Solar Panel financial fraud

I admit to not reading the story. My point is that I bought a home that was 18 months old in 2020 in a prefect area for solar panels. The person who bought the home new choose not to add them. Some folks around here have them, most don't. I checked into getting them and learned there just not worth the cost.
Pros are free electricity. Some tax refunds. They might last 30 years.
Cons are many. Without investing into a battery bank at 2020 costs would have been an extra $15,000 to have one. Without a battery no free electricity at night. Your without electricity at night if the grid goes down without a battery. So costs would have been $34,000 out of pocket on my 2,000 sq ft home with a Tesla battery in 2020. Could have taken out a 30 year loan through the solar company. I would be paying 2 times the cost each month than my current electric bill. I would need to pay all costs of repair and maintenance of the system. Before 30 years is up, I will need a new roof. I would need to pay to remove the panels. At that point they would likely be still working, but old school compared to new panels at that point. So who pays off the loan, me. Do I get new panels then? pay to have the old system put back on?
I could have paid cash, break even was in the 10 to 15 year point. I am guessing here but again at that point new will be a lot better than 2020 stuff.
The last thing I did was research buying straight from China. I would save 2/3 thirds from buying local. If I got a container full or enough for 3 homes. Now that might work out. One neighbor was liking the idea. Another was interested but not willing to commit. We are all seniors and not going to be on the steep roofs putting them up. No company would install them for us. They need us to buy a system from them. We never got a figure for labor. For a system we would buy wholesale. That may have ended that plan.
The idea that the electric company will pay you for any power you put back into the grid. Sounds good until you read the details. They determine what they will pay you. A friend in the Willamette Valley said his power company quit buying his extra power. I checked, herer that could also happen.
At resale I checked with my agent. Now that my wife is gone. I live in a big 2 story house by myself and will likely downsize. His experience said a solar panel with batteries system on my house might add up to 12-15000 value at sale time, another loss.
So if you can pay cash, will live in the home for many years. Maybe they will actually make a good investment. I am still not convinced. The door to door solar panel sales must be making a ton of money.
I pay less than 100 a month for power. I have generators to use if power goes out that cost about 2500 bucks. I am good.
If the home came with a system already and the cost was 10,000 more, on the purchase of the home I would have made that deal. Not another 34,000 or more now.
 
Too many red flags for residential solar to be taken seriously.
My neighbor and I have talked to a couple different companies by phone or email.

They provide no info unless you agree to an in-person appointment in your home.
They don’t know even an approximate cost,
Savings over your current utility bills range from “we can’t say unless we meet in person” to “up to 90%”.
You HAVE to finance it …. No paying in full up front,
 
Some houses around here have solar panels. I don’t personally know any of the owners. None of the houses are close by.

Another con you didn’t mention is cleaning the panels. I was out for a bike ride last summer. Some people with solar panels were standing up on the roof with a broom and mop cleaning the panels.

It looked pretty dangerous. Not something I would want to do at all. But it probably needs done on a regular basis.
 
The real problems are the technology is changing at a very rapid pace and like any new thing there are going to be folks out there trying to make a quick killing. My church got a large bank of solar panels installed for free a number of years ago...now we find out they are 'out of date' and no longer can be serviced properly? I will tell you the biggest rip off... there was a hail storm a couple of years back and our insurance adjuster for the church insisted the roof be replaced... there was no damage I could find from the hail storm... there was damage to part of the 'older' roof (10 years old) from when an addition beside this area was put on... workers walking on the roof. But according to the powers that be we would no longer have any insurance on the roof if we did not replace it. On top of that the roof under the solar panels had to be replaced also.... which meant having the panels removed and put back up... now considering there was no damage to the solar panels from the hail storm how in the world was there any damage to the roofing under them?

About a year ago three members of my church were trying to figure out what was wrong with the control panel to the solar panels that is suppose to send power into the grid and get us a credit.. my job was to cut the lock off the panel and hold a multi tester for them. Two members are engineers and the other is a licensed electrician... after standing there listening to them speak a foreign language for 10 minutes I finally put the multi tester down and went and found something productive to do.
 
There are to many variable by your electrical provider to say wether solar is economically feasible for you .
1. The amount of electricity you use . Your climate and your personal level of comfort you want in summer winter.
2. The rate they pay you for you unused electricity . This verys by utility and state.
3. Your location and if it is suitable for solar .

Our personal situation was we were paying 3600 dollars a year in 2021 spent 23000 after federal rebate for solar system ( I know sucking on the government nipple ) A 6-7 year pay back . In the last 2 years we have had a 30% increase in electrical rate making it close to 5 year pay back . And more raises to come . I’m in California and my electric company has been found liable for starting major wildfires and is paying for them .
So without solar I would be paying close to 5000 a year in electricity. So a 5000 return on a 23000 investment is petty good in my book

My advice is find out what your energy company is going to pay you for your in unused energy and see if it will make economical since . 10 miles from us a different utility lot lower rate and no payback for unused electricity system would not have been worth it . Then shop around and use reference for the solar company. The quotes we received varied by 10000 dollars . We used a local family owned company with long track record who designed a system for our needs and it does what they say it will do.

Also consider over building system for further expansion like going all electric stove hot water heater ac anything else you can think of . Because panels are cheaper part of the system .
 
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About 3 years ago I had a representative from a local solar company come out to my house and give me an estimate. My home is all electric but I do have propane heat in my pole barn. One roof on the house and another on the barn both face south so that was good. Local electric utility will buy back excess power generated by the new system. No batteries. Cost of materials and installation was $75000! That meant about a 20 year payback at current rates. I would be over 90 years old if i make it that far. Instead I invested in a whole house propane powered generator for about $11000. I think I'm good till I pass on.
 
They came around our sub-division door to door pushing it. Showed me my history with Com Ed and started in on the savings , benefits etc implying that the state would pay most and also implied that they were ComEd ( without actually coming out and saying so) instead of who they really were (one of the shadier local suppliers). He actually seemed surprised that I told him that I in no way wanted those on my house.

I wonder; do they put on a new roof before adding the panels, when a new roof is required do they need to come down and get re-installed? Battery cost life and and disposal ?
 
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Well, it's obvious that no one read the article. The point of that article was not about pros and cons of residential solar power/products, but rather the financial SCAM perpetuated by the solar panel companies. It is quite detailed on how they screw you in more ways than most could even imagine. At the end, they even shine a light on the recruiters who are recruiting sales people. Very enlightening pitch they use; and the financial benefits to selling, not solar panels, but the loan packages that almost every unsuspecting prospect will have to avail themselves of. The article starts off:
"A decade ago, someone knocking on your door to sell you solar panels would have been selling you solar panels. Now, they are probably selling you a financial product—likely a lease or a loan.

Mary Ann Jones, 83, didn't realize this had happened to her until she received a call last year from GoodLeap, a financial technology company, saying she owed $52,564.28 for a solar panel loan that expires when she's 106, and costs more than she originally paid for her house."
And it gets more frightening as you read thru the bazzillion words............
J.
 
I think the whole needing, selling and getting tax breaks on home solar panels is a fraud. Now if you want them do your own research, if you can afford them and realize it's a lousy investment. Get them.
The sales pitch from the door to door company guys and on line stuff is way miss leading. I listened to several. In a few months there will be teams of solar company guys again going door to door here trying to sell a bucket of poo. I'm not buying any.
 
Oh I read the entire article. Read it before you posted it and thought of posting it here myself.

Consumers make horrible and often life changing decisions every day of the week. Scammers and cheats are everywhere in just about every profession imaginable.
 
We have 65 panels on our barn. They generate about $1000 worth of electricity a month. Our big issue is that the power company made the process as difficult as possible and then came up with all the new "fees" we had to pay. They also, after approving the whole design, decided we needed a new transformer, even though we had just bought a larger one for the install. Now, we have to monitor and check our intake and output every month to ensure they are properly calculating the amounts (they rarely do). Its a constant struggle with them, even though they resell our power at a premium, people will actually pay extra for their power to have it come from a renewable source. I will say that in the year they have been up we have not had to pay a power bill for 2 houses, swimming pool and 2 barns🤷‍♂️
 
I've been looking at a solar power source at a couple of remote machinery storage buildings. A table top sized panel and 1-2 battery cell. Just for the capability to have continuous battery maintenance for the machines stored there. In the barns where we have electricity, I shuffle 'trickle chargers' from one machine to another on a weekly basis especially during extreme cold. It would be handy to have this option for the remote sheds also.
 
Check with your homeowners insurance to make sure they will cover them and the warranty on your roof to if the installation voids it.

Florida, these people call everyday. ;)
 
I've been looking at a solar power source at a couple of remote machinery storage buildings. A table top sized panel and 1-2 battery cell. Just for the capability to have continuous battery maintenance for the machines stored there. In the barns where we have electricity, I shuffle 'trickle chargers' from one machine to another on a weekly basis especially during extreme cold. It would be handy to have this option for the remote sheds also.
Mobuck, I'm going to assume that you will source your own panels, transfer switch(s), batteries etc.; and complete the installation yourself or have a local guy (with a license) help out. (and probably not waste your time selling any power to the power gods.
If so, I'm guessing that you will be pleased.
IMtrulyHO,

J.
 
We have 65 panels on our barn. They generate about $1000 worth of electricity a month. Our big issue is that the power company made the process as difficult as possible and then came up with all the new "fees" we had to pay. They also, after approving the whole design, decided we needed a new transformer, even though we had just bought a larger one for the install. Now, we have to monitor and check our intake and output every month to ensure they are properly calculating the amounts (they rarely do). Its a constant struggle with them, even though they resell our power at a premium, people will actually pay extra for their power to have it come from a renewable source. I will say that in the year they have been up we have not had to pay a power bill for 2 houses, swimming pool and 2 barns🤷‍♂️
Do you mind saying what the system cost ?
I bet you can pay a power bill for 12 - 15 years for that
 
There have been a couple of hog barn owners who went solar to cut costs for powering ventilation fans and other electric components. They failed to make a deal with local REC for the 'extra' and REC refused to 'buy' that excess. Our local REC (rural electric cooperative) buys power 1-2 years in advance and has/had no provisions for a locally produced source. Too much paperwork and too 'iffy' to depend on.
Yes Johnnu2, this was going to be a personal sourcing and installation. I'd like to have a limited, short term source of AC like one of the 'battery generators' that could power work lights or other small devices in addition to the trickle charger.
 
If it were not for massive government subsidies -- which you and I pay for -- the entire "alternative energy" scam would collapse on its face -- solar, wind turbine, gasohol, electric vehicles, you name it. NONE of it is economical without the subsidies. The financing scam is just another larcenous aspect of the whole debacle.
 
I'll admit to not reading the article about the scam stuff.

That said,, I did a lot of my own studying of solar panels, for various purposes. Whole house, out buildings etc. And I also studied the investment, the return, the maintenance, the financing etc.

My findings for my purposes were that if I did as Mobuck has mentioned,, out buildings, buy quality stuff & install myself or have a local installer,, would likely be a good option for special purposes. For the whole house,, having a shingle roof, (initially) thinking of maintenance, roof replacement, etc,, the investment was a bit overwhelming. Especially long term.
When looking at the subsidies, as well as the push for taking out a loan etc,, the whole house idea was very scary. In short,, no way in hades will I consider it. I smelled a serious scam every time I had questions and got the song & dance "distraction" as the system sellers would not give me good solid direct answers. And when I did get numbers,, and did the math, it was NOT an educated choice to try solar.

Green weenie types push such stuff, without a serious education for the long term or expenses. And like others here,, an emergency generator system is preferred. Until they can PROVE a serious reduction in investment expenses, all while PROVING an increase in quality, maintenance, warranty, etc,, that is better than what we have,, I'll stay with what I have.


Basically, I educated myself, and discovered it's a scam mostly overall.
 
Solar’s viability is location specific. It’s fairly common were I live. It helps if you have 1:1 net metering from the power company. Solar as an investment is long term and the average house is sold every 5-7 years.

I got it because I expect to stay in my house and it’s a hedge against rising costs long term. My house has a large roof that is ideal for it and faces the right direction.

So much of the sales pitch is murky because specifics vary depending upon location. You need the actual details to figure out whether it’s worth it or not.

My secondary reason for getting it was that with a battery it can make it possible to run a generator for much longer in a grid down situation.
 
A local solar company sold a lot of units over about 10 years including several Amish businesses. After a good run of success, the solar operation was sold and GUESS WHAT? Sales began falling steadily. Seems the original owner pretty much saturated the market and bailed at a very fortuitous moment.
FWIW there's a plan for a 160 acre 'solar farm' to be built 40 miles away. Shoehorns nicely with the wind farm in the same area. :unsure:
 
Tunica Mississippi has a wind farm going up now , I drove past a couple of weeks ago and counted at least 30 of the turbines or whatever you call them
 
Long ago I came to the conclusion that for my purposes an A/C system to "save" money or "sell surplus" power to Florida Power and Light was impractical. I could not justify the cost / benefit especially since going over 2-3KW would mandate the destruction of my tile roof and potential for a MAJOR expense should it fail due to the solar array being mounted there. My current solar panels are fastened to a south facing windowless second story attic wall.

So I focused on supplying DC power to exterior perimeter, culture lighting, attic ventilation, water features, emergency charge stations for phones, and even a power station for DC cooling fans etc. and back up power for my surveillance and alarm systems. To that end for me anyway my 1KW solar system is a blessing.

Even as it is, I'm going to be embarking on my third system upgrade in the last 12 years and between batteries, panel upgrades, combiner / cable repairs and a new charge controller it's not cheap. I'd HATE to rely on someone else to upgrade and maintain my system.

If anyone is considering solar power it REALLY pays to flesh out what they're wanting to do well before jumping on it.

Below are my last system components just before going live to the battery array and the back yard lighting . I hope to have the new charge controller cabinet installed in a few weeks.

solar_controller_cab_fin.jpgsolar_combiner_fin.jpg yard_night_rgb1.jpg
 
My utility does an energy sharing agreement, where they "bank" every kilowatt your system produces for the grid, and you get them back at 1/1 during the time your system isn't producing energy, like at night, or not producing enough for your usage, like in the shorter winter days. Every years end, any power still in your "account" is kept by the utility, and you begin again.

There are a LOT of things to consider before buying anything.

Most systems won't produce anything you will be able to use in the event of a power outage. This is because some poor guy downstream (electrically) from your home working on downed power lines could be electrocuted from the power your system is still generating. Therefore, in order to have emergency power in a power outage, you must buy an "islanded" system that includes a storage battery(s) and an inverter that senses the grid tie is down and shuts off any power from your system to the grid. Batteries are expensive, but a large enough bank could power your home for weeks of power outage, even allowing you to live off grid if you chose, though you might need to conserve more.

If you have suitable land, a ground mount rack system for your panels is a great alternative to roof mounting, but again the racks are more expensive than roof racks. The benefits are no damage to your roof, and the ability to easily clean them for maximum efficiency. Any maintenance is also greatly simplified.

I priced just such a system, 17.6KW with 4 x 5KW batteries and ground mounting. 44 x 400 watt panels.
The price included help with grant writing, installation, and any required maintenance or replacement (both parts and labor) for the full 25 year life expectancy of the system. Also remote monitoring by the company, as the equipment uses individual micro inverters for each panel (44 total) that can be checked and monitored by them, and you, using smart phone apps. If any part starts to show a loss of output, the system reads it, isolates it, and identifies the part needing service or replacement. Theoretically it will produce 105% of my electrical consumption based on a year's worth of bills from the power company. The cost? ONLY $ 74,200 dollars.

So, is it worth it? Depends. I plan on living here for the next 25 years. Hopefully. ;)

There is a 30% federal tax credit - a dollar for dollar credit - off the top of the system. You can use it over the course of five years.

On top of that, since I own a rural small business, I can apply for a federal REAP grant. If approved, it pays for 25% of the cost of the system, paid to me in cash. Only drawback is that it counts as income on your income tax.

Also, again because of my small rural business, I can use accelerated depreciation over 5 years, very useful for minimizing property tax adjustments to the property, which don't kick in for the first five years after the system is installed anyway.

So, 30% off in tax incentive = $22,260.00
A 25% grant could equal another 18,550.00
That's $40,810.00 off the cost of $74,200.00, making the net price of $33,390.00.
And that's before counting the savings on accelerated depreciation.

So, what's the ROI? I pay about 3K a year for power now. At current rates, something to think hard about.
If the left stays in power, and everything goes electric using alternative energy sources, electricity rates are bound to skyrocket. But right now, presuming I could get the grant, I'd be looking at a little over 11 years for ROI.
If I didn't get the grant, I would be looking at a net cost of $51,940.00. At current rates, it would be 17.3 years for ROI. But, both of those numbers are based on current rates. As rates go up, ROI happens faster - maybe much faster. Or slower, depending on whether the system provides the energy as advertised/quoted.

I don't need a loan, and this was the cash price quoted to me. I wouldn't consider doing this with a loan.

I look at it as paying for my electricity bill up front for the next many years, with the peace of mind that I will have power even when none of my neighbors do, and will have the ability to disconnect from the grid entirely should I so choose. And it won't be dependent on a fuel supply. I'm seriously thinking about it...
 
Buying solar panels can be a good choice for saving money and helping the environment, but it's important to understand what you're signing up for. Many people are pushed into loans or leases that can lead to unexpected costs, just like in Mary Ann's case. It's often better to buy your own panels outright and from a reliable seller like solar panels cork, as it avoids these complicated financial agreements. This way, you own the panels and can benefit from savings without long-term debt. Always read the fine print and ask questions before making a decision.
 
We have 65 panels on our barn whuch sits in the middle of an open field and gets sun from daylight to dark. Our panels generate about $1200 worth of electricity per month and after 2 years have paid off half their original investment. They are direct grid tied since we have a whole house generator already. The whole "tax break" thing was horse!@#$, the IRS audited us over it and tried to force us to repay the credit we got. It became a huge hassle, we sent them all the design plans, the bills and the proof of payment but of course that was not good enough. We had to get a notarized letter from the company President that the panels were installed plus copies of the companies invoices and receipts of payment. Then to top that off they expected us to pay almost $6000 in fees we did not owe because they had to "investigate" our claim. Our accountant is still sorting it out.

At our previous farm we had panels on the roof and a battery bank (came with the home). The place was pretty remote and lost power regularly. The system worked quite well and as long as we were conservstive with our useage it more than met our needs during 3 or 4 day outages. Any longer than that and we had to fire up a gas generator.
 
I have found that many of those that own solar will not admit, or dont know, they are losing. Sure their bill is down and they get a check from the power company in the summer, but they do not realize those payments vs total monetary output shows a loss. My sister has solar, just installed, she needs a new part which is unavailable so she missed out on the summer season of generating power.
 
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