For any of you metalurgists out there, what is the best way to ensure long life from a metal spring, specifically the spring in a semi-auto magazine or in the semi-auto itself? Over the years I have heard both leaving the mag empty or leaving it full as the best way to ensure the viability of the spring. I guess a third option is leaving the mag partly full. And in the gun itself, is leaving a home defense gun loaded and cocked bad for the gun itself or is it better to leave the gun with a full mag but uncocked? This is more for my curiousity because personally I have never had a magazine "go bad" due to a spring that cannot do its job, whether left empty or full for years, but I've often wondered about this whole issue.
Question about springs
- Thread starter vito
- Start date
GunnyGene
Hawkeye
What kills springs is extreme heating, which can result from constant and rapid bending especially if there is a weak or thin spot in the spring that is susceptible to metal fatigue. It's very rare these days to see this from a quality spring company, but imports from other countries that may use poor quality steel and/or poor manufacturing processes are another story.
welder
Buckeye
The steel used in quality magazines or any other device is rated to be fully compressed to a point that will not harm it. I read somewhere that Bill Ruger used to spec the magazine springs 20% under the maximum yield rate when fully loaded but can't remember where. The springs in magazine can be left fully loaded without harm from what I read and I saw a story in a gun rag once that said a WW2 vet passed and in his belongings was found a 1911 and mags still loaded with surplus war ammo from the 50's, all rounds fired and the mags functioned after decades being fully loaded.
Another guy explained it this way, your car sits on springs from day one and the only wear they receive is in compression/expansion (think gun recoil spring) and even then the springs usually last far beyond the life of the car.
I personally load my mags and forget about them, I've never had a spring failure. When the mag is inserted in the gun the top round is resting against the bottom of the slide so the feed lips are not under tension either. I usually download my extra hi-cap mags a round or too to help with feed lip and top round pressure even though that too is probably unnecessary.
I store my Glocks pre-cocked, the trigger return spring is under less tension while the striker is under a little tension, but again I doubt it really matters in the long run.
Another guy explained it this way, your car sits on springs from day one and the only wear they receive is in compression/expansion (think gun recoil spring) and even then the springs usually last far beyond the life of the car.
I personally load my mags and forget about them, I've never had a spring failure. When the mag is inserted in the gun the top round is resting against the bottom of the slide so the feed lips are not under tension either. I usually download my extra hi-cap mags a round or too to help with feed lip and top round pressure even though that too is probably unnecessary.
I store my Glocks pre-cocked, the trigger return spring is under less tension while the striker is under a little tension, but again I doubt it really matters in the long run.
NixieTube
Blackhawk
There are four main things that lead to premature failure of springs:
1) Bad metallurgy during manufacture. There's not much that can be done about this. Get a new spring.
2) Extension or compression of the spring past the "elastic yield point" which means you've either stretched it out too much or compressed it beyond its design parameters. Trying to load 11 rounds into a 10 round magazine will do this over time. There's a rumor that some disreputable manufactures wind crummy magazine springs that will exceed the elastic yield point under "nominal" loadings in order to cause them to prematurely fail and force you to buy new springs. Rumors! I tell you :shock:
3) Overheating which changes the microstructure of the metal. Self explanatory. Don't heat your springs up with a blowtorch. You are very likely altering the structure of the metal, depending on what it is.
4) The most important one: USE.
And I'll add: 5) Even though it's rare: you don't want the spring to "bunch up" or buckle. That causes some portions of the spring to have a much higher load on them than others, which is why we have guide rods.
That's right - USE. It is actually USING the spring which makes them grow weaker over time. If you load a spring so that it is within its metallurgical and elastic limits, you are not "wearing it out." It's just storing energy, similar to a battery - as long as it within its design parameters. The more you USE the spring, the more they wear out. It's the constant flow of energy into and out of the spring that causes them to "sag" after a while - because that's what a spring does - it stores energy. When you compress a spring, imagine that what you're doing is taking a long rod and *twisting* it about its long axis. We put them in coils because it saves space, but basically what you're doing is twisting the entire piece of metal, like clamping a straight rod in a vise at one end with a pipe wrench on the other and turning the pipe wrench. Incidentally, this is why some automobiles, trucks, and other vehicles and machines have used "torsion rod" suspensions. It's still a spring - it's just a "straight" spring that was never coiled up.
This is why it's fine to leave your magazines loaded, half loaded, or completely unloaded according to your preference. Everything else being equal, it's the *cycling* of the spring that causes it to weaken. So if you shoot your guns more, your mag. springs will inevitably weaken. You can probably leave a magazine loaded for 100 years and the springs will still be as good as the day they were new as long as they weren't overloaded, heated up, or otherwise abused.
My $0.02.
1) Bad metallurgy during manufacture. There's not much that can be done about this. Get a new spring.
2) Extension or compression of the spring past the "elastic yield point" which means you've either stretched it out too much or compressed it beyond its design parameters. Trying to load 11 rounds into a 10 round magazine will do this over time. There's a rumor that some disreputable manufactures wind crummy magazine springs that will exceed the elastic yield point under "nominal" loadings in order to cause them to prematurely fail and force you to buy new springs. Rumors! I tell you :shock:
3) Overheating which changes the microstructure of the metal. Self explanatory. Don't heat your springs up with a blowtorch. You are very likely altering the structure of the metal, depending on what it is.
4) The most important one: USE.
And I'll add: 5) Even though it's rare: you don't want the spring to "bunch up" or buckle. That causes some portions of the spring to have a much higher load on them than others, which is why we have guide rods.
That's right - USE. It is actually USING the spring which makes them grow weaker over time. If you load a spring so that it is within its metallurgical and elastic limits, you are not "wearing it out." It's just storing energy, similar to a battery - as long as it within its design parameters. The more you USE the spring, the more they wear out. It's the constant flow of energy into and out of the spring that causes them to "sag" after a while - because that's what a spring does - it stores energy. When you compress a spring, imagine that what you're doing is taking a long rod and *twisting* it about its long axis. We put them in coils because it saves space, but basically what you're doing is twisting the entire piece of metal, like clamping a straight rod in a vise at one end with a pipe wrench on the other and turning the pipe wrench. Incidentally, this is why some automobiles, trucks, and other vehicles and machines have used "torsion rod" suspensions. It's still a spring - it's just a "straight" spring that was never coiled up.
This is why it's fine to leave your magazines loaded, half loaded, or completely unloaded according to your preference. Everything else being equal, it's the *cycling* of the spring that causes it to weaken. So if you shoot your guns more, your mag. springs will inevitably weaken. You can probably leave a magazine loaded for 100 years and the springs will still be as good as the day they were new as long as they weren't overloaded, heated up, or otherwise abused.
My $0.02.
Rick Courtright
Hawkeye
Hi,
Vito, this is an issue which methinks will NEVER be completely put to rest as long as there are two owners of removable magazines left in the gun world to argue about it!
There's theory, there's reality, and there are anecdotal stories enough to support both sides. This fellow probably does as good a job as any when he puts the discussion in his "Make up your mind Monday" category:
http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/magazine-springs-and-ammo-cycling/
It sounds like he offers good advice, but even that is based on conflicting viewpoints! My personal thought is a properly made (very important qualification--see Gunny's comments on it) spring will last a lifetime for most of us. Yet springs still fail. We see both ends of the spectrum in the shooting world.
My own anecdotal evidence on "lifetime" use comes not from magazines but hammer mainsprings in a Browning O/U trap gun. At about 110k rounds (roughly 100k in one barrel, the rest in the other), I got nervous and thought they should be replaced. I bought new springs, and compared them to the old ones. Sure enough, the old ones were shorter, though equal in length despite the 10:1 difference in use. But after I replaced them, there was no measurable difference in trigger pull, nor could I detect any other change in those performance characteristics one can only feel. Later, my ol' gunsmith boss told me those original springs weren't "worn" but had "taken a set", which he said had probably taken place in the first 500-1000 rds I'd fired with each barrel, and since they hadn't broken already, they could have gone well over another 100k as easily as not. I sold the gun maybe 15k rounds later, so have no idea if my ol' boss' prediction came true.
At the same time, I have other anecdotal evidence of "problems" with magazine springs. Funny thing, the fellow's discussion of cleaning the mags before blaming the springs applied to me, too!
I'll leave it there.
Rick C
Vito, this is an issue which methinks will NEVER be completely put to rest as long as there are two owners of removable magazines left in the gun world to argue about it!
There's theory, there's reality, and there are anecdotal stories enough to support both sides. This fellow probably does as good a job as any when he puts the discussion in his "Make up your mind Monday" category:
http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/magazine-springs-and-ammo-cycling/
It sounds like he offers good advice, but even that is based on conflicting viewpoints! My personal thought is a properly made (very important qualification--see Gunny's comments on it) spring will last a lifetime for most of us. Yet springs still fail. We see both ends of the spectrum in the shooting world.
My own anecdotal evidence on "lifetime" use comes not from magazines but hammer mainsprings in a Browning O/U trap gun. At about 110k rounds (roughly 100k in one barrel, the rest in the other), I got nervous and thought they should be replaced. I bought new springs, and compared them to the old ones. Sure enough, the old ones were shorter, though equal in length despite the 10:1 difference in use. But after I replaced them, there was no measurable difference in trigger pull, nor could I detect any other change in those performance characteristics one can only feel. Later, my ol' gunsmith boss told me those original springs weren't "worn" but had "taken a set", which he said had probably taken place in the first 500-1000 rds I'd fired with each barrel, and since they hadn't broken already, they could have gone well over another 100k as easily as not. I sold the gun maybe 15k rounds later, so have no idea if my ol' boss' prediction came true.
At the same time, I have other anecdotal evidence of "problems" with magazine springs. Funny thing, the fellow's discussion of cleaning the mags before blaming the springs applied to me, too!
I'll leave it there.
Rick C
NikA
Hunter
While the design of springs in applications may never exceed the yield point of their original temper state, the input and discharge of energy cited by NixieTube may locally raise their temperature such that the temper is changed. This would occur in a spring that this rapidly cycled below the fatigue limit, resulting in a loss of temper and lower spring strength. This would also be evident in a simple to measure metallurgical experiment. I would be willing to do the necessary sample prep if someone can provide two identical springs (preferably from the same material lot), one cycled a high number of times and the other not cycled or cycled only a small number of times.
Note that this mechanism also implies that leaving magazines loaded/unloaded is not a factor.
Note that this mechanism also implies that leaving magazines loaded/unloaded is not a factor.
NixieTube
Blackhawk
NikA said:
Thank you that was an even better exegesis of my exegesis. 8) And all of that is because what you are doing to a spring when you "cycle" it is that it is storing and releasing energy. Well, nothing is perfect and heat happens
.From a purely mechanical standpoint, wear from rubbing on stuff matters too. I've seen quite a few coil springs which exhibited obvious flat areas which were caused by the spring rubbing against a slide, or a guide device, op-rod, or what have you.
Hammer springs, recoil springs, mag springs, etc.....they are all subject to mechanical wear.
Some wear quicker than others, depending.
Tore down an old M1 Rifle for a guy who said it was having functioning problems. What I found was that it's recoil spring had not been replaced in so long that it's "worn-flat" areas had finally gotten so thin/weak that the spring had begun to break apart into sections.....three of them to be exact.
I highly doubt that both breaks happened at once. Nope, it was a process, the final result of which was that the gun finally quit working.
Regular inspection/maintenance/replacement will prevent that sort of thing, and ya don't have to be an armorer, gun smith, or spring expert to see when something which used to be round is starting to get flat......but ya do have to look and pay attention.
DGW
Hammer springs, recoil springs, mag springs, etc.....they are all subject to mechanical wear.
Some wear quicker than others, depending.
Tore down an old M1 Rifle for a guy who said it was having functioning problems. What I found was that it's recoil spring had not been replaced in so long that it's "worn-flat" areas had finally gotten so thin/weak that the spring had begun to break apart into sections.....three of them to be exact.
I highly doubt that both breaks happened at once. Nope, it was a process, the final result of which was that the gun finally quit working.
Regular inspection/maintenance/replacement will prevent that sort of thing, and ya don't have to be an armorer, gun smith, or spring expert to see when something which used to be round is starting to get flat......but ya do have to look and pay attention.
DGW
Pat-inCO
Hawkeye
Have direct experience with one from Korea, exact same results.welder said:
welder
Buckeye
I think the article was in the form of a question posed to one of the writers, maybe Shooting Times or Handguns, can't remember but that story has always stuck with me when I see those spring debates come up. I doubt you'll ever see a quality magazine have a spring failure in all but the extreme cases, I know I never have and I have at least 6 Glock mags and several Ruger that have been loaded for years and make steady and routine trips to the range with no problems.
The only magazine failure I have ever had was with a Chip McCormick Shooting Star that came with a Kimber 1911. I was reloading it at the range one day and had gotten about 6 rounds in when the spot welds on one side let go causing the floor plate to peel back spewing hardball all over the deck along with the spring and follower. From that day forward I've always kept a second magazine handy. That mag was only a couple years old.
The only magazine failure I have ever had was with a Chip McCormick Shooting Star that came with a Kimber 1911. I was reloading it at the range one day and had gotten about 6 rounds in when the spot welds on one side let go causing the floor plate to peel back spewing hardball all over the deck along with the spring and follower. From that day forward I've always kept a second magazine handy. That mag was only a couple years old.
Rancher Will
Blackhawk
The hammer spring in my S&W Model 29 revolver has been tested, I am sure, perhaps over a hundred thousand times, and it has never failed. I have dry-fired uncounted times, regularly fired Wax bullets for practice nearly weekly, and live fired with full pressure lead bullets at least each month for over 45 years. It is still the hammer spring that came from the factory.
NikA
Hunter
Leaf or coil spring? It makes a significant difference in how localized the strain (material deformation) is in the spring.
