Reverse indexing pawl question

[deanodog]

Could someone tell me about the reverse indexing pawl and can it be changed on a blackhawk?

 

[Hondo44]

I assume you're referring to the pawl on the anniversary model 357 and 44 mag, New Vaqueros and the recent flat top Blhk editions which also have a detent so the cylinder not only turns backwards but stops properly aligned with the loading gate. It's been a frustration since the new models came out with the transfer bar safety in 1972. Yes it can be changed on a standard new model Blackhawk and it's very easy to do if you have some minor skills.

Ruger, the last time I checked, will not sell these pawls so I bought a Powers Custom pawl from Brownells which is the same. It will need to be fitted to your cylinder by shortening the length of the top end until your hammer will fully cock. You will need to make a slight groove in the upper side of the trigger guard/grip frame under the location of the bottom end of the new pawl to allow clearance for the new pawl. That's all it takes; quite simple. It helps to have a Ruger grip frame from a model that came with the rev. pawl to observe for the exact location and depth of the groove.

I have done this to my new model single sixes since those small chamber holes are more frustrating to line up w/o turning the cylinder too far and having to go all the way around again. The detent parts are available from Ruger and are also an easy installation but not really worth the work since the reverse pawl sufficiently solves the problem.

Let us know if you decide to try it. It's a great convenience.

 

[deanodog]

Thanks hondo44
That is what I wanted to know. I don't plan on trying it myself but wanted to know.

 

[Dale53]

My understanding is that the Powers Custom pawl is merely a "free spinning" pawl (NOT an alignment pawl). If so, and you desire a free spinning pawl on a New Model Ruger Single action, it is a rather simple operation to make a free spinning pawl out of your original New Model Ruger.

I have this on my Ruger SS .45 Colt/.45 ACP convertible. It allows you to turn the cylinder both frontwards and back wards to align without issue.

However, the new Anniversary Rugers, New Vaqueros, and new Flattops have an alignment pawl (which in my opinion is superior to the free spin pawl).

I have both and find them both usable and definitely superior to an original New Model.

It CAN be confusing, can't it :roll:

Dale53

 

[Hondo44]

My understanding is that the Powers Custom pawl is merely a "free spinning" pawl (NOT an alignment pawl). If so, and you desire a free spinning pawl on a New Model Ruger Single action, it is a rather simple operation to make a free spinning pawl out of your original New Model Ruger.

I have this on my Ruger SS .45 Colt/.45 ACP convertible. It allows you to turn the cylinder both frontwards and back wards to align without issue.

However, the new Anniversary Rugers, New Vaqueros, and new Flattops have an alignment pawl (which in my opinion is superior to the free spin pawl).

I have both and find them both usable and definitely superior to an original New Model.

It CAN be confusing, can't it :roll:

Dale53

Yes it can be and you are a little confused: there is no such thing as an "alignment pawl" and the pawl is not what makes the chamber align, it just allows the cylinder to free spin in reverse and forward; both the Powers and the Ruger are the same in this regard. The Ruger detent, a separate device is what aligns the chamber, but you have to have a free spin/reverse pawl to work in conjunction with the cylinder detent. The detent is installed low in the hammer notch, protrudes thru the breechface and stops the cylinder in alignment when it is turned in the reverse direction. The free spin pawl alone only allows manual alignment if you turn the cylinder too far w/o having to turn it another complete rotation.

 

[Dale53]

Hondo44;
I believe, Sir, that you are nitpicking. :lol:

I am fully aware of how the process works. However, most that I know identify this as an "alignment pawl" in spite of the fact that the aligning is done by a spring loaded detent.

FWIW
Dale53

 

[Hondo44]

Hondo44;
I believe, Sir, that you are nitpicking. :lol:

I am fully aware of how the process works. However, most that I know identify this as an "alignment pawl" in spite of the fact that the aligning is done by a spring loaded detent.

FWIW
Dale53

Dale,

Oh that makes sense. I'm glad you know the process although you disguised it well, and now you agree the Powers and Ruger pawls are the same and your contradiction in terms is a misnomer. What "most that you know" identify it as, does not justify a misnomer. You said it was confusing, why perpetrate the confusion for those that want to understand? Do "most that you know" also refer to cartridges or rounds as bullets and does that make it right?

Most on this forum attempt to inform and clarify while you seem more intent on compromising that for what, your own trivial terms? Wouldn't you rather rethink it a little before you look even more foolish to all the forum members reading this thread? Anything else just makes my case.

 

[flatgate]

Now boys, we don't need to be nit picking.....

Besides, the reverse indexing pawl is indeed the item that aligns the cylinder's chamber with the loading recess. It's function relies on the "free spin" pawl to shift rearward and not touch the ratchet at the rear of the cylinder.

I prefer to toss those parts to the side and utilize a standard pawl and a "half cock" loading notch which is added to the hammer via welding.

JMHO,

flatgate

 

[Hondo44]

Welcome to the nit pickers. :wink:

I disagree, regardless of what it's called the pawl allows the cylinder to rotate in reverse it does not align it; the detent curtails reverse motion by stopping the cylinder for each of the chambers to exactly align with the gate. But hey, that's the beauty of it, everyone has the right to their HO.

And at least we can agree to disagree. Now have we beat this horse to death yet? :lol:

 

[tek4260]

To the original poster:

What do you mean by "can it be changed"? Are you wanting it to freespin? That is easily accomplished by simply removing the detent plunger and spring.

Note that the Ruger revolvers fitted with the detent have a reverse indexing pawl that has a leg that the hammer presses against to retract the pawl from the ratchet. They also use a thicker transfer bar, so dropping in a Super or modified Bisley hammer doesn't quite work and you can end up with 12 "clicks" due to the fact that the hammer isn't setting deep enough to retract the pawl. It's an easy fix though.

 

[Rclark]

FYI, I just looked in the Ruger Catalog 2009 that I have on hand... In the section for New Vaquero it references the 'feature' as the Patented Ruger Reverse Indexing Pawl "allows for easier loading and unloading" . There you go ... Straight from Ruger .

 

[tek4260]

It is a reverse indexing pawl. Just can't shift her into reverse without removing the plunger.

 

[flatgate]

I disagree, regardless of what it's called the pawl allows the cylinder to rotate in reverse it does not align it; the detent curtails reverse motion by stopping the cylinder for each of the chambers to exactly align with the gate.

Yes, you are correct however you're missing the boat with the parts' nomenclature.

The guns in question have two separate devices in contact with the cylinder's ratchet.

Item Number 1 is the pawl. It appears in ALL single action revolvers made by SR&Co. Since the advent of the "New Vaquero" Ruger has utilized a "free spin pawl" in their latest designs. The pawl has a small "extension" on its' lower end such that when the hammer is "at rest" the pawl is retracted and will permit the cylinder to rotate in any direction. Ruger then added the "reverse indexing pawl", which is a simple spring loaded plunger, that is located within the confines of the cylinder frame's "Ratchet Pad" such that its' plunger contacts the "teeth" of the ratchet. This device is aligned such that the "Reverse Indexing Pawl" plunger "clicks" on the Ratchet's teeth at the proper time to align the cylinder's chambers with the loading recess.

We are agreeing in principal, however the nomenclature must match the parts.

Just My Humble Opinion,

flatgate

 

[Hondo44]

flatgate, thank you and yes you and I are agreeing in principle but we both know how it works. And the issue was clarity not helped by Dale who was confused about which gun the OP was referring to or tangents on terms. See my point now?
OP asked:

Could someone tell me about the reverse indexing pawl and can it be changed on a blackhawk?

So he already knew the term, and it didn't answer his question. Repeating the term to him would be of no help whatsoever because:

Yes, Ruger Reverse Indexing Pawl is the patent title Ruger uses for one part of the concept. It DOES NOT in any way clarify that it takes TWO "PAWLS" to accomplish reverse indexing or how it works at all. It's also confusing because it uses the general meaning of a pawl for the detent (you even needed to use another term, plunger, to describe it) while not differentiating it from the traditional gun meaning of pawl (or hand) revolver owners are familiar with.

Therefore the method of my madness.

His response indicated he got what he needed before the nit picking began. I guess that's why they call it nit picking.

 

[kelbro]

I, for one, appreciate the detailed explanation of how that feature works.