Vern for $750 dollars you could buy 3 kel tec PF9's. If you had a problem with one of them you could send it back & still have 2 to carry while they were fixing the first one. Or you could just buy 2 & have $250 left for ammo and a holster etc.
Search for a sub 9 is scary...What does Ruger know?
- Thread starter Verndog
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Specs
Single-Sixer
Mike J said:
When Ruger came out with the LC9 I made the decision to sell my PF9 even though it had never had a problem. Why? Because I was reluctant to shoot it much because of the many ongoing problems KT has with the little beast. If you can't rely on it to perform and last a few thousand rounds of practice, then it has little value. I keep reading about the shooters with 300 rounds through them and then they begin to malfunction. I know, KT makes good on all of the problems generally, but will they be there with a functioning PF9 when mine fails and I am in trouble? Trust is everything in an SD piece.
My strategy for now will be to find an LCR357 and shoot it until I bleed. Later this year I will perhaps buy the LC9 if it proves out. I can buy the LCR357 and the LC9 for about the same $ as the Solo, Kahr PM9, etc. I hope to have 2 reliable carry SD handguns, 1 for the truck and 1 for the pocket. Perhaps it will be 2 LCRs.
I would have liked to stay with 9mm only, but I don't see a pocket revolver in 9mm anywhere. Since I have a 357 BH Convertible I usually have some .38 and .357 mag on hand, so it's not a major problem.
Specs said:
I would much rather spend $750 on one good gun that shoots good, looks good, will outlast me, is accurate and has good CS...than three pieces of whatever that might blow out the sides at any time and take off a finger or two. I've had one kaboom (gunshow reloads) with a .40 Smith Glock 27, and it blew out the mag and blackened my hand with soot, but no damage. I picked the mag up, off the ground, put it back in (with good ammo) and continued to shoot the gun. Glocks do that.
My SWAT cop son-in-law has also decided on a LCR but in a .38 only, as it is lighter for a pocket-pistol (BUG) and the recoil with .357 is kind of a bear. Good choice...in my book. Revolvers work.
S2
Verndog
Blackhawk
Sonnytoo said:
Exactly my thoughts. My priorities are 1) Reliability 2) Accuracy and ability to keep on target 3) Comfort / looks / feel (appeal) 4) Cost.
I'd rather not spend the $750.00, but certainly will if 1-3 warrants it.
Specs
Single-Sixer
I like the idea of extra weight and strength due to the steel in the 357 mag LCR. I will probably end up carrying some hot 38s, but maybe a lighter 357 could work too. All I need to do now is find one locally, don't really like the idea buying it sight unseen..
The LC9 is a wait and see proposition, not in any hurry to get one unless it falls into my lap at a bargain.
When I bought the KT PF9 I thought that perhaps it would be OK, but I just could not warm up to it even though it was the latest model with all of the improvenents done at the factory before I bought it new.
The LC9 is a wait and see proposition, not in any hurry to get one unless it falls into my lap at a bargain.
When I bought the KT PF9 I thought that perhaps it would be OK, but I just could not warm up to it even though it was the latest model with all of the improvenents done at the factory before I bought it new.
gb6491
Single-Sixer
The wear on the front of the poly rails in that photo could easily be caused by being less than careful when installing the slide. That said, I don't think the wear will impede the function of the pistol; the poly rails serve no function other than being guides to assist with installation of the slide. It's a shame that the person who made the quoted post never followed up on his situation; seems that was his first and last post on KT with no activity since then.Verndog said:waterwolf said:
Maybe so, and I'd love to be able to even LOOK at a Kahr PM. All else aside, this is the second local gun shop that has dropped the Kahr line, and I have yet to be able to locate one to see for myself. I'll consider that a sign of what is not meant to be, there are other options. And I seriously doubt they sent back perfectly working guns with minor "flaking", but that's just an opinion.
BTW is this the type of "flaking" you are talking about? Also note post #8 is seeing the same issue!
http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=817
[/url]
Followed by this post.
Regards,
Greg
Verndog
Blackhawk
gb6491 said:
OK but there is evidence this is a potential problem as reported by the range here. And if the design is truly "metal on metal" and not "metal on poly" then how are these rails getting "shaved"???
More evidence of this being the case...
http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbull...-sticking.-Why&p=183156&viewfull=1#post183156
gb6491
Single-Sixer
Here's a link detailing (including photos) the "metal on metal" of Kahr's rail system in poly guns: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=765313Verndog said:
My guess about some guns having poly shaving (other than previously illustrated) is that there is some bulging of the poly frame in those areas. I imagine the flaking will most likely cease once the poly wears to a certain point.
The link you just posted would seem to affirm this. The OP noted that his pistol operates without failure when firing it and that his issue is during dis-assembly. I'm guessing that the poly rails are bulged causing the slide to bind when he is removing it; especially if he is canting the slide once it's past the metal rails.
Regards,
Greg
Rice-n-Beans said:
I think the gun reviewers, i.e. Duke Venturino et al, do a pretty good job. I've read Duke before where he made a general statement for us to read between the lines. Recently, I read the following:
1) shot all commercial 115gr and 124gr ammo without fail. They also tested 147gr; didn't comment on it.
2) had a preproduction gun that still had a few imperfections that would, of course, be ironed out prior to public offering. OF COURSE.
In business and in all of our jobs, the bottom line rules. The mags are paid by the commercial big-guys to write up their guns in as good a light as possible...or even better. The reviewer screws it up, the magazine loses that business, the reviewer may lose his job, the magazine will eventually go out of business.
So just read between the lines. Most writers are pretty good guys and they'll generally give you a hint of problem areas. And besides, if you buy an early production gun, you can expect gray areas. I know this; I did it; I sold the gun after Service and I finally got it running.
S2
Verndog
Blackhawk
gb6491 said:
Thank you for posting the link, and I now see why they are saying it is not on steel rails. I believe this is more in the definition. What I see is more like metal "pads" that are seperated out on each rail corner and offer no additional lateral strength. The metal rail as seen in pic 2 on the SR9 is a full width insert that spans the width of the gun, which would greatly increase the lateral strength of the rails, and be far less susceptible to slight frame warp and manufacturing variance. By design, it's easy to see which offers superior strength.
gb6491
Single-Sixer
The SR9 construction does look quite stout, but then again, that's pretty much a Ruger tradition. 
In regards to the Kahr rails, they seem to be steel channel sections that are molded into the poly. As such, they span the width of the pistol and should offer additional lateral strength at those points. Note: above I say "they seem to be steel channel sections..." I say "seem" becuase I've never actually seen a dissected Kahr frame. I base my supposition on what I've read and what I've tested using a magnet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0CTP0iidUU
Regards,
Greg
In regards to the Kahr rails, they seem to be steel channel sections that are molded into the poly. As such, they span the width of the pistol and should offer additional lateral strength at those points. Note: above I say "they seem to be steel channel sections..." I say "seem" becuase I've never actually seen a dissected Kahr frame. I base my supposition on what I've read and what I've tested using a magnet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0CTP0iidUU
Regards,
Greg
Verndog
Blackhawk
gb6491 said:The SR9 construction does look quite stout, but then again, that's pretty much a Ruger tradition.
In regards to the Kahr rails, they seem to be steel channel sections that are molded into the poly. As such, they span the width of the pistol and should offer additional lateral strength at those points. Note: above I say "they seem to be steel channel sections..." I say "seem" becuase I've never actually seen a dissected Kahr frame. I base my supposition on what I've read and what I've tested using a magnet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0CTP0iidUU
Regards,
Greg
OK then, looks can be deceiving, cant argue that test. Good job and thanks for pointing that out. From there one would really have to blue up the frame at all posible contact spots and see just where the slide is rubbing to find if indeed it's all metal to metal or possibly there is enough lateral movement along the stroke to hit polymere along the way. On some guns it clearly is for some reason. Also it's possible that strip is thin enough to still allow frame flex during use...not sure there.
ArmedinAZ
Buckeye
Verndog said:
Is frame flex in a poly gun a bad thing? (yes if it's tearing things up :wink
Everyone has seen the high speed videos of Glock flex. Would love to see an SR9 or other poly guns in super slo-mo.
Verndog
Blackhawk
ArmedinAZ said:Verndog said:
Is frame flex in a poly gun a bad thing? (yes if it's tearing things up :wink
I haven't seen the video I'll look for it. My guess is the flex is more of a front to rear bow then a twist? A twist type flex would be far worse on these 4 point rail designs. Also the bow type flex would explain why the rear rails are much narrower, less likely to bind.
Edit--video added-- Cool!! Thanks for pointing that out. It bounces like a diving board. :shock:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4MdYrwUU0E
Cheesewhiz
Hunter
gb6491 said:The wear on the front of the poly rails in that photo could easily be caused by being less than careful when installing the slide. That said, I don't think the wear will impede the function of the pistol; the poly rails serve no function other than being guides to assist with installation of the slide. It's a shame that the person who made the quoted post never followed up on his situation; seems that was his first and last post on KT with no activity since then.Verndog said:waterwolf said:
Maybe so, and I'd love to be able to even LOOK at a Kahr PM. All else aside, this is the second local gun shop that has dropped the Kahr line, and I have yet to be able to locate one to see for myself. I'll consider that a sign of what is not meant to be, there are other options. And I seriously doubt they sent back perfectly working guns with minor "flaking", but that's just an opinion.
BTW is this the type of "flaking" you are talking about? Also note post #8 is seeing the same issue!
http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=817
[/url]
Followed by this post.
Regards,
Greg
Greg, no slam on you at all but this post was the last with the pic shown.
If that gun was a Ruger, you would have at least 10 people screaming bloody murder on here about what a crappy gun Ruger makes.
Its interesting that an inexpensive gun that, sure had some teething problems when it came out, but is top notch now, is a gun people will get rid of just because they "think they may have problems in the future"... And all the while they contemplate a gun that has documented hit or miss issues, or a brand new unproven gun. :roll:
I suspect that if a kel-tec PF9 cost $500 instead of $280, people wouldn't be so quick to dump them when they haven't had any problems... people for some reason feel better when they pay more, even if they arent getting any more for their money or at least, not as much more as they are paying for...
I havent had mine long enough to feel comfortable making a call one way or the other, but have so far had 0 problems with the gun...
I suspect that if a kel-tec PF9 cost $500 instead of $280, people wouldn't be so quick to dump them when they haven't had any problems... people for some reason feel better when they pay more, even if they arent getting any more for their money or at least, not as much more as they are paying for...
I havent had mine long enough to feel comfortable making a call one way or the other, but have so far had 0 problems with the gun...
Specs
Single-Sixer
dacaur said:
Since I am the fool who sold his KT PF9 before it broke, perhaps I should explain once again. The gun in general (not mine) is an iffy proposition at best and seems to continue to develop new problems with USE. Once again, I was reluctant to use it often or long because I did not want to get into the cycle of returning it to the mother ship and then starting over to prove to myself that it was reliable. I watched the evolution of the PF9 for more than 2 years before even thinking about buying it, and then waited about a year before buying it.
Now some manufacturers have come along and are offering what appears to be better finished pistols with similar specs, so why not pursue them? Ruger proved it's point with the LCP, so it's probably a safe bet that the new LC9 will prove worthy. My strategy is simple, sell it while it's in demand and in good shape because soon there will be a lot of them for sale at low prices. Since I bought it low, did not use it much, and maintained it, I sold it for about a 25% profit after carrying it for 2 years and never had to get it fixed. Once again, I will reiterate that I never quite trusted it, and that lack of confidence (rightly or not) was the catalyst which led me to sell it once Ruger initroduced the LC9.
I have indicated elsewhere that I am a Ruger fan and have been waiting for them to market a pistol like the LC9. I bought the PF9 as a stop gap measure since I was sure that Ruger would join the movement.
In the interim I am replacing my PF9 with a KLCR 357, and will be watching the LC9 with great interest. Will I learn to trust the LC9 if I buy one eventually? Time will tell, but I must say that I have the confidence in Ruger which I was unable to have in Kel Tec.
BTW, congrats on your PF9, I hope it works well for you as it has for so many others.
Specs
Single-Sixer
Specs said:
Cheesewhiz
Hunter
Specs said:
Specs, where do you get off getting off the KelTec Klown Posse Express? Do you know the ramifications that you will suffer? Your secert KelTec handshake privilege will be revoked. You will have your special KelTec plastic signal whistle taken away. What about your special plastic Keltec pee-pee pants? You didn't get them yet? You should have spent more KelTec super bonus bucks. The Keltec Klown Posse is relentless. Heck, the Grand Poobah of KelTeciness might come and take a crap in your flower bed. Are you sure you want to face this awesome onslaught?
Specs
Single-Sixer
Well, I have had a couple of go 'rounds with the grand poopoos, oh, I mean poobahs from over there, and survived, so I guess my flower beds will make it. Sounds like you have been there too.
BTW, my whistle stopped working, something fell out of it and it won't blow any more.
This whole gun hobby is always a work in progress and is just the same as in coin collecting, the challenge is the hunt to upgrade your collection. Sometimes it is necessary to sort out a cull and replace it with a keeper. Sometimes a gun trade is just for fun.
BTW, my whistle stopped working, something fell out of it and it won't blow any more.
This whole gun hobby is always a work in progress and is just the same as in coin collecting, the challenge is the hunt to upgrade your collection. Sometimes it is necessary to sort out a cull and replace it with a keeper. Sometimes a gun trade is just for fun.
