New to P90 - flinch issue is WORSE

[Orangeusa]

Been shooting 9mm Beretta for a couple of months, and have a flinch I've been working on ENDING!!! 1 out of 25-30 go 3-4" low at 7 meters. Grouping w/o flinch < 3". Not a great shot, but not terrible. Double that for 14 meters - ocassional flyer even worse..It might be my grip, but had a few guys look at it and watched - said it was okay. They noticed on the 9mm that during SA was definitly PULLING down. Slow takeup and pull have helped this dramatically...

Tried my new P90 and seems comfortable, but am awful. Probably a 6" GROUP at 7 meters.

It's definitely me, not the pistol. 45 ACP is a BIG round, but FUN!!! Did surprisingly well with a 1911, but could have been luck....

Any ideas? Or minor spring mods? (How many threads like this do you get per day!!!) ha

BTW - no issues with FTF FTE - no surprise. Everyone has said it'll eat anything... I did ask the range guys to open up the new gun and oil the rails for me. Failed to do that on the 92FS and got 1 FTE out of 1200 rounds.. (got FTE about 50 rounds on a dry gun).

Thanks....

 

[Cheesewhiz]

You're probably dipping your head, hold the gun up higher, bring your head up like you're stretching your neck. There is no reason to crouch when shooting paper, good posture will help for now.

 

[Orangeusa]

I've never heard that before. But I will try it.
FYI - I've not really seen a good handgun "how to shoot" book. Most are about 'tactical situations'. Which doesn't really help me at the range.

Thanks - will keep you posted.
I DID download the Army handbook for handgun accuracy, and am reading that, but - all examples are a one hand - combat example.

 

[revhigh]

Try dry firing in your living room with a nickel on the slide or sight if it will allow it. If you can do it without the nickel falling off, you've solved your problem.

REV

 

[BuckJM53]

Try dry firing in your living room with a nickel on the slide or sight if it will allow it. If you can do it without the nickel falling off, you've solved your problem.REV

Rev beat me to it .... My son was having a similar problem when shooting my P95. I showed him the nickel (or quarter if you prefer) drill. After about 50 dryfires (half DA and half SA) including working on his trigger squeeze (not pull) and follow through, his flinch problem went away (really helped to tighten his goupings). Good luck.

 

[dakota1911]

Fear is the mind killer. My grandfather told me when I was 9 .45 1911s did not kick much more than a .22 Ruger MkI I had been shooting since I was 7. It did not.

 

[greener]

The trigger drills suggested are good. Any trigger drill is good. You might also want to try the Wall Drill, which is basically dryfiring and UNLOADED pistol about an inch from a blank wall focusing on the front sight. While concentrating on the front sight squeeze/press/pull the trigger so as to keep the front sight stationary. When livefiring concentrate on the front sight and your trigger press.

You might also want to check your grip. If your grip is too loose, the pistol will jump and you will "feel" more recoil. Check out this for grip http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6867071363

 

[Orangeusa]

I tried the dryfiring w/ nickle (on Beretta - I get the Ruger in 2 days).
Didn't drop nickle. Found out most of the problem was GUN NOISE making me slightly JUMPY!!! (nothing new here). Quit using earplugs, and went back to the ear muffs. Not the main problem.

Another interesting thing, if I fired slightly faster, focusing completely on the front sight, then I get a more random, acceptable to ME (at least) grouping. This gave the MOST change..

And I changed my hand position (per Ayoobs book) for the higher primary hand position (push up as high as possible). seemed to help a little.

dakota1911 - will keep that in mind.

Also, I was trying the cheezwiz suggestion, and standing more NORMAL, not a crazy crouch with foot back...

Kinda like golf, kinda NOT like golf....

"Ghost" brought up a good point that I neglected, I've not had any TRAINING per se. The range has classes, like SAFETY, and SELF DEFENSE, but none that I know of to improve your skills. Look at golf or skiing - they throw instructor$$s at you. Any suggestions in this area???

Thanks folks.....

 

[Dot_mdb]

Dry firing might help if your problem is trigger control. If you are flinching because you body is reacting to the expected noise and recoil than you need to practice with a .22.

Bill

 

[Orangeusa]

Once again I thank you for all your comments. They are all relevant, and I think I'm trying to do too many changes too fast. Probably have to go back to 22's at 25 feet until I'm comfortable (as suggested) and work up from there.

I did the same thing when golfing... Go crazy changing everything, then stop, and then work back from basics.

Cheers....

P.S. Great website...

 

[greener]

Another interesting thing, if I fired slightly faster, focusing completely on the front sight, then I get a more random, acceptable to ME (at least) grouping. This gave the MOST change..

Holding too long and trying too hard? Usually, a lot of bad shooters I see try to see how fast they can empty the magazine. In your case, speeding up the shot may be preventing you from thinking so much about the shot and then trying to "grab" the target. It may be part of your flinch. For accurate target shooting, you should hold your breath during the shot. If you hold it for more than 5-10 seconds, your vision starts to blur and there is a tendency to snatch the shot. If you are not on target with the sights lined up, don't take the shot.

This is a pretty good reference for shooting basics.

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/amucover.htm

 

[Orangeusa]

This is an ancient post, but thought I'd bring it full circle.

From PM's with Ghost, determined that finding an instructor would be worthwhile, as would getting the best ear protection.

Found a smart instructor at one range (went to quite a few ranges - and most are lingo talking hot shots). The fellow went to Iraq two times (a Marine), and now instructs contractors for the Gov to defend themselves...

Bottom line - I paid for TWO 1 hour lessons - 2 weeks apart. Fixed my grip, "FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT", stance and now I can hit with decent groups. Better than 90% of the guys at the range - you know most can't shoot, but I'm enjoying shooting again.. And that's not just with one gun, I can handle most guns and shoot DECENTLY. The front sight thing was to keep focused only on the front sight, target fuzzy in background.

So there is hope for ALL of us!!! Was harder to find a smart guy than to improve my skills!!!

Thanks guys!!!

 

[BuckJM53]

Orangeusa ... Glad to hear that you found someone who could help you resolve your issues (it is always alot more fun when you can see progress and hit what you're aiming at). Make sure to post a target when you get a moment :wink:

 

[greener]

Congratulations on learning the secret of the front sight. Enjoy.

 

[ArmedinAZ]

Congratulations on learning the secrete of the front sight. Enjoy.

Yeah, Col. Jeff Cooper said you have to worship your front sight.

 

[Orangeusa]

I'll post when I get this perfect grouping, or punch a bunch of fake holes in the target!!! Kidding.

I dug up this ancient post to inform other folks that a LESSON is inexpensive (compared to blowing through ammo) and effective.

Front site and trigger control were the biggest things I had to improve.
Now just to try something other than shooting paper!!! Moving, shooting metal... sounds like fun!!!

Thanks guys - and to Ghost especially!!!

 

[SteveSatch]

Where did you buy the P90 from in So Cal? It's the one Ruger pistol I wish I had.

 

[stare-decisis]

Try dry firing in your living room with a nickel on the slide or sight if it will allow it. If you can do it without the nickel falling off, you've solved your problem.

REV

Agreed, old Army trick.
You could also spend 15$, but a few dummy-snap caps and load them in your magazine randomly the next time you shoot. See how much you flinch when you get to those.

 

[sargents1]

Sounds like Orange got his flinch fixed.

That being said this is probably whipping a dead horse, but I thought I would share a couple of tricks my cousin taught me. He is a damn good shot with a handgun (or anything really) and has helped me out from time to time.

If you have a revolver you can try this one. The idea here is to catch yourself in the act of flinching and thereby confirm that you are indeed flinching and begin working on the fix. Have a friend load the revolver with an unknown number of rounds, less than 6. You friend then spins the cylinder and closes it before handing it to you. This way you do not know if you are dropping the hammer on a live chamber or an empty chamber. Cock and fire six times and note when you drop the hammer on an empty chamber. Believe me, when you try this for the first time it will be crystal clear when you are flinching. then you start working on each trigger pull as though it was on an empty chamber.

Another thing that helps me is switching back and forth between my 45 revolver(or my P85 9mm) and my MKII .22LR. If you have started up a flinch on the bigger gun you will be better able to notice and correct it with the .22.



The things that were previously mentioned are all good suggestions, ear protection, focus on the front sight, etc etc.

Also focus on keeping the exact same sight picture each time and Aim small. With my MkII, I can usually hit empty shotgun shells at 25yds, it may take a few shots but its easier than I thought it would be.

Cheers,

This is an ancient post, but thought I'd bring it full circle.

From PM's with Ghost, determined that finding an instructor would be worthwhile, as would getting the best ear protection.

Found a smart instructor at one range (went to quite a few ranges - and most are lingo talking hot shots). The fellow went to Iraq two times (a Marine), and now instructs contractors for the Gov to defend themselves...

Bottom line - I paid for TWO 1 hour lessons - 2 weeks apart. Fixed my grip, "FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT", stance and now I can hit with decent groups. Better than 90% of the guys at the range - you know most can't shoot, but I'm enjoying shooting again.. And that's not just with one gun, I can handle most guns and shoot DECENTLY. The front sight thing was to keep focused only on the front sight, target fuzzy in background.

So there is hope for ALL of us!!! Was harder to find a smart guy than to improve my skills!!!

Thanks guys!!!

 

[Orangeusa]

Where did you buy the P90 from in So Cal? It's the one Ruger pistol I wish I had.

On-Target in Laguna Niguel 1-949-348-0352. It was NIB and I paid ~ $450. I tried calling them - pretty sure they DON'T have any in stock, but wanted to see if they could order them. Or call Ades (in orange), 714-744-3373 - they can order them.

Funny - I didn't know what I was buying until I got it home, did a little research... Just wanted an inexpensive .45, then I found THAT TRIGGER and that Bar-Sto had something to do with the design of the barrel. (methinks)

Hopefully this thread will help somebody else. I'm just stunned by how few folks at the range can SHOOT and hit paper, and there aren't that many places to actually find a person to give you a lesson (in basic semi-automatic marksmanship - i.e. improve your aim). The Army Marksmanship manual is pretty cool, as is Ayoobs "Combat Handgunnery". When I see somebody good, I try to talk to them, most are former military, but some of the MKIII guys (scopes etc) are self taught.

Cheers - orangeusa