do you have direct experience with the courts being more or less favorable with hollow points vs solids?
Penetration vs Expansion
- Thread starter JackAsinus
- Start date
Been waiting for decades to my oft asked question. Can you point to an actual case where a citizen was convicted for unlawfully shooting a criminal, based on the ammunition that was used?
Do you have one to offer???
No direct experience, but my uncle was a Provost Marshall, Colonel, in the Strategic Air Command with 30 years as a military cop and he always said do not give the lawyers another excuse to bury you. However i have been wounded twice and neither were with bullets, just mortars and claymores, both of which were ugly, jagged wounds. Bullets would have been cleaner.
Please..... :rolleyes:
No disrespect, but, the myth about getting prosecuted because of handloaded ammo is a bit overstated to say the least.
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My question has always been... when this is mentioned... hand loads... hollow points or even the gun modified to a degree (better trigger) and this zealous prosecutor is going to use it against you... I'm just wondering who is the person in forensics who actually figured this out? I really doubt in most cases there is anyone who is actually going to measure the pull weight on the trigger or be figuring out that you were using ammo you reloaded. I really doubt there are a lot of 'Abbys' out there that can look at a bullet and figure out not only the make and model number of the gun it came out of but the year it was made and then look it up in the universal gun registration and find the person who owns it.
Any basic Central Nervous System hit will drop them right there. That's why penetration and energy transfer are so important. Any bullet reaching the spine with enough energy will put anyone down even with a gut shot.
GunnyGene
Hawkeye
The spinal cord is the trunk line to everything down stream from the wet ware in the skull.
But adrenaline messes up your aim and the other issue is most bad guys won't stand still for you to even take aim and hit that 1/2" rope running up their back.
GunnyGene
Hawkeye
Dad always thought the Thompson was a good people stopper. M-3 in a pinch. But no, we got the M-4 using a varmit round.
Spray and pray is the way to go when the Chinese hoards are coming over the hill... my father's company melted the barrels on two water cooled machine guns one night in Korea. Could not keep the lanterns lit in the tents because of the Howitzers firing grape shot in all directions.... Official numbers from China is now 52,000 "Heros".
Sorry, I know I strayed....
Sorry, I know I strayed....
People are delusional about 12ga buckshot. It's going to have a 4-6" spread at HD distances.
Too bad we couldn't make that hundreds of millions of "Heroes"!!!
GunnyGene
Hawkeye
That's ok. My IWI carries 15+2, so plenty of chances to walk them in. :devilish:
GunnyGene
Hawkeye
I've fired both, but can't afford a full auto, so got the next best thing in .45acp. :devilish:
I have yet to read or hear about a homeowner using some of these type firearms in home defense, and I think that the spraying of 20 or 30 rounds of any caliber at the home invader would likely make a widely desseminated news story. Personally I can't see how I would keep any long gun, even one with a short barrel, both accessible to me while I was asleep and not accessible to any grandkids that might be sleeping over that night. A Glock 17 in a steel safe box with a fingerprint reader in my bedside table lets me sleep comfortably.
Depending on the choke (y)
GunnyGene
Hawkeye
Blunderbuss. Or a rifled barrel. :devilish:
Most of those 'Heros' were conscripts... at some point in that conflict they captured a Chinese soldier and one of the guys in my father's platoon walked by and realized he knew him... the marines parents had been misionaries in china and this captured soldier had been one of his friends... he said he and his family were out working in the field about 2 years before and a truck with soldiers pulled up and told him to get in.. that is the last time he had seen his parents.
I agree, I don't know of a single case that was used in a case of SD and held against the shooter. Maybe there is 1 out there, if so, I would love the read the case summary.
I know it was talked about decades ago not to modify factory made bullets. Some said HP bullets would get you in trouble because the miliary couldn't use them. Thats BS. Unless there is a local law outlawing HP bullets.
For those that don't understand a criminal case: Pre trial, that's before the real trial. Both sides go over what their going to use as proof for their side. A big IF the idea is that the type of bullet, ammo, caliber, factory or handloaded ammo is attempting to prove that the shooter did so just to kill better in a shooting. The counter to all that is expert witnesses to disprove that BS.
Remember self-defense does not say you can kill, it says you can stop the threat. If you had made statements about your ammo, gun, caliber was modified by you to kill a human better. You created yourself a big problem.
As a working cop, it is important to use only ammo supplied or approved by the department. Otherwise you could look bad in pre trial or the court case and need to prove you were right and your dept was wrong in choice of ammo.
You are actually making my point.
Is this any different than a reference earlier in this thread?
Anti-Personnel? Could that not be construed as "making a statement about your ammo, gun and caliber.....to kill a human better"
Point is, it has never happened and likely never will. I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it :rolleyes:
Also remember case studies done by FBI from ER rooms and autopsies of humans shot with handguns. The doctors agreed they could not tell which caliber or bullet type did the damage until they found the bullet. Thats with handguns.
The entry wound on human skin might give you a good idea of caliber, the damage inside to tissue/bones is really dependent on many factors. Where the bullet went, it's speed/penetration on impact and yes it's construction. I don't know how much each of those plays into the whole incident.
My opinion is each case is its own facts. One point of those factors may have made a bigger impact on the outcome in one case but not another. Not all cases turn out the same.
My thought is the factory who made such a statement is the problem. They should come to court and make their case. But the person who bought the ammo did so legally and ammo was legal?Is this any different than a reference earlier in this thread?
Anti-Personnel? Could that not be construed as "making a statement about your ammo, gun and caliber.....to kill a human better"
Point is, it has never happened and likely never will. I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it :rolleyes:
Your question is valid. Not sure which way a jury would go. Me, I would avoid that ammo for my use.
Remember Remington went out of business because of marketing methods on AR-15s. Not the person who used the rifle illegality.
Yeah, let's not lose sleep over this stuff.
magnum0710
Single-Sixer
Sufficient penetration should always be a priority over expansion, if you can get both that's great but expansion is worthless if the penetration isn't there. You need penetration in order to hit anything vital. My rule is 9mm and up get hollow points 380 and lower get solids with 38 special falling somewhere in between.
For standard pressure 38 special I would only use a solid bullet, preferably a semi wadcutter or wadcutter, the only standard pressure 38 hollow points I've seen get decent penetration and expansion are a few of the 110 grain loads, I'm not a fan of light bullets so I stick to heavier solids.
Now there are 38+p hollow points I do trust, my top 3 are the Federal 38G FBI load, the Winchester 125 SJHP, and the Remington 125 SJHP. The 125 Golden Saber, the 135 Gold Dot, and the Remington version of the FBI load are ok but they make the bare minimum of penetration, not enough penetration for me to be 100% comfortable. I want more than the 12 inch minimum, 16 is where I get comfortable. The new Fiocchi Covert-X 38+p is very intriguing so far, it might just be the one to beat from the couple tests I've seen.
For standard pressure 38 special I would only use a solid bullet, preferably a semi wadcutter or wadcutter, the only standard pressure 38 hollow points I've seen get decent penetration and expansion are a few of the 110 grain loads, I'm not a fan of light bullets so I stick to heavier solids.
Now there are 38+p hollow points I do trust, my top 3 are the Federal 38G FBI load, the Winchester 125 SJHP, and the Remington 125 SJHP. The 125 Golden Saber, the 135 Gold Dot, and the Remington version of the FBI load are ok but they make the bare minimum of penetration, not enough penetration for me to be 100% comfortable. I want more than the 12 inch minimum, 16 is where I get comfortable. The new Fiocchi Covert-X 38+p is very intriguing so far, it might just be the one to beat from the couple tests I've seen.
I don't care if you use a .22 BB cap or a howitzer just use whatever you are comfortable with. I chose my preferred handgun round because I am comfortable and confident in its ability to work when needed.
"Sufficient penetration should always be a priority over expansion, if you can get both that's great but expansion is worthless if the penetration isn't there. You need penetration in order to hit anything vital."
Agreed, BUT (there's always a BUT). If the bullet isn't showing significant expansion within 3-4" it may as well be a FMJ. Far too many 'experts' base their opinions on the premise of a perfect hit.
Long ago and far away a skinny farm boy pondered his decision to be where he was for the reasons he was there. His security blanket was a 9mm sub gun loaded with FMJ ammo. In the process of keeping himself alive, he experienced the inadequacy of penetration w/o expansion. The reality he discovered: 9mm FMJ isn't much more effective than 22lr unless delivered in bulk. :unsure:
Agreed, BUT (there's always a BUT). If the bullet isn't showing significant expansion within 3-4" it may as well be a FMJ. Far too many 'experts' base their opinions on the premise of a perfect hit.
Long ago and far away a skinny farm boy pondered his decision to be where he was for the reasons he was there. His security blanket was a 9mm sub gun loaded with FMJ ammo. In the process of keeping himself alive, he experienced the inadequacy of penetration w/o expansion. The reality he discovered: 9mm FMJ isn't much more effective than 22lr unless delivered in bulk. :unsure:
jmca
Single-Sixer
6! He fires one in the middle where you hear the shot but don't see anything except a blur on the screen.
magnum0710
Single-Sixer
I agree, especially with 9mm fmj. I'm not sure if its because 9mm ball is pointy while 45 and 380 are more round but 9mm fmj is definitely a poor choice even when compared to fmj in other calibers. I mostly meant in smaller/less powerful calibers where you can't really have a good balance of both. If a 380 or standard pressure 38 expands to .50+ but only does 8 to 10 inches of penetration the expansion hurt more than helped. Expansion is pretty much useless when it causes under penetration.
I will say that a hollow point that doesnt expand is still better than fmj, at least from what I've seen in gel tests over the years. Its not much better but the hollow point will still pump the breaks a little bit.
