Serious question about instructing/coaching

[Phoenix too]

As some know I'm an instructor and coach in the 'art' of rifle shooting. I hold a weekly session at the club, primarily for kids. Today I had a challenge which I fear I didn't handle well.

The subject has some pretty severe learning issues, but seems to be a pretty easy-going kid. He's qualified on the club's 200-yard range. In our 50' range, from a bench rest, he just about puts holes in holes, certainly no trouble putting five shots into a 50' rifle target. I have another kid who is at about the same level. Last week I got 'S' to get up off the bench rest and shoot off hand. It was a severe comedown, but he got better and better, until he got tired and the last three groups of 5 opened up considerably. 'R', on the other hand, didn't want to give up the bench. He took five shoots and didn't respond at all favorably to the very scattered result. I then discussed what he should do to improve his results. I think he took one shot out of the second set and said, "I'm done." We talked a bit about how one improves one's skills, moving out of one's comfort zone, etc, but he wasn't buying.

I figure next time I'll let him do some from the bench, and then see if I can get him to some standing, maybe moving the target closer...

Suggestions? I really don't know what else to do. Thank you!

 

[jack]

Be patient. Follow your instincts. It will all work out. Thanks for taking time to pay attention to some of our young people. They will always remember what you did for them.

 

[Mobuck]

Sounds like my Grandson-attitude wise. "I want it my way and refuse to attempt anything else." He'd be satisfied to shoot all day at an 8" gong at 25 yards from the bench. That's wasting time and ammo and doesn't teach him anything. I understand a few shots at a large close target just for giggles but not 50 shots.
Depending on the capacity of the students to reason and understand the goals, a reward for cooperation might help. One time Grandson wasn't listening and following my instructions, I simply picked up the remaining ammo and left him sitting at the bench with an empty rifle-no reward for "doing your own thing" at the range.

 

[Kevin]

What about starting off slow like the last shot in the group standing. So 4 at the bench 1 standing. Or have some sort of friendly competition between them with a small prize given only for the standing shots?

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Gee, whiz, folks . . . they're kids. They have short attention spans, and their reasons for being involved in shooting are very likely different from yours.

What are you trying to accomplish? Creating junior snipers for induction into the military or getting them acquainted with the fun of shooting for its own sake? No single game plan will work for all kids. I was the instructor for the NRA junior basic .22 rifle course for many, many years as well as leader of the junior rifle club that accepted "graduates" of the training course. This was all done with the attitude that we wanted the kids to ENJOY themselves while learning proper firearms safety and marksmanship, not regiment them into our view of a "proper" template.

Some kids are competitive enough to place emphasis on developing accuracy and detailed "good form" while others just wanna shoot and enjoy the thing along with the camaraderie of the fellow shooters . . . just like all of us. We catered to each of the kids as their attitudes indicated, offering suggestions where indicated but not attempting to force "compliance".

That was all over forty years ago, and to this day I still occasionally hear from some of my "kids" who now have kids (and grandkids) of their own and wish they could find a club that dealt with kids as we did.

And as far as I'm concerned, if a kid just wants to ding the plate or puncture pop cans all afternoon, that's not a waste of ammo, that's just good fun . . . and it keeps 'em shooting as they grow up. We need all the new blood we can get.

JMHO

 

[DGW1949]

As some know I'm an instructor and coach in the 'art' of rifle shooting. I hold a weekly session at the club, primarily for kids. Today I had a challenge which I fear I didn't handle well.

The subject has some pretty severe learning issues, but seems to be a pretty easy-going kid. He's qualified on the club's 200-yard range. In our 50' range, from a bench rest, he just about puts holes in holes, certainly no trouble putting five shots into a 50' rifle target. I have another kid who is at about the same level. Last week I got 'S' to get up off the bench rest and shoot off hand. It was a severe comedown, but he got better and better, until he got tired and the last three groups of 5 opened up considerably. 'R', on the other hand, didn't want to give up the bench. He took five shoots and didn't respond at all favorably to the very scattered result. I then discussed what he should do to improve his results. I think he took one shot out of the second set and said, "I'm done." We talked a bit about how one improves one's skills, moving out of one's comfort zone, etc, but he wasn't buying.

I figure next time I'll let him do some from the bench, and then see if I can get him to some standing, maybe moving the target closer...

Suggestions? I really don't know what else to do. Thank you!

Different shooters have different mindsets, regardless of age.
Some are (and will remain) very content to shoot off a bag and measure sucess with a ruler. In my experience, ya aint going to be able to teach what we call "rifle craft" to anyone (of any age) who fits into that catergory because.....they do not have the desire to learn....because it simply aint important to them.

And that's OK too....They are what they are, so as long as they're being safe and having fun, it aint nothing to beat yourself up about.

DGW

 

[contender]

As a BSA scout & now a scouter, with over 45 years in my Troop, I have seen a lot of this. Not just in shooting.
Some kids have not been introduced to any failure. They have it easy, and want to do it only the way they can succeed. While there is no challenge in what they do, they get praises for the good they have done so far. They do not want it to change.
A lot will depend upon the kids attitude. If he can not accept the challenge to try & do better, he will not be a good student.
Maybe a discussion with his parents & say he is not wanting to follow the class as it's designed. Maybe you need to figure out a way to make him challenge himself. And maybe in all this, he can learn that failure is a part of success.
Hard to figure out what to do without a lot of serious study & input.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Kids will pursue and get involved with things that interest them . . . things that have appeal to them and look interesting from their perspective. Some will like bicycles, some will like skateboards, some will like fishing, some will like computers . . . whatever turn's 'em on. Why do we feel it is necessary to like EVERYTHING and see a lack of interest in any particular endeavor as "failure". All we can really do is EXPOSE them to these things, and if they take to any of them, great. I'm interested in many things and have pursued them. There're also a whole world of things I've investigated and decided weren't my style. Am I thus a "failure"? If so, so are all of those who do not pursue and excel at EVERYTHING.

All too often I've seen fathers (usually) who desperately want their boy to BE A MAN and excel at firearms when the kid simply has no interest. This never ends well. The kid resents it and cannot be FORCED to be a proficient shooter. Waste of everybody's time, and a big cause of resentment between father and son (or daughter, occasionally).

We are not drill instructors nor are these kids draftees to be "molded" into our image of a "serious shooter". Our best approach is to present the material and let the kid utilize it as he/she sees fit so long as good safety discipline is maintained. If we accomplish nothing more than letting the kids discover the shooting activities as a hobby and make sure they are fully aware of and conversant in the proper handling of firearms we have done a good thing. This isn't about "success or failure" on our part, either.

JMHO

 

[Dave P.]

Find em something to shoot at that breaks, blows up or falls down.
Need some kind of "reactive" targets.
I'd rather watch paint dry then shoot at little round black
circles all afternoon.
Dave

 

[Pat-inCO]

Gee, whiz, folks . . . they're kids. They have short attention spans, and their reasons for being involved in shooting are very likely different from yours.

If their attention span is that short, they should not be at the range.

The idea is to get them to . . . learn . . . while having fun. The more fun,
the faster they will learn. To refuse to try, is to not learn.

I'm with one previous post where when non compliance was experienced,
the ammunition was no longer there. That is incentive. Do they need to
have "only" the new item/material? No, not at all. You do need to mix in
new with more fun successful exercises, but to allow them to dictate
what is done is to pre-dispose them to ultimate failure.

A portion of the range time is to learn to follow instructions. Did anyone
with a child or grand-child let them stop with "keep it pointed in a safe
direction"? NO. It's the same thing now.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Agreed that the individual kid's attention span must be taken into account. We offered the preliminary, basic "training program" every year in the fall for kids from eight to thirteen. As might be expected, some were not ready to handle the concentration required, but this was not necessarily age-related. Some of the eight-year-olds were on the ball and some of the thirteen-year-olds were not. We gently let those not ready leave the program, explaining to their parents why. We had few problems. We'd usually see them again next year, with improved attitudes.

There's a difference between "following instructions" and being subjected to "drill sergeant" domination. If kids are eased into the proper procedures they will absorb them willingly. If you feel you must force-feed them indoctrination, you're not getting them on the right page. They have to WANT to learn this stuff, and if you make it unpleasant it will simply turn them off. Then you've lost them.

This should not be about "r'spec mah 'thority" but demonstrating the material and explaining why the rules are important. Of course one does not stop with one point, not if you're doing the job right. It's an ongoing process of repetitive reinforcement that makes the proper handling and shooting procedures become second nature . . . and fun.

 

[Bob Wright]

If I were you, I'd start students from anything but from the bench. My instruction as I remember was shooting from the several positions, standing, kneeling, squatting, sitting and prone. I don't recall ever having instruction shooting from a bench.

And, as has been pointed out, more interesting targets. My favorite was Prince Albert tobacco tins, turned edgeways. Ice cubes make great targets. I now see targets being sold that jump, flip, or roll when hit. Anything that generates interest while learning to shoot.

Bob Wright

 

[powder smoke]

Shooters mature get better at different paces. Pressuring a young shooter
may not obtain results got to keep it enjoyable everyone has good and bad days.
Coach is someone who guides a person and teaches, keep it light enjoyable
take a break if it gets intense. If it is fun and safe you did your job. Not every
kid will be a marksman, and that is not a reflection on the coach. Just Life. ps

 

[Phoenix too]

Lots of good thoughts, thank you.

I think one of the issues is that he struggles in lots of areas, but the idea of 5 holes in a target that can be easily covered with a dime is his measure of success. Anything that takes away from that he looks upon as just another of his failures. His first 5 off-hand were scattered over something near to 3 x 6 inches. I could certainly try other positions, but I have no reason to think he'd be more accepting of them, either.

This last class he was the only one present, and I confess to feeling a bit resentful that he had no issues with taking up my time, but wanting no part of my advice. He could do the very same thing without me, as his family are members. I get my jollies by helping people learn, so burning up my time, and making no effort to 'improve' (from my, and his Father's vantage points), well it ain't fun for me. With multiple kids I may not be able to structure things in our range to enable him to shoot from a bench, which is another reason I'd like to see him make the jump.

As far as using different targets, we've got some pretty strict rules with respect to targets used on the club ranges, but I'll look into that.

Thanks again for your thoughts and suggestions.

PS: I'm not a drill instructor, and certainly am not about to get into an argument or force a kid to do it 'my way'. Not my style. That's why I got thrown out of the boy scouts, and no way am I going to do that to a kid.

 

[Mobuck]

"Find em something to shoot at that breaks, blows up or falls down.
Need some kind of "reactive" targets."

We did finally find something to challenge the Grandsons later last summer. The garden produced buckets of little fist-sized gourds. Those "poofed" very nicely even with the 22lr and were basically free for the picking. Most public ranges wouldn't allow such targets.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

This last class he was the only one present, and I confess to feeling a bit resentful that he had no issues with taking up my time, but wanting no part of my advice. He could do the very same thing without me, as his family are members. I get my jollies by helping people learn, so burning up my time, and making no effort to 'improve' (from my, and his Father's vantage points), well it ain't fun for me. With multiple kids I may not be able to structure things in our range to enable him to shoot from a bench, which is another reason I'd like to see him make the jump.

Now I'm curious. Why is the kid in your "class" in the first place?

Is it because his parents insist on it?

Is he there of his own volition?

If, as you say, he could just shoot on his own because his parents are members and you don't feel that he's interested in learning anything new, could you suggest he drop the "class" and go his own way? As a side benefit, this might initiate a conversation with/between the kid and his parents and you about the situation. If you truly feel your time is wasted on the kid there's no real good reason to continue in this manner.

Not trying to be snarky here. I've had some kids who simply weren't "in the zone" on shooting and I understand your concern and frustration. Good luck.

:mrgreen:

 

[Bear Paw Jack]

Find em something to shoot at that breaks, blows up or falls down.
Need some kind of "reactive" targets.
Dave

Everyone (especially young kids) need a break at some point. You can only be serious for so long. Maybe shoot at a drink bottle. Instead of standing up, laying down so they are shooting at the cap. Who ever does the best gets a drink. Nothing more than a little change up. Helps us all.
Phoenix, thanks for your help with these young people.

 

[bobski]

paint the bench. mark it wet paint. make them stand.

 

[bobski]

or use this...show him an old guy with no jacket, no glove, 50yds, with a tube fed semi and a 1x scope, in his pajamas.....doing it. yeah thats me.
next pic will be my wife doing it offhand. that ought to movtivate him!

 

[Bear Paw Jack]

As has been said in different ways, it's got to be fun too.

Good example of fun here: http://www.chonday.com/Videos/sowmoghy2