Ruger and Law Enforcement?

[TN.Frank]

I look at the Ruger P-Series the same way I look at an AK, NO, they're not highly polished or have the fit and finish of a Beretta or Sig BUT they do go "bang" when you pull the trigger and are priced at what, realistically, I think the other guns should be priced at.
If it came down to getting two Rugers or one Sig I'd rather have the two Rugers. Quantity has a Quality all it's own.

 

[Kanook]

Traded my p220 for a 3screw super blackhawk. Still got my p90 though. If a firearm fits my hand and I can buy it I will. If a firearm doesn't fit my hand and I trade into it, it will be traded.

The p90 fits my hand better than the sig, so I will carry the Ruger and leave the sig for somebody else.

 

[revhigh]

BUT they do go "bang" when you pull the trigger and are priced at what, realistically, I think the other guns should be priced at.

LOL !! I think Mercedes and BMW should be priced the same as KIA too !! And before some of you guys get your panties all in a knot ... NO ... I AM NOT COMPARING RUGER TO KIA. It was just an example.

Those higher levels of quality, machining, craftsmanship, and accuracy are never free though ... in ANYTHING. No different than a Colt Python, or Freedom Arms revolver being compared to a GP100 or Super Redhawk or Blackhawk. It's just a different level of gun.

Most guns go BANG ... my requirements for a gun are a little higher than that.

REV

 

[Kanook]

Now I'm off the stupid internet phone,

I competed with a Ruger P90 and did just as good as the others. The high dollar gun guys would ask why I stayed with the Ruger, my reply was cause it works just as good as yours, why change a good thing.

When the department was all revolvers, Rugers were always in the mix, but for some reason when we switched the autos always fell short. Our officers carry their own purchase, so they have a choice. Money is tight, but they save up for a "better name" instead of a (to me) better quality. They would buy the glock beacuse of glocks rebate (so money plays a role in this).

 

[TN.Frank]

Having worked in the gun industry for McMillan Arms for a year in '89 I can say exactly what went into building a McMillan Signature Bolt Action rifle and I really don't think we/they put any more into one then Remington or Winchester but the price was a lot more.
I really don't think that a Sig should cost more then 3x that of a Ruger, don't care what kind of fit and finish they have, truth of the matter is that they're selling the name more then any extra quality that's built into the gun.
Same with BMW or Mercedes, you're buying "bragging rights" as much as anything else. Sure, they're probably better then a KIA or Hyundai but not enough to warrant a price of 4-5x more IMHO.
Of course I'm sure the employees make more money too, that's got to be factored in. The guys at Ruger in Prescott,AZ probably make min. wage up to maybe $15/hr while the guns over in Europe making Sigs make twice or three times as much in wages.
At the end of the day I'd rather have 2 or 3 less expensive, reliable guns that I can trust rather then one more expensive reliable gun. :wink:

 

[Meeko]

I am a Lead Firearms instructor in the Federal Bureau of Prisons. For those that do not know Ruger P95 DAO is the general issued handgun for the Federal Bureau of Prisons. BOP used P89 DAO from around 1994 until recently. In 2000 ish Beretta 92D Vertec was it however a couple years ago Ruger got the contract back with the P95 DAO. Let me just say from an instructor stand point for BOP Rugers are the worst guns we could have for general issue. Now let me explain.

I am in no way slamming Ruger it's just they are not the best gun for general issue for several reasons. Most LE agencies with the exceptions of Special Teams are very limited on range training time. Some only qualify once a year. First the trigger pull. All our Rugers are DAO so every pull is 17 lbs. That is way to heavy. A lot of my shooters are small statured females that have zero upperbody strength. They have issues with both the trigger (which the powers that be from FLETC have deemed it accecptable to teach/allow 2 fingers on the trigger for that reason because of how heavy it is. WTH) working the slide because with a Ruger you have a 19lb recoil spring then factor in the 17 LB trigger and thats 36 LBs they have to work and although most of us no biggie you should have to watch that attempted by some folks. Glocks and S&W M&P's are easier to teach on because of easy trigger pulls (sights stay lined up) and you are only fighting the recoil spring when you cycle the slide (no hammer spring)

Then the ambi mag release is another gripe of mine. Although a great concept right handed shooters have a tendacy to hit the mag release button on the right side with their strong hand middle finger during recoil and mags drop out left and right.

Most of us have jumped up and down to try to get more training time but the administration does not care because they do not have to deal with it. In a perfect world we would have more training time but I am convienced that wouldn't work since in BOP all our staff have to qualify but few ever touch a gun except for qualification which we instructors hate because it's like the first time they ever picked it up again and don't get me started on the 870!

That is the main reason most LE agencies use Glocks, M&P's etc they are easier to teach/use etc in a short ammount of time.

Again not slamming Rugers they are good guns but they do take a little more training and as an LE trainer you would be surprised at how many folks we get in that have ZERO gun experience, not their fault but we are instructors not miricle workers and when we are not given time to teach them it's a loose loose situation sometimes. I won't even get into the qualification course just for employment. Trips is another thing but just for employment is a joke and it all goes back to the Ruger.

 

[revhigh]

I really don't think that a Sig should cost more then 3x that of a Ruger

Same with BMW or Mercedes, you're buying "bragging rights" as much as anything else.

Regarding your first point above .... there are literally MILLIONS of private owners, LE agencies, and military orgs that would strongly disagree that the added cost is not very much worth it.

About your second point ... that is simply ludicrous. I'm guessing you haven't yet been exposed to higher level items very often. By your logic .... anything more than the base brand and/or model of almost anything is simply for bragging. Simply not true at all. Many people who proclaim things like the above simply cannot afford the higher level item, and say things like the above to justify not owning them, even to the point of mocking or criticizing those who DO own them. Not saying this is your situation, but it can easily come across that way.

Why do you own Rugers and not own a Jennings or Lorcin or HiPoint gun? Did you just buy 'bragging rights' buying the more expensive Ruger? It's funny how some people tend to see anything above what THEY OWN as being 'unnecessary, not worth it, or bragging' ...

REV

 

[carbonyl]

Hope you've refilled your blood pressure medicine. :wink: :wink: :wink:

 

[96/44]

Glock sells their pistols to LE agencies for about half of what they sell them to the public for. Then they market them to the public as "the choice of law enforcement". Ruger seems to have no problem selling everything they produce, so it wouldn't make much sense to try to make a big push for government contracts, when they can hardly keep up with current orders. In the past, they actually had a separate Ruger law enforcement division, but they seem to be focusing on the general public at this point.

 

[revhigh]

Glock sells their pistols to LE agencies for about half of what they sell them to the public for. Then they market them to the public as "the choice of law enforcement".

Actually, I know an armorer LEO for a large NJ town, and his dept uses all Glock handguns. They pay way more than half of what consumers pay. A regular run of the mill Glock goes for about $500 to a consumer. His department pays between $375 and $400 for a std Glock. Where Glock excels is in their armorer training, support, and parts availability. That takes quite an infrastructure. They also offer great trade in values if an upgrade is desired. To say nothing of the fact that they ARE incredibly reliable weapons, and they all are pretty much identical with very little variance between examples. They truly are very simply built guns, and that means a lot
When you're dealing with 80-100 of them.

All of these factors contribute to Glock's success with LEOs. It's WAY more thn they're just 'cheap'.

REV

 

[TN.Frank]

Actually if you join GSSF(Glock Sport Shooting Foundation) for a 2 year membership you get a Certificate that will let you purchase a Glock handgun at the LEO discount price. I picked up a Glock G26 in January of 2010 with my certificate and got it for $485 out the door. That's $425 for the gun plus tax and TIC's fee.
As far as "high end" cars go, I almost bought a BMW once. When I found out that the Alt. had to have a cooling fan or it'd burn out I passed. Any car that's that picky about stuff isn't a car that I think would hold up very well.
My V8 conversion '96 Chevy S-10, on the other hand is very durable and If I could get a set of new tires on it and a LSD rear axle in it I'd put it up against any BMW on the block in the 1/8th mile and probably stomp the crap out of the poor little car. :mrgreen:
I like things simple, rugged and reliable and if they ever do need work I like them to be easy enough to fix that it's something that I can do. That's why I liked my Glock G19 and that's why I like Rugers. Sure, if I had $700-$1000 that I didn't need I"d love to have a Sig P228 but then I'd probably own it for a few months and end up selling it because I'd beat myself up over having that much into a single gun when I could have used that amount of money to buy two or three guns that would serve me just as well.
Good enough is good enough and spending more on better isn't really any better in my opinion. Get enough and be happy that you have something and don't beat yourself up over it not being "top of the line" as long as it works fine for your needs.
Jennings or Lorcin or HiPoint ARE NOT Good Enough, they're junk made out of zinc alloy and will not hold up so comparing a Ruger to one of those is simply ridiculous. It'd be like comparing my Chevy to a Yugo, they're not even in the same league. Now if you want to compare my Chevy to a Ford or Dodge then we can talk but to bring up something so vastly inferior as a Lorcin and compare it to a Ruger saying it's just as good, well, you really need to do more research on firearms there pard because it's just not the case. :roll:

 

[revhigh]

I never once said a Jennings was as good as a Ruger. Rugers are better than Jennings. Sigs are better than Rugers.

But the fact is that they ALL go BANG. Why would you tie up all the money in a Ruger when you could have 2 or 3 HiPoints? How come your logic applies only if you're talking about guns that are more expensive than the ones that YOU own?

The HiPoint owner could make the exact same argument that you make about Sigs about your Ruger.

To be honest .... I've shot several HiPoints, and while they're big and clunky .... they work just fine.

You passed on a given car because it's alternator had a cooling fan .... Really. ?

REV

 

[carbonyl]

If they made a pistol as small and concealable as an SR9c I'd probably have two or three Hi Points instead.....but they don't.

 

[TN.Frank]

I'm prejudice against Hi-Points because they're UGLY. :twisted: Why would I want a Ruger for $300 when I could have two Hi-Points for the same money, because IMHO Ruger is one of the least expensive QUALITY guns that you can buy. Sure, you can spend 2-3 times as much on a Sig but are you really getting 3 times the quality? I don't think so even thought I know from owning a couple Sigs that they are nice guns, have an excellent DA trigger and a very nice fit and finish I still don't feel any more well armed with one then I do with the P95 that's sitting my my drawer right now.
I personally think that all of the Plastic guns are pretty much equal when it comes to putting lead downrange be it Ruger, Glock, Springfield Armour, Smith & Wesson, Sig(yes, they've got a few plastic guns on the market) H&K or Beretta. They're all just as good at doing the job no matter which one you pick. Some do it in a different way then others(striker fired vs hammer fired, rotating barrel vs tilting lock up, DAO vs SA/DA vs Safe Action) but it's all apples to apples.
In the last couple three years I've owned a Glock G26, Beretta 92F Compact, Beretta PX4 Storm, ATI 1911a1, Walther PK380, Springfield Armory XD45, Glock G30, Glock G19 and now a Ruger P95 and I've never felt undergunned with any of em'. They all worked equally as well as the others, put lead on target when I did my part and would have worked equally as well to defend my life with as my current Ruger P95. With the exception of the Walther PK380 they all cost more but really didn't offer more IMHO.
Like I said before, Good Enough is GOOD ENOUGH, no need to spend more to get the same job done with spending less will do it just as well.

 

[revhigh]

If they made a pistol as small and concealable as an SR9c I'd probably have two or three Hi Points instead.....but they don't.

LOL! You're right ... they don't.

At least you're honest, and obviously get what I'm alluding to.

There's always somebody below you .... that likes what you consider 'junk' .... and people above you .... that consider what you have to be 'junk'.


REV

 

[TN.Frank]

There is a certain price point at which you get a serviceable, reliable handgun. Below that you get something that at best would be questionable and at worse would be total unreliable junk. Above that price point you get a bit better fit and finish, maybe a bit more accuracy and a NAME that you can brag about but nothing really that makes it a better choice to self defense. I've owned Sigs, Glocks, Rugers, Springfield Armory, Beretta and they're all good guns but right now with my financial situation I feel that I'm just as well armed with my Ruger and with any higher priced gun and to me that's all that matters. I wouldn't trust a Hi-Point or Jennings(owned one many, many years ago and it was totally unreliable and broke after just a few rounds) but if you'd trust your life to one then more power to ya'. I loved my Glock G19 but needed funds to help pay property taxes so it went bye bye and now I have a Ruger P95 and I'm just as happy with it to tell ya' the truth.

 

[ozark777]

BUT they do go "bang" when you pull the trigger and are priced at what, realistically, I think the other guns should be priced at.

LOL !! I think Mercedes and BMW should be priced the same as KIA too !! And before some of you guys get your panties all in a knot ... NO ... I AM NOT COMPARING RUGER TO KIA.

REV

My Kia is no Lexus, but definitely outperforms its competition "for the money" like my Rugers do!

 

[usmcvet0331]

I've been a cop for 21 years and carried a Glock 23/22 for most of that time with a Sig 229/226 in. 40 for three or four years in between, new chief I own four pistols my 1992 G23 a G27 a MKII and MakIII and I have my Dept issued G22. I've never owed a Ruger fighting gun I have lookedbat the new Rivers but honesty iblikenhavijg all one platform and one caliber mybguns take the same mags,ammo and holsters I know and trust them multiply me by the other coos and there us huge brand loyalty I love my Ruger rifles,shotguns and. 22 pistols I did look at the S&W M&P's and would consider them too but we bought our G22's in '08 and they have lots if life in them switching requires a huge investment in guns, holsters, mag pouches, ammo for training then armorer training and spare parts if it ain't broke don't fizmx it comes to mind

There is also the question of accessories for the guns does Safariland make an ALS holster to fit a Kruger with a weapon light? Probably but that has been an issue in the last too block is so imbedded across the board every makes gear and holsters for them

 

[Biggfoot44]

S&W , SIG , H&K , Glock , Berreta , etc all have strong support networks , and at least at times have aggressive pricing to agencies.

And having somthing *just like* other agencies in their area/ region is a big factor also , so there tend to be regional clusters.

Yes my SIG is an extremely nice gun, and I love it. My #2 shooting and hunting partner also swears by his H&Ks. BUT those two are at a price point disadvantage with lots of agencies. Glocks , S&W , Berreta , XD , plastic SIGs are all in a narrow enough price range , it comes more to the specific package deal offered by the local rep than anything else.

Given the oppertunity , I would be glad to carry my personal P90 .

 

[shawn mccarver]

Why hasn't Ruger gotten a bigger share of the Law Enforcement community? It seems like U.S. LEO's would want a U.S. born and bread firearm in their holsters but the majority of what I see being carried are Sigs, Berettas, Glocks, H&K's. Not since the '80's When S&W had a large share of the LEO Semi-Auto market has an American company been dominate in the LEO field. Sure, S&W is trying to make in roads with their M&P but it's still a struggle. Seems like Ruger with it's low cost, durability and reputation for being rugged and reliable would be a natural for LEO use but it seems like they have such a small share if any at all. So, what gives, why not more Rugers in the holsters of U.S. LEO's?

Quite frankly, if a gun company can do well without LE business, that is the better way to go. Ruger sells all it makes, and does not have to deal with the headaches of dealing with some of these unfortunate government bureaucrats.