Redhawk Jam - any ideas of the cause...?

[AJMD429]

My 45 Colt/ACP Redhawk will occasionally refuse to allow a full trigger-pull, without letting the trigger go fully forward, and trying again.

I sent the new, barely-fired, gun back to Ruger last year due to this, and they thought it might be that the trigger group wasn't seating fully in the frame (there was a small gap), so they fitted it better, and returned the gun to me.

I didn't really 'check it out' when it came back, because the problem had seemed random, and I assumed they had corrected it. Unfortunately NOT.....it happened again....!

After some dry-firing, I realized I can reproduce the 'jam' by not allowing the trigger to FULLY go forward after the hammer falls. There are several 'clicks' as the trigger goes forwards, but the very last one is faint, and only happens just as the trigger is fully forward.

If the trigger is released suddenly, so it returns forward briskly, the jam seldom happens, if at all. However if it is released gently or slowly, there is a 50/50 chance the last 'click' won't happen, and the next trigger pull won't work (the trigger moves maybe 1/4 of a full pull, and the hammer starts back about 1/4 of the full travel, then it stops).

Any ideas what the issue is...? I know I can ship it back again to Ruger, but would be interested to know what might be the problem. Is this something anyone else here has noticed with any of their Ruger double-actions (I have three other, older, Redhawks, a couple Speed-Sixes, and a couple SP-101's, and haven't ever noticed this issue with any of the others).

 

[Jimbo357mag]

When the trigger is not allowed to return fully before the next pull that is called short-stroking the trigger and that will jam almost any revolver, some worse than others. I suggest you clean and lubricate the gun and then dry fire it enough so the trigger returns briskly. If it won't do that, you may have to polish some of the hammer/trigger parts or send it back to Ruger for repair or have a gunsmith give it a tune up. If you want to do it yourself look for drag or wear marks on the sides of the hammer etc.

 

[powder smoke]

As Jimbo Stated, make sure you are FULLY CYCLING the weapon. ps

 

[rugerguy]

keep things 'oiled' ( lubed) if its stainless more susceptible to this 'short stroking' you can FOOL about any action, of any gun out there by going to "slow"", and trick the action............used to be an old sales/buy "trick" to show someone the gun is NO GOOD and out of time so got to be cheaper price,,,,,,,ha ha 8) :roll: :wink:
( I learned this from an old timer MANY years ago, back in the 60's and watched folks "con" others..yes, they are out there, caveat emptor baby....

 

[rammerjammer]

Sounds like the culprit is user error and you're short stroking the trigger. Possibly a mechanical error but I'd bet it's more likely short stroking.

 

[AJMD429]

Thanks for the replies. In the case of this particular revolver, sometimes the trigger actually needs to be PUSHED forward to make the last 'click' happen for reset. So I think that there is likely a burr or some other impediment keeping it from going fully forward.

I will investigate this on my next day off....

 

[Varminterror]

The last "click" of the Ruger trigger reset is the trigger plunger (not the part most people think of) clicking over the top of the locking bolt. That spring isn't very strong, there's a lot of surface for dragging between the trigger and the plunger (worsened by gummy lube), the engagement surfaces are rough stamping/castings, and worse, the angle of engagement isn't supported, so the plunger very commonly binds rather than passing over the locking bolt properly.

This particular fitment error is what I believe to be the second-most common driving force behind many users insistence of using heavy factory springs in these revolvers (the first being a relatively irrational fear of ignition issues with light springs). If the trigger resets forcefully, it'll overcome the trigger plunger's drag, however, I'd much rather fix the disease, rather than simply overpower the symptom with a heavy spring.

Personally, I cut bushings (shims really) to position the trigger plunger within the trigger, and polish the daylights out of all of the contact surfaces. I lap the spring bore and polish the pawl plunger as well, and ensure the engagement of the plunger and bolt are well mated. If there's too much downward slack in the plunger, I've peened the bottom to help it stand a touch taller in the trigger - just have to be careful to not make it too tight against the pin.

 

[anachronism]

It sounds like it's time for you to consider having a trigger job done. If you do this, make certain that your 'smith understands your style of shooting, and what your issue is. A good 'smith will polish the internals both ways. That means that as much attention is paid to how the trigger returns forward, as is paid to how the trigger is pulled rearward. You're shooting double-action, the trigger return is as important as the pull. Also, as your trigger finger moves back forward, make sure your finger "rides" the trigger forward. This may not be practical until the trigger is done, but it is necessary.

 

[AJMD429]

Thanks for all the replies.

I took it apart, polished off a couple burrs, lubed it, and reassembled it, and it works MUCH better. I can still MAKE the jam happen intentionally, but it won't just happen from a lazy return.

I plan to fire 500 rounds or so through it, assess the 'jam' again, and if it is at all an issue, send it back or attempt a more intense home-repair after researching matters more. Definitely has to be 100% before going to grizzly country.

What I did in the interim was interesting though.

I swapped trigger groups and hammers from my new 45 ACP/Colt Redhawk (503-88xxx) with a 15-20 year old 44 Mag Redhawk (502-14xxx) that I've shot so much it really is smooth, and with that gun I can't even intentionally get the trigger to fail to reset. I was just curious as to whether or not I could do the 'simple fix' of putting the more reliable parts in the gun I'd use for bear protection, and the less reliable ones for now in the gun I use more for deer hunting. NEITHER gun functioned well with the other one's guts...! Other than smoother surfaces on the older gun, there were no obvious parts differences or spring tensions I could tell just by hand. Both guns were ROUGH in trigger pull, the trigger sometimes staying rearward and needing pushed forward. I thought it was just my re-assembly technique (or lack of), since getting the plunger in a Ruger Mark-II 22 LR Pistol is easy compared to getting the one in the Redhawk aligned. However, disassembly and reassembly two or three times got me the same results, and in between when I put the old parts in the old gun and the new parts in the new gun, I got the same thing as before - the old gun smooth and flawless, and the new one rougher (but way better than with the 'old' parts in it), and easy to 'jam' like before.

Not sure what to make of that, other than to make a mental note that I can't just 'swap parts' in those guns like some others....

At this point, I'm leaving the old one as-is, since it is smooth and reliable, and will just work with the new one to get it to that point. If the parts don't swap, that's fine.

 

[mohavesam]

A good lesson learned - who knows what minor changes in tolerances, materials, manufacturing, or finishing have been implemented in 20 years.

 

[AJMD429]

Well, I fixed it, sort of. I figured I'd post an update in case anyone else could learn from my experience. I received some good advice in this post from a guy named Ioweganon the RugerNET Forum:

• http://rugerforum.net/ruger-double-action/268898-redhawk-jam-any-suggestions.html#post3183818

(...I'm not sure why there are two RugerForum's - RugerForum.net, and RugerForum.com - and I hope it isn't some sort of sin to lurk and/or post on both of them...).

UPDATE: Thanks for all the replies.

I took it apart, polished off a couple burrs, lubed it, and reassembled it, and it works MUCH better. I can still MAKE the jam happen intentionally, but it won't just happen from a lazy return.

I plan to fire 500 rounds or so through it, assess the 'jam' again, and if it is at all an issue, send it back or attempt the more intense repair Iowegan so kindly illustrated. Definitely has to be 100% before going to grizzly country.

What I did in the interim was interesting though.

I swapped trigger groups and hammers from my new 45 ACP/Colt Redhawk (503-88xxx) with a 15-20 year old 44 Mag Redhawk (502-14xxx) that I've shot so much it really is smooth, and with that gun I can't even intentionally get the trigger to fail to reset. I was just curious as to whether or not I could do the 'simple fix' of putting the more reliable parts in the gun I'd use for bear protection, and the less reliable ones for now in the gun I use more for deer hunting. NEITHER gun functioned well with the other one's guts...! Other than smoother surfaces on the older gun, there were no obvious parts differences or spring tensions I could tell just by hand. Both guns were ROUGH in trigger pull, the trigger sometimes staying rearward and needing pushed forward. I thought it was just my re-assembly technique (or lack of), since getting the plunger in a Ruger Mark-II 22 LR Pistol is easy compared to getting the one in the Redhawk aligned. However, disassembly and reassembly two or three times got me the same results, and in between when I put the old parts in the old gun and the new parts in the new gun, I got the same thing as before - the old gun smooth and flawless, and the new one rougher (but way better than with the 'old' parts in it), and easy to 'jam' like before.

Not sure what to make of that, other than to make a mental note that I can't just 'swap parts' in those guns like some others....

At this point, I'm leaving the old one as-is, since it is smooth and reliable, and will just work with the new one to get it to that point. If the parts don't swap, that's fine.

UPDATE Part Two:

After a couple hundred dry-fires, the need to actively PUSH the trigger forward for complete reset started again, so I took Iowegan's advice, and effected at least a temporary repair; unfortunately I didn't have any brass tubing, but I did have an ink pen that had exploded, strewing the little plastic ratchet parts about. It turned out one of them was a perfect diameter to form sort of a bushing, and it MARKEDLY reduced the wobble of the Trigger Plunger. What this did was interesting - it made the 'jam' much more consistent, the feel of the 'reset' much more precise, but it did still happen. So I used a hard Arkansas stone to polish the nose where it contacts the cylinder bolt, just enough to allow it to pop up and over it when the trigger is about 0.06" from fully forwards (this now duplicates my older Redhawk) instead of having to be FULLY forward, and sometimes given that extra 'nudge'.

I will get a chunk of brass tubing for more durability, however - I don't want anything that might crack and come off and gum up the works down the road. Speaking of that, the little Trigger Guard Latch Retaining Ring is a pretty fragile thing, and loose, and it seems a roll-pin through the shaft of the Trigger Guard Latch would be less prone to coming off under recoil.

Anyway - problem solved - Thanks Iowegan.....!

 

[AJMD429]

......what's the saying about countin' chickens afore they hatch....???

I bought the brass tubing today, excited to make the repair more permanent, and so today I'm fiddlin with the Redhawk, and try to slow the trigger's return so as to make the 'jam' happen (which I could NOT do last night).

And it jammed... :shock:

Repeatedly... :?

So I watch the cylinder bolt carefully, and realize that "when I push the trigger forward", it pulls the bolt away from the cylinder as the trigger plunger is popping up over the bearing surface.....but, "when I push the trigger forward" - I have also been subtly putting some pressure on the cylinder and forcing it to rotate clockwise (not the normal operational rotation).

What actually is allowing the trigger to reset fully now appears to be the [abnormal, forced] rotation of the cylinder actually camming the cylinder bolt out of the locking notch; there is actually a radius on the trailing edge of the bolt that the little dished-out area beside the cylinder bolt notch catches and appears to push the bolt away from the cylinder enough to reset the trigger. It does NOT appear to be a simple 'binding' issue, in that if I wiggle the cylinder it won't free the bolt up to move on its own; it is only when I really torque the cylinder clockwise that the bolt pops out of the notch. I hadn't realized that when trying to re-create the 'jam', what I thought was un-doing it (pushing the trigger forward) may not have been the only thing that was un-doing it; evidently it was un-jamming when I put some clockwise torque on the cylinder.

Maybe I hadn't noticed this because the trigger also required the forward push (...I remember that so distinctly...!) until I fixed that part last night.

Unfortunately, although the shimming did make things perceptably more consistent, and I do think the stoning of the bearing surface (5 light strokes with a hard Arkansas stone) improved the 'reset point' as felt through the trigger, the durn thing still jams with ordinary dry-firing. I thought about a range session to see if the shock of live ammo would prevent the jam from happening, but the gun still shouldn't lock up like that, even dry-firing....! I am not going to wear Kevlar gloves just so I can keep one hand on the cylinder to torque-assist... :roll:

I'm also not sure why last night the 'jam' was not easy to make happen without severely retarding trigger return, yet today it jams like that at least 50% of the time.

The end-point will probably be another trip to Ruger, but I'm still curious as to what the problem is, because I want to know what to watch for if they do fix it (those 'repair letters' you get back seldom say anything helpful), and the way repair services go these days, I'm not sure they actually will fix it. Gone are the days of walking into the gun shop, showing the gunsmith what is going on, so he [or she] gets the real story and fixes the right thing. I'm not even sure the letter I wrote last time describing the problem got read by the guy who worked on it; these days a clerk types everything into a bunch of computer check-boxes, just like in health care, and nobody really knows what is going on.