that I have contradicted myself at all in any of these little quotes you're trying to use against me.

Let's look at two different scenarios here. In one, lets say a guy is angry at the world, and as he's driving down the road, he makes a conscious decision to speed up to 90mph and crash head on with a little old lady driving toward him in the opposite lane. Both die instantly.

In the other, a little old lady accidentally bumps into another car in the parking lot as she's trying to back out of her parking spot.

Using your logic, these are exactly the same thing....both just car accidents, and you would be arguing that both should be treated the same way and all the same rules apply. Using my logic, one is a car accident, and the other is a straight-up intentional murder/suicide. No comparisons to be made. None of the same rules apply.

Now let's re-cap just to make sure you know what I'm talking about. I don't like anything about the way the mag disconnect works on the SR9c Pistol. It IS a self-destruct mechanism that can lead to failure of your gun to work. Says so right in the owners manual. In my humble opinion, everything about it and the way it operates is a POOR DESIGN. It allows the hammer to drop on a loaded chamber instead of blocking the trigger from moving like every other mag disconnect I've ever seen, and trusts that a chunk of plastic is going to stop the firing pin from hitting the primer. If I'm not mistaken, someone just wrote a few days ago on this forum, stating that they have an SR9c that they've never removed the mag disconnect from, however, the gun will still fire even with no mag inserted! So basically it can fail in two ways......either NOT work when it's SUPPOSED to, or work by blocking the firing pin when it's NOT SUPPOSED to, leaving you with a gun that won't fire whether a mag is inserted or not. Once again, I feel the evidence supports me here in that is a total FAIL of a mag disconnect design.

As a result, this can cause the gun to put you in an UNSAFE SITUATION by leaving you with a loaded gun that you need to save your life, but the gun will not fire. THERE IS NO WAY THAT ANYONE CAN BE ACCIDENTALLY KILLED BECAUSE OF THIS POOR DESIGN.

Even with it's POOR DESIGN, the mag disconnect can NOT MAKE THE GUN UNSAFE. ONLY THE OPERATOR CAN MAKE THE GUN UNSAFE BY INTENTIONALLY STICKING HIS FINGER INTO THE TRIGGER GUARD and PULLING THE TRIGGER ON A LOADED CHAMBER.

Dropped mag = no one accidentally shot and/or killed. No Chance. Can't happen. Maybe the dropped mag could have been prevented by the operator. Maybe it couldn't have. Doesn't really matter as none of this causes a situation where someone is going to be accidentally killed.

Stick finger into trigger guard and pull trigger on loaded gun and expect it to not go off = best case....an extremely embarrassing situation. Worst case...innocent person gets "accidentally" killed.

So are we going to keep comparing a dropped mag to a pulled trigger? I don't see any comparison here.

 

[Verndog]

OK guys...time to get a room. :roll:

 

[vacextar]

I can sum up your whole last post in one sentence. You have no idea how to tell the difference between INTENTIONAL and ACCIDENTAL.

This is what you just said:

"And again, as Cheezewhiz and VErndog have stated, "using a holster (and implied: using anything else) that you know has the potential to make your gun unshootable and/or not testing it to see if it will, is a violation of safe handgun handling and really of some common sense in my opinion."

Please, Please tell me how someone is going to get accidentally shot or injured with a gun that has just been made "unshootable".....as just defined by you!?? What you have just said is that when I unload my gun and take it apart to clean it, I have just put myself in (these are YOUR words!) "violation of safe handgun handling". Because I just made my gun unshootable. As far as using a holster that is untested or that you know will accidentally release your mag, I agree competely that this is not the brightest thing to do and lacks common sense.....BUT...the difference is that there's no way that this situation is going to put anyone in danger of being accidentally shot nor does it violate any of the safe gun handling rules I've ever been taught or know exist. If you want to argue this, please tell me how someone who would intentionally eject a half used mag to do a tactical reload----who has a mag disconnect in his gun---has not just violated your so-called rules of safe gunhandling? While the first mag is ejected, and the second mag has not yet been inserted, isn't his gun "unshootable" as defined by you above...and as a result, he has violated YOUR idea of safe gun handling?

You need to look thru all of your own arguements against me here. In EVERY SINGLE EXAMPLE YOU POSE you are arguing that making a gun unshootable (your words!) is violating safe handgun handling rules? Once again, please tell me one single example of how you can break safe gunhandling rules by making a gun "unshootable". I make my gun "unshootable" on purpose....ALL THE TIME!! Every time I clean it. Every time I clear the chamber and load in a snap cap to practice dry-firing. How are these actions putting me or others in danger?

You keep bringing up the fact that AD's (accidental discharge) happen way more often than accidentally dropping the mag or whatever else. I don't doubt that that is true....AND I would like to know the percentage of those AD's that happen with the mag removed vs. with the mag inserted....my guess is most of them happen with the mag inserted, which really makes no difference either way, but it would just go to show that I'm sure most AD's happen with the mag in place. In reality, the term "accidental discharge" might as well have been created by you, as there is nothing "accidental" about them. The operator of the gun stuck his finger into the trigger guard and pulled the trigger on a live round and the gun went off...just like guns are designed to do. This is most often an INTENTIONAL DECISION by the operator of the gun, and therefore is NO ACCIDENT. You hear of many of them happening when LEO are re-holstering their guns, and they have forgotten to first remove their finger from the trigger guard before shoving the gun down into the holster. Now this, I will give you is an accident, as the operator did not intentionally pull the trigger, BUT!!!! HE DID BREAK EVERY SAFE GUN HANDLING RULE BY HAVING HIS FINGER INSIDE THE TRIGGER GUARD IN THE FIRST PLACE! Once again, there is not a safety mechanism in the world that is going to prevent AD's resulting from the operator breaking the most basic of safe gun handling rules.

A mag disconnect is ONLY a SAFETY DEVICE when the operator of the gun is using the gun in an unsafe manner. Period.

Maybe we should try to remember the actual rules of safe gun handling. I'm not even sure I remember all of them, but I do remember the IMPORTANT ONES.

1. Do not let the muzzle of the gun point at anything you are not willing to destroy.

2. NEVER stick your finger into the trigger guard of a gun until you are on target and intend to shoot.

All the other rules are pretty much centered around unloading the gun, making sure the gun is unloaded, etc.....but the 2 I have listed above pretty much cover all you need to know to safely handle a gun.

So, once again, please tell me how making a gun "unshootable" violates either of these rules.

Also, just out of curiosity, would you classify any of the events of 9/11 as an "airplane accident"?

 

[Big Stu]

I have put a couple of hundred rounds through my SR9c, it feeds perfectly with all ammo tried but I am getting about 10 percent misfires. Just seems like light firing pin strikes. I have heard that others have had the same problem. So what is the fix?

I just wanted to remind anyone that is reading this thread what the topic is actually supposed to be about :wink:

 

[Yawn]

I have put a couple of hundred rounds through my SR9c, it feeds perfectly with all ammo tried but I am getting about 10 percent misfires. Just seems like light firing pin strikes. I have heard that others have had the same problem. So what is the fix?

I just wanted to remind anyone that is reading this thread what the topic is actually supposed to be about :wink:

I couldn't agree more... threads will head off topic, but this tangent has gone on long enough and I fear that clear communication is not happening between myself and Vace... but my hope was and is that someone could gleen something helpful from this tangent; especially now as it appears that at least some are glancing at it.

As I said above, we are starting to go in circles and for me to continue would require me to restate things again. That is when it is time to stop in my opinion as well.

Laslty Vace, as to your continued claim above of my not understanding of things you propose; my only answer to that is please reread my posts. It is all in there, as it was in Cheezewhiz's and Verndogs posts; I just went into more detail. Thanks for your time Vace, and hopefully something in this will prove helpful to someone!

Yawn

 

[vacextar]

Yawn,

I totally agree, and I also hope that anyone who has taken the time to wade thru all of this AT LEAST walks away with the realization that the two "safe gun-handling rules" I posted above can not be more important. There is no replacement for learning and following these 2 rules every single day....no matter where you are or what environment you are in. The only person who can enforce those 2 rules is YOU! No one is going to do it for you, and there is not a singe gun or safety mechanism in the world that will prevent the unthinkable from happening if you choose not to follow those 2 simple rules.

To the OP....I apologize for hi-jacking your thread! Carry on......(pun intended :wink: )

 

[Yawn]

Those two rules were never in question or contention in anyway, shape, or form.

To the thread topic... I bought the full size SR9 because of the reported light strike problems with the SR9c. I really wanted the SR9c, but at the end of the day, the gun needs to shoot a round when I pull the trigger. Many people suggested different fixes, but the most troublesome common denominator with the light strike problems is that many if not most of them seemed to happen well after the gun had been broken in. For all the issues that the SR9 had (had being the operaticve word), once the gun is broken in, the only thing most people report is that it eats ammo like IRS eats money... both are unstoppable. Hopefully Ruger can get this all worked out with the SR9c... I may get one when its serial prefix changes such as the SR9 did.

 

[Sonnytoo]

I have put a couple of hundred rounds through my SR9c, it feeds perfectly with all ammo tried but I am getting about 10 percent misfires. Just seems like light firing pin strikes. I have heard that others have had the same problem. So what is the fix?

I just wanted to remind anyone that is reading this thread what the topic is actually supposed to be about :wink:

Long discussion... I hope you saw my link early on, which shows the light primer strikes vs normal ones. Also, that Ruger FIXED my 9c by installing a longer striker spring. NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.
Anyway, good luck to you guys. My gun was finally made 100% by Ruger Service. They did a good job. However, I found that I wouldn't carry the gun out of the house anymore. I traded it.
I'm a big fan of Ruger revolvers, but it will be some time before I purchase another semi-auto from this fine company. Actually, given one more year for the 9c to "settle in", perhaps that will be a good time to try another one. Perhaps, by then, Ruger will forget about mag disconnects.. another sore spot.
best regards,
Sonnyto

 

[vacextar]

Those two rules were never in question or contention in anyway, shape, or form.

Ummm....that's the point you've missed all along. The fact that people regularly and INTENTIONALLY break those two rules is THE ONE AND ONLY REASON FOR THE EXISTENCE OF A MAG DISCONNECT "SAFETY". What other purpose does it serve than to protect the people who do NOT follow these two rules from shooting themselves?

I'm ready to let this die whenever you are.......

 

[ArmedinAZ]

I'm ready to let this die whenever you are.......

Except you both want to have the last word. :roll:

 

[Verndog]

...What other purpose does it serve than to protect the people who do NOT follow these two rules from shooting themselves?

It adds a layer of protection from the gun getting into the wrong hands (children, other family members that happen upon it) and being fired. Obviously in that situation its best to lock the weapon from unwanted hands, but you could seperate the mags and lock or hide them and leave the gun and ammo laying around and accomplish the same thing. Silly way to "be responsible" IMO but its an option that helps avoid accidental shootings.

 

[vacextar]

Just read thru this whole thread (a few threads down from the top) titled "Defensive Storage":

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=103420&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I see no one who posted stores their guns with a loaded chamber and mag removed.........

 

[Mike J]

I once read that, "A wise man should not argue with a fool lest he be considered a fool also". I am sure both of ya'all think ya'all are right but does it really matter? There comes a time when the most intelligent thing to do is agree to disagree & let it go. I'm not seeing any wisdom in this thread.

 

[Yawn]

I'm ready to let this die whenever you are.......

Except you both want to have the last word. :roll:

No, I was and am quite done as I previously stated, and have moved on in my posts in this thread back to the original topic at hand. I have no further comment about the tangent subject matter other than to affirm that I have no further comment about the tangent subject matter. He is now back arguing his points of merit with Verndog.

 

[Yawn]

I once read that, "A wise man should not argue with a fool lest he be considered a fool also". I am sure both of ya'all think ya'all are right but does it really matter? There comes a time when the most intelligent thing to do is agree to disagree & let it go. I'm not seeing any wisdom in this thread.

To answer your question; maybe, it might matter... Mag disconnects and the merrits thereof, or lack thereof, have the potential to enter the national legal arena in the future, as well as the reasoning behind such topics; leading to possible further legislation. Isn't discussion of such things part of what this site is about?

BUT, just not for this long in this thread... I get it.

And yes, I am quickly commenting on your guys' follow-up posts, but this is not the subject matter of the tangent conversation (yes it is somewhat related, but I assure you I have said all that I will with-in that conversation)... I just felt it important to answer Mike's question because I feel that it was an important and relevant question.

Thanks all

 

[Yawn]

I have put a couple of hundred rounds through my SR9c, it feeds perfectly with all ammo tried but I am getting about 10 percent misfires. Just seems like light firing pin strikes. I have heard that others have had the same problem. So what is the fix?

I just wanted to remind anyone that is reading this thread what the topic is actually supposed to be about :wink:

Long discussion... I hope you saw my link early on, which shows the light primer strikes vs normal ones. Also, that Ruger FIXED my 9c by installing a longer striker spring. NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.
Anyway, good luck to you guys. My gun was finally made 100% by Ruger Service. They did a good job. However, I found that I wouldn't carry the gun out of the house anymore. I traded it.
I'm a big fan of Ruger revolvers, but it will be some time before I purchase another semi-auto from this fine company. Actually, given one more year for the 9c to "settle in", perhaps that will be a good time to try another one. Perhaps, by then, Ruger will forget about mag disconnects.. another sore spot.
best regards,
Sonnyto

A lot of companies seem to real world field test... which is not horrendous if its your Apple Ipod, but not fine if it is your Ruger CCW. I am not saying that Ruger was real world field testing, but I did found it a little disconcerting to learn about the somewhat common light strike problem with the SR9c. Did that not show up in their closed market field testing? At least the general bulk of the SR9 problems (when it first hit the market) were not things that could make the gun not fire when needed. But this light strike thing should have been fixed prior to the SR9c ever hitting the market. I love Ruger, but I have learned with many many products to wait (at least try to) until the 2nd Gen or in this case, serial prefix change, has come out; or until people as we find on sites like this one create/find their own fixes...