PERCEIVED recoil

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thedogdidit

thedogdidit

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OK ladies and gents please bear with me on this one.
I know there has been many "this caliber vs that one" threads done on here. I find them interesting.
But I think this one to be a little different.
I have quite a few 44 magnums, but just picked up my 1st 41 magnum.
I have never shot 41mag before, nor have I shot 44 special.
I have read on here the MANY posts about folks loving their 41s.
Let's be honest.....it's cult like lol.
I just picked up a 41 bisley, but it's never been fired. Nor will it be. Not this one while I own it anyways. I have her identical twin in a 44 magnum. Never been fired, but I don't mind changing that. So until I find a shooter grade 41, I am trying to scratch the 41 curiosity itch.
IF I was to use 44 special factory loads in it, would it be a similar experience to shooting the 41?
Thank you for your experienced input in this!
 

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Apples to oranges.
A "regular" SAAMI-Spec .44 Spl load is very enjoyable to fire out of a full sized steel revolver and even a school girl could shoot it all day long. Nothing at all like a .357.....As for a full-house .41 Mag, I can't personally tell one of those from a 44 Mag. Both are way more obnoxious than I want to tolerate.
Of course, once we start talking hand loads and/or "tier this, that, or the other" kind of stuff, all the above is subject to change.

DGW
 
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DGW1949 said:
Apples to oranges.
A "regular" SAAMI-Spec .44 Spl load is very enjoyable to fire out of a full sized steel revolver and even a school girl could shoot it all day long. Nothing at all like a .357.....As for a full-house .41 Mag, I can't personally tell one of thouse from a 44 Mag. Both are way more obnoxious than I want to tolerate.
Of course, once we start talking handloads and/or "tier this that or the other" kind of stuff, all the above is subject to change.

DGW
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Thank you sir. As stated above I have nothing to compare to. I was imagining that the 41 might be a step above a 357 as I have zero experience with either. I shoot 44 and 45 quite a bit.....well....when my schedule permits anyways. I don't have any issue with these calibers. That being said though, I want to build a shooter that allows me to really enjoy shooting a larger quantity of well aimed shots. One that doesn't punish me more and more with each shot.
7.5" revolvers have never been my go to shooter even though I own many. I've gotten into 4 5/8" revolvers more for just "shooting". I can honestly say that my knowledge of shooting surpasses my personal skill. In the military I was a pistol and rifle coach. So I know the skills, but do not practice them.
Honestly, I just happily waste ammo as a means to destress and decompress. I want to now begin honing patience while shooting. I figured that this longer barreled Bisley may be a good place to begin this. Btw, I am talking factory loads. For now anyways.
 
I don't have a 44, but I do have a 45 Colt Bisley and had a 41 Mag Bisley a few years ago. There wasn't a whole lot of difference between them, and I load my 45 Colt balls to the wall. I never did load for the 41, didn't have it long enough to order dies even.
 
Considering that you have intentions to shoot some guns and will refrain from shooting others, I can confidently say that a gun you actually fire is going to kick more than a gun you don't fire. Everyone else's experience is just conjecture.
 
thor's daddy said:
Considering that you have intentions to shoot some guns and will refrain from shooting others, I can confidently say that a gun you actually fire is going to kick more than a gun you don't fire. Everyone else's experience is just conjecture.
Click to expand...
THAT could go over the heads of some :)
 
It def did not go over my head. I responded to that comment, but then deleted my reply. Figured what the heck, I DID ask the question.....guess that was a version of experienced input. So I will take that one for what it's worth.
Yes, I do own a few that are safe queens intended for rainy day funds one day. They are never to be fired unless their new caretaker decides to do so.
Each of those have a respectable number of close cousins that get their exercise as often as my schedule permits. The only one that doesn't have a calibered counterpart in my collection is the 41. I have owned it less than 24 hours, and it is my 1st 41. So far. Still keeping my eye out for that just right deal on a 4 5/8" package. So of course my curiosity is piqued.
I have plenty of 44s, but have never shot specials in them as I said above. So again, nothing to compare it to. Yet.
 
Not so long ago in dog years the 41 mag was an orphan and the 44mag was the perceived king of the hill.
This only meant that 44's were more expensive than 41's. :unsure:
So I bought a lot of 41 mags and shot the snot outta them.
Later on the poles reversed and 41mags became a cult. Prices shot up and I sold most to the 41 true believers.
I kept some and will occasionally still shoot them.
This bunch of Dan Wesson 41 and 44 mags make comparing pretty easy to do
41+ 44.jpg

All this looong story is getting the point that I have shot the two side by side without the reverence to the 41mags inferred magic benefits.
My humble takeaway is with open honest eyes I find little perceivable difference in recoil or long range trajectory.
Sure, there may be a measurable difference scientifically derived. But for an old guy shooting reloads at rocks 100 yards away,,,,,,,,,no difference!
Betcha if blindfolded, with equivalent bullets, powder and guns you couldn't either.
 
@needsmostuff Thank you for your reply sir. Greatly appreciated. Not the answer I expected before answering this question.
From the many comments that I have read over the years, I was speculating that the 41 was a mild mannered critter. I was only guessing at that though. I have noticed that a few of these who authored these comments are ones that enjoy this particular caliber with a strong loyalty. I guess I jumped to the conclusion that it was due to a softer recoil that leaves their hands in less pain at the end of the day. As well as its known flatter trajectory.
Btw, you sir have an amazing collection there.
 
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I found my .41 magnum NMBH to "recoil" less than my .44 mag Redhawk but as stated, not less than .44 specials. I really enjoy shooting the .41 where not as much with the Redhawk despite it being heavier than the NMBH. Redhawk = 4" barrel, NMBH = 5.5" barrel.

I also have an airlight S&W 329pd in .44 magnum and that really sucks to shoot unless you are a glutton for punishment. Great to carry though and very accurate.
 
Being of the geek persuasion I used https://jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmrecoil-5.1.cgi and ran .41M 210gr. XTP over 9.8gr. AA No.5 at 1100fps and 2.75# handgun giving 8.9ft lbs recoil energy.

.44M 240gr. XTP over 14.5gr. AA No.7 at 1145fps and 2.75# handgun gives 13.6ft lbs recoil energy.

.44SPL 200gr. NOS JHP over 7.2gr. No.5 at 766fps and 2.75# handgun gives a meager 4.0ft lbs recoil energy.

.357Mag 158gr. XTP over 8.6gr. No.5 at 1066fps and 2.25# handgun gives 6.1ft lbs.

.38SPL +P 158gr. XTP over 6.6gr HS6 at 926fps and 2.25# handgun is 4.4ft lbs.

So in theory the handload .44SPL is even lower recoil than a .38+P while the .41M is just a bit more than a .357 and much less than a .44M. Your loads may vary.
 
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LDB said:
Being of the geek persuasion I used https://jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmrecoil-5.1.cgi and ran .41M 210gr. XTP over 9.8gr. AA No.5 at 1100fps and 2.75# handgun giving 8.9ft lbs recoil energy.

.44M 240gr. XTP over 14.5gr. AA No.7 at 1145fps and 2.75# handgun gives 13.6ft lbs recoil energy.

.44SPL
Click to expand...
Comparing with a calculator can be tricky if you're not careful with the numbers...

If the two guns being utilized for this test are both of the same barrel length, the 44 Mag will weigh less than the 41, so you can't really just throw the same weight in the calculator for both guns.

Also, you'll need to find a load for both guns which utilizes the same powder (and preferably, the same velocity). Using a slower powder in the 44, again, throws off the calculation. More powder = more ejecta = more recoil.

As an aside, I would avoid Ruger's published data for gun weights, as they seem to come up with numbers that defy the laws of gravity... but I digress...
 
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Apples....oranges.....

No mention of barrel length or propellant burn rate. So many variables (y)
 
I just ran the numbers through the JM Ballistics calculator using Hodgdon data and came up with:

41 Magnum, 245 grain bullet, 21gr H110, 1563 fps, gun weight (6" FA83) 52.32 oz. = 22.5 ft/lbs.

44 Magnum, 240 grain bullet, 24gr H110, 1522 fps (2-inch shorter barrel in Hodgdon data), gun weight (6" FA83) 51.52 oz, = 22.5 ft./lbs.

It really doesn't suprise me one bit that folks say they don't really notice a difference between the two in actual experience. The data suggests that in reality the 41 Mag load would be a bit slower if the barrel lengths were the same, so you'd have a bit of reduction in recoil there. But as has been noted, not enough to really notice...
 
thor's daddy said:
I just ran the numbers through the JM Ballistics calculator using Hodgdon data and came up with:

41 Magnum, 245 grain bullet, 21gr H110, 1563 fps, gun weight (6" FA83) 52.32 oz. = 22.5 ft/lbs.

44 Magnum, 240 grain bullet, 24gr H110, 1522 fps (2-inch shorter barrel in Hodgdon data), gun weight (6" FA83) 51.52 oz, = 22.5 ft./lbs.

It really doesn't suprise me one bit that folks say they don't really notice a difference between the two in actual experience. The data suggests that in reality the 41 Mag load would be a bit slower if the barrel lengths were the same, so you'd have a bit of reduction in recoil there. But as has been noted, not enough to really notice...
Click to expand...
I care about how the target recoils, not the gun. :devilish:
 
thor's daddy said:
I just ran the numbers through the JM Ballistics calculator using Hodgdon data and came up with:

41 Magnum, 245 grain bullet, 21gr H110, 1563 fps, gun weight (6" FA83) 52.32 oz. = 22.5 ft/lbs.

44 Magnum, 240 grain bullet, 24gr H110, 1522 fps (2-inch shorter barrel in Hodgdon data), gun weight (6" FA83) 51.52 oz, = 22.5 ft./lbs.

It really doesn't suprise me one bit that folks say they don't really notice a difference between the two in actual experience. The data suggests that in reality the 41 Mag load would be a bit slower if the barrel lengths were the same, so you'd have a bit of reduction in recoil there. But as has been noted, not enough to really notice...
Click to expand...

Thank you for the more "apples to apples" comparison (y)
 
Congrats on the Bisley .41 those are sweet guns, and the cult vibe is real for a reason flatter shooting, less recoil than .44 Mag, great balance in that grip frame.
Short answer No, shooting factory .44 Special in your .41 Magnum won't feel very similar to shooting .41 Magnum. It's safe chamber dimensions allow it plenty of folks do it in Ruger S&W .41s with no issues, as the .429 bullet jumps to .410 bore without drama, but the experience is way milder.

Recoil: .44 Special factory loads 180 246gr at 700-900 fps are soft, low snap, almost like a hot .38 Special or light .357 pleasant plinking. .41 Magnum factory 210gr at 1200-1300 fps is stout but manageable in a Bisley sharper push than .44 Mag's heavier wallop.
Ballistics feel: .41 Mag delivers way more energy 700-800 ft lbs vs. 350-500 for .44 Spl, flatter trajectory, better penetration on game. .44 Spl in .41 feels underpowered less boom, less muzzle rise, less magnum punch. It's like shooting .38 Spl in a .357 fun and cheap but not the real deal.
Why folks love .41:The cult is for the full-house loads better sectional density than .44 Mag for penetration, less recoil for follow ups, and that sweet spot between .357 and .44.
 
don765 said:
Congrats on the Bisley .41 those are sweet guns, and the cult vibe is real for a reason flatter shooting, less recoil than .44 Mag, great balance in that grip frame.
Short answer No, shooting factory .44 Special in your .41 Magnum won't feel very similar to shooting .41 Magnum. It's safe chamber dimensions allow it plenty of folks do it in Ruger S&W .41s with no issues, as the .429 bullet jumps to .410 bore without drama, but the experience is way milder.

Recoil: .44 Special factory loads 180 246gr at 700-900 fps are soft, low snap, almost like a hot .38 Special or light .357 pleasant plinking. .41 Magnum factory 210gr at 1200-1300 fps is stout but manageable in a Bisley sharper push than .44 Mag's heavier wallop.
Ballistics feel: .41 Mag delivers way more energy 700-800 ft lbs vs. 350-500 for .44 Spl, flatter trajectory, better penetration on game. .44 Spl in .41 feels underpowered less boom, less muzzle rise, less magnum punch. It's like shooting .38 Spl in a .357 fun and cheap but not the real deal.
Why folks love .41:The cult is for the full-house loads better sectional density than .44 Mag for penetration, less recoil for follow ups, and that sweet spot between .357 and .44.
Click to expand...
Thank you VERY much for this answer!! This response is worded exactly in a way that I can fully grasp and understand. I will be saving this answer to refer back to from time to time. Thank you again
 
LDB said:
Being of the geek persuasion I used https://jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmrecoil-5.1.cgi and ran .41M 210gr. XTP over 9.8gr. AA No.5 at 1100fps and 2.75# handgun giving 8.9ft lbs recoil energy.

.44M 240gr. XTP over 14.5gr. AA No.7 at 1145fps and 2.75# handgun gives 13.6ft lbs recoil energy.

.44SPL 200gr. NOS JHP over 7.2gr. No.5 at 766fps and 2.75# handgun gives a meager 4.0ft lbs recoil energy.

.357Mag 158gr. XTP over 8.6gr. No.5 at 1066fps and 2.25# handgun gives 6.1ft lbs.

.38SPL +P 158gr. XTP over 6.6gr HS6 at 926fps and 2.25# handgun is 4.4ft lbs.

So in theory the handload .44SPL is even lower recoil than a .38+P while the .41M is just a bit more than a .357 and much less than a .44M. Your loads may vary.
Click to expand...
Slow down Dr. Newton, I'm not a mathemagician:D But seriously though, thank you. I am heading in the direction of reloading. Acquiring the necessities for it. Few more items left before I start. I am sure when I do start, this will start making more sense. But currently I literally just snag whatever is on sale at the LGS. Never thought about FPS in my revolver loads. Only concern about grains has been whether or not my 300 blackout ammo is subsonic or not for my suppressor.
Currently not a "technical" shooter. Just a forget work and enjoy a day away shooter. Shoot, without worrying about shot placement. Slowly heading in the right direction though, so thank you for that very informative answer!
 
Yeah, mine weren't identical rounds but I went with what I thought might be most common in each and thereby most likely recoil perception of each. I didn't use a 240gr. bullet for the .357 numbers either.
 
Most 44 SP is fairly mild and easily managed. Once upon a time, I had a S&W 624 44SP and decided I wanted to carry it for bear protection on a summer visit to backwoods Montana. Using the heavy end of published data, I assembled some pretty powerful ammo. The S&W handled it fine and IIRC, the recoil was a step up from 357 mag in a S&W 66.
With this in mind, I'll say the 41 mag is going to recoil noticeably more than a 357 mag. My Cousin has a S&W 41 mag and says it's recoil is well below a 44 mag.
 
SAAMI spec loads are likely to be a 210 grn. bullet in the 41 & a 240 in the 44, both traveling at nearly the same velocities.
The simplest physics, which I know little about will say the 41 will have less "actual" recoil.

"Perceived" recoil can be what the shooter feels or what they think they feel. A well practiced or seasoned shooter could likely tell the difference, but an occasional or new shooter might think they both kick like a mule. Perceptions can vary.

Then it can get tricky, especially when not comparing apples to apples. I have 4" 44 mag S&W Mountain gun on the large N frame that weighs 39 0unces. I also have a S&W model 69 in 44 mag with a 4" barrel that's on the medium frame & weighs 37 ounces. Obviously, the heavier gun will have less "actual" recoil. But, the 69 has more of its weight up front & has less muzzle flip when firing, having me "perceiving" that it recoils less than the heavier gun which in fact it does not.
 
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No, shooting factory .44 Special in your .41 Magnum won't feel very similar to shooting .41 Magnum. It's safe chamber dimensions allow it plenty of folks do it in Ruger S&W .41s with no issues, as the .429 bullet jumps to .410 bore without drama, but the experience is way milder.
Click to expand...

HUH?!?
 
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