Reaction time

[Mobuck]

My threat response reaction time was tested last night. I don't want to waste cat food on raccoons so when I come in for the final time in the evening, I set the cat food pan on top of the grill sitting just outside the back door. Before heading for bed, I always do a weather check by opening the back door and taking a look around. Last night when I opened the back door for a weather check, I met a raccoon face to face at about 2' distance as it had managed to climb the grill leg to reach the cat food.
W/o actual thought or preparation, I was able to draw and cover the coon before it could react and jump off the grill. There was no safe shot on a scampering cat food thief BUT had this been a human intruder, that would not have been first priority.
Outside a 'range scenario' in which you already know you're going to draw (and maybe/maybe not fire) and w/o prior knowledge of a threat can you or have you considered just how quickly you can respond to a threat? I realize many folks only have range rules for practicing and are limited to 'prepared' scenarios making it impossible to generate an entirely 'SURPRISE' response.

 

[xTopGun]

at that distance John Wick would have killed you with his pencil before you ever got your gun unholstered . . . . .

 

[contender]

Actually,, many of us who shoot USPSA have fairly quick reaction times.

But it's always good to know we can do it if necessary.

 

[DGW1949]

My observations have been that reaction times can be shortened with practice.
Give someone like Wes Flowers a holstered SAA, line him up against an average shooter who already has a drawn gun aimed at the target, set-off the go signal and Wes will draw, fire and hit the target before the other guy can simply fire his own already-ready gun.....I've seen him do it many times...Others can too. We call 'em experts, but really they are regular guys whom have developed skills through the type of dedicated training and practice sessions that most of us don't have the will for.
It's like Bear Bryant once said;
"Everyone has the will to succeed, but not everyone has the will for the work it takes."

DGW

 

[blume357]

In a perfect world what you are referring to as reaction time should be less than 2 seconds. Two things happen.... you see the threat and determine deadly force is needed (1/2 second) and then the threat is no longer viable. what I'm saying and is probably what Mobuck experienced is he saw a threat and his training reacted instantly. I took the 4 day defensive handgun class out at Front Sight 5 times... (yes, I know that sounds crazy) at the end of that four days I could draw from concealed and put two to center mass in less than 2 seconds.... which is really not that fast. Now I'm sure I can't. We get a lot of stories about people showing their weapon and causing the threat to back off and I'm not disputing that but I still fall back on something my father told and I guess taught me a long time ago. You never point a gun at a living person.... if it's pointed at them then you have determined before hand they are dead... in other words according to him if you draw your weapon you have already decided to fire it.

 

[Mobuck]

" in other words according to him if you draw your weapon you have already decided to fire it."
Pretty much statement of fact.
The last time I drew my handgun in a threatening scenario was maybe 10 years back and yes, I fully intended to shoot that threat. There was no 'quick draw' involved as I saw the threat and retreated as far as possible before making a stand behind cover. I/we could not retreat further w/o compromising cover. I gave fair warning and triggered the laser for emphasis leaving the next step up to him. Both the primary and secondary threat chose to run rather than face the advantage I had.

 

[MaxMan]

The range I go to does not allow draw and fire. I practice draw and dry fire at home and practice pick the gun up from the shelf and fire at the range. Not optimum I know. .

 

[xTopGun]

I'd submit that a real live-fire situation might just hamper that draw-n-fire time - jus say'n ...

 

[contender]

Blume is quite correct. As is Mobuck.

Reaction is ALWAYS slower than action. It's that reaction time you can reduce with lots of practice.
I've posted several times about my friend, and fellow USPSA shooter, a Highway Patrolman,, who got shot in the chest 2-1/2 years ago on July 3rd. His reaction time was greatly reduced because he was a USPSA competitor,, AND he practiced a lot.
It saved his life.

I know a LOT of people who can take a plain simple Kydex holster,, and a box stock handgun,, and draw & fire (2) rounds into a target,, with accuracy,, in well under 1 second. Most of these people are regular USPSA shooters.

I own a range,, and sadly just like what MaxMan says, other ranges do not allow "draw & fire" practice.
I allow it. BUT,,,,,,,,, due to liability,, it's only done under direct supervision by a range officer.
You HAVE to practice it a lot to develop the motor memory skills of a proper gripping method, the draw WITHOUT putting the finger on the trigger,, the acquisition of the gun with the off hand, completing a proper grip, the alignment of the sights and then the trigger application. It's a learned skill, and best done under supervision.

However,, you can EASILY do a lot of self training,, by doing it a lot at home, and ONLY with an EMPTY gun. Dry fire practice is an excellent method of developing the skills to be a safe "action" shooter. Adding a timer to give you a point of reference to react to,, is a wonderful way to sharpen these skills. You can also set a timer to what we call a "par time." It beeps,, then at a pre-set time,, beep again. An example would be a 2 second par time. At the first beep,, you draw & present the gun, dry firing it. If your hammer or striker falls after the second beep, you were slower than 2 seconds. Once you develop the skills & beat the 2 second time,, reduce the par time to 1-3/4 seconds. Repeat things until you can reduce it to 1-1/2 seconds. Keep practicing this until you can get under 1 second,, and you will surprise yourself in how well you can be.
Then,, you will automatically be quicker if presented with a scenario where you have to react to anything that may require the use of a defensive weapon.

I was just typing this & xTopGun made a comment. I disagree. Please re-read my part above about my Highway patrol friend. He credits his reaction speed & such to his years of practice. And if you didn't get to read about his shooting,, here's a brief description.
A broke down vehicle. He did not blue light or was trying to charge the guy with anything. He stopped to offer help. Casual conversation,, until suddenly the guy came out of the back seat area, with a Desert Eagle .44 mag, and from about 4 ft away, fired into my friends chest. In the publicly released picture,, just before the guy fired,,, Jeff can be seen reacting,, as he is in the process of drawing his gun. He got hit in the chest,, in his vest,, and quickly returned fire. He fired 6 times,, hitting the suspect 5 of the 6 times. His 6th shot went just over the guy as he was falling.
Jeff credits his skills with saving his life.

 

[xTopGun]

Blume is quite correct. As is Mobuck.

Reaction is ALWAYS slower than action. It's that reaction time you can reduce with lots of practice.
I've posted several times about my friend, and fellow USPSA shooter, a Highway Patrolman,, who got shot in the chest 2-1/2 years ago on July 3rd. His reaction time was greatly reduced because he was a USPSA competitor,, AND he practiced a lot.
It saved his life.

I know a LOT of people who can take a plain simple Kydex holster,, and a box stock handgun,, and draw & fire (2) rounds into a target,, with accuracy,, in well under 1 second. Most of these people are regular USPSA shooters.

I own a range,, and sadly just like what MaxMan says, other ranges do not allow "draw & fire" practice.
I allow it. BUT,,,,,,,,, due to liability,, it's only done under direct supervision by a range officer.
You HAVE to practice it a lot to develop the motor memory skills of a proper gripping method, the draw WITHOUT putting the finger on the trigger,, the acquisition of the gun with the off hand, completing a proper grip, the alignment of the sights and then the trigger application. It's a learned skill, and best done under supervision.

However,, you can EASILY do a lot of self training,, by doing it a lot at home, and ONLY with an EMPTY gun. Dry fire practice is an excellent method of developing the skills to be a safe "action" shooter. Adding a timer to give you a point of reference to react to,, is a wonderful way to sharpen these skills. You can also set a timer to what we call a "par time." It beeps,, then at a pre-set time,, beep again. An example would be a 2 second par time. At the first beep,, you draw & present the gun, dry firing it. If your hammer or striker falls after the second beep, you were slower than 2 seconds. Once you develop the skills & beat the 2 second time,, reduce the par time to 1-3/4 seconds. Repeat things until you can reduce it to 1-1/2 seconds. Keep practicing this until you can get under 1 second,, and you will surprise yourself in how well you can be.
Then,, you will automatically be quicker if presented with a scenario where you have to react to anything that may require the use of a defensive weapon.

I was just typing this & xTopGun made a comment. I disagree. Please re-read my part above about my Highway patrol friend. He credits his reaction speed & such to his years of practice. And if you didn't get to read about his shooting,, here's a brief description.
A broke down vehicle. He did not blue light or was trying to charge the guy with anything. He stopped to offer help. Casual conversation,, until suddenly the guy came out of the back seat area, with a Desert Eagle .44 mag, and from about 4 ft away, fired into my friends chest. In the publicly released picture,, just before the guy fired,,, Jeff can be seen reacting,, as he is in the process of drawing his gun. He got hit in the chest,, in his vest,, and quickly returned fire. He fired 6 times,, hitting the suspect 5 of the 6 times. His 6th shot went just over the guy as he was falling.
Jeff credits his skills with saving his life.

hmmm, i.e. "might", most gun shooters are people who shoot at paper targets, not at a target which has probably already fired at you. Startle reaction alone will slow most shooters immeasurably. Then many will fumble in a state of shock, disbelief trying to retrieve their weapon. Now, by the time many get their gun in hand they will have little if any situational awareness present, etc., etc., etc.

 

[Mobuck]

One can't 'practice' a surprise response under prepared circumstances.
Best alternative is making sure your 'muscle memory' is up to date. This can go too far: Bill Hickok shot his own deputy (Mike Williams) because he responded too quickly to a perceived threat.

 

[blume357]

Closest I've ever come and hope it stays that way is twice I took a force on force class at the Sig Academy.... quite an eye opener even though you know something is going to happen and so are somewhat prepared, it is still quite interesting to have someone appear and start shooting at you and others or come at you with a knife. The interesting thing is usually there was a scenario where the only thing you were supposed to do is retreat and call 911.

 

[DGW1949]

Training and practice can be good things.......
On the other hand, it's not really possible to practice what only happens in real life during real events....You know, like the world around you shifting into slow motion, or suddenly there's only tunnel vision surrounded by darkness, and/or the sensation that it is taking you 10 minutes to just draw your gun....The kind of stuff that only the initiated know about....and what if the "expert" instructor whom is teaching your class doesn't know about those things either?....What then?
Just thinking out loud.

DGW

 

[Jeepnik]

Personally, I'm as slow as molasses in winter. Then again I have only had to draw a pistol rapidly for real once. That particular time I was the fastest draw somewhere in Southeast Asia. And from a full flap holster, at that.

 

[blume357]

Training and practice can be good things.......
On the other hand, it's not really possible to practice what only happens in real life during real events....You know, like the world around you shifting into slow motion, or suddenly there's only tunnel vision surrounded by darkness, and/or the sensation that it is taking you 10 minutes to just draw your gun....The kind of stuff that only the initiated know about....and what if the "expert" instructor whom is teaching your class doesn't know about those things either?....What then?
Just thinking out loud.

DGW

you are right DGW... the first part of the force on force classes is a lecture on how when sh#t happens more than likely those things will occur... tunnel vision loss of hearing and such. The idea in these classes was to try and inoculate you to a degree from that and also be prepared for it some.

 

[DGW1949]

you are right DGW... the first part of the force on force classes is a lecture on how when sh#t happens more than likely those things will occur... tunnel vision loss of hearing and such. The idea in these classes was to try and inoculate you to a degree from that and also be prepared for it some.

It sounds like you have had somewhat better instruction than I was exposed to....
In my case, I attended 3 different classes over a period of some 20 years. All were being taught by licensed instructors whom were using materials which were mandated by the State of Texas, and neither of the three so much as mentioned it....(1) While attending the Harris County Sheriff's Academy in order to obtain my Texas Peace Officer License, (2) As part of the curriculum required to obtain a Private Investigator License from the Texas Department of Public Safety, and (3) Sitting through the the classroom study which was required by the State right after the first "Concealed Handgun permit" thing got passed by the Legislature...Which I never actually sent off for, even after paying for the training.....But like I said, that was all some time ago....Maybe it's different nowadays, I dunno.

DGW

 

[mirglip]

it's not really possible to practice what only happens in real life during real events....

DGW

We could hire someone to punch us in the face repeatedly with all his might or beat us over the head with a stick or carve us up with their knife while we draw and shoot. Then we would know how good we are under duress.

 

[DGW1949]

We could hire someone to punch us in the face repeatedly with all his might or beat us over the head with a stick or carve us up with their knife while we draw and shoot. Then we would know how good we are under duress.

How "good we are under duress" is purdy-much a learned behavior that begins when we are young. Today's kids don't climb trees like we did. Much less have the opertunity to fall out of one....
Just sayin'.

DGW

 

[xTopGun]

It sounds like you have had somewhat better instruction than I was exposed to....
In my case, I attended 3 different classes over a period of some 20 years. All were being taught by licensed instructors whom were using materials which were mandated by the State of Texas, and neither of the three so much as mentioned it....(1) While attending the Harris County Sheriff's Academy in order to obtain my Texas Peace Officer License, (2) As part of the curriculum required to obtain a Private Investigator License from the Texas Department of Public Safety, and (3) Sitting through the the classroom study which was required by the State right after the first "Concealed Handgun permit" thing got passed by the Legislature...Which I never actually sent off for, even after paying for the training.....But like I said, that was all some time ago....Maybe it's different nowadays, I dunno.

DGW

I've no idea what Shooting Survival Seminar's are available today; but, this was available in the 80's - damn glad I attended a couple. . . . .

"Second Chance" seminars include:

• Founder: Richard Davis founded the Second Chance body armor company and the annual "Second Chance" shoot, a pivotal event in the advancement of modern tactical handgun training.
• Focus on Realism: Training shifted from traditional, slow-fire target shooting to combat-oriented drills. These included night shoots, shooting in low-light conditions, and using cover.
• 1980s Techniques: The era emphasized techniques such as shooting through windshields and engaging targets while wounded (e.g., using only one hand).
• Equipment Evolution: The 1980s marked a transition period, with many officers moving from revolvers to high-capacity, semi-automatic pistols.
• Key Topics: Seminars often covered officer survival, "post-shooting" tactics, and the use of force, often instructed by leading experts in tactical shooting and police combat.
• The "21-Foot Rule": The Tueller Drill, which addresses the danger posed by an attacker armed with a knife within close range, gained recognition during this period as a vital training element for law enforcement

 

[Jeepnik]

How "good we are under duress" is purdy-much a learned behavior that begins when we are young. Today's kids don't climb trees like we did. Much less have the opertunity to fall out of one....
Just sayin'.

DGW

Or jumping and finding out ones vertical limit vs pain ratio.

 

[kmoore]

Reacting to a possible deadly encounter is practice, YES. But it has many steps, so I will jump to advanced steps.
To be here, you know where all your equipment is like gun, spare ammo. How to use it without looking for it. How to holster without looking for the holster. etc. etc.
Now have your empty gun where you CCW, close your eyes. Have a friend stand somewhere in the room where you don't know where he/she is. They yell; go you open your eyes, you find the threat, unholster and point gun at threat. You can even have shoot/no shoot by having the threat armed or not at times. Now your learning, your reaction time. A lot of it is deciding shoot/no shoot.
Don't trust yourself with an empty gun, use a finger gun and point.

At the range having a buddy set up shoot/no shoot drills are good. Easy as setting up several targets numbered and the buddy yells out which 1 to shoot. Then your adding reaction time to draw and fire.