New air conditioner and furnace system ???

[Kevin]

Ok here goes. So i got back from the East Coast meet and the air conditioner wasn't working. So i waited a couple days and finally the wife says call someone. So i did. They came out and said it's broken. Ha! Ok they told me a little more than that.

In fact, the condenser outside is cheap and broken but good. It is also old enough and the furnace upstairs must be 30 years old give or take. They are recommending a completely new set up.

Trane? What are the general opinions? It is more efficient. The two stage condenser and two stage furnace. I'm not going to even say how much. That is another thing altogether.
~BUT~
My question or concern more specifically is the company doing the work. Would thst be just as important as the quality of the product? In other words, this company doesn't hire sub contractors, everyone is an employee. They all have background checks and such. So is it worth it to pay a little more for the piece of mind that comes with the company and their reputation? The guy flat out told

 

[Number9]

How long they have been in business.. the longer the better?
And make a call to the local BBB.

 

[Cholo]

I've had a Trane for about 15 years now and like it much more than the Bryant it replaced. I dealt with a company that's been in business for longer than I can remember.

Agreed, check with the BBB 1st!!! I dealt with a septic company several years ago and wasn't pleased at all. I checked with the BBB after the fact and they absolutely did NOT recommend that company. A hard lesson learned...

 

[Cooperhawk]

About four years ago we had the same problem. We installed a new Lenox system complete with a new AC. Been pretty happy with that.

At the time there was a nice tax re-bait of about $1500.00. Might want to check into that.

 

[Jeepnik]

First, stick with a well known brand. Trane (it's what I have) is certainly very good. So is York and Carrier. There are likely others, but I've worked with these companies on industrial systems. They are very, very good.

Second, get multiple estimates. You should be able after a few to figure out what btu rating you need on the system for your home. You might get a bid that looks good, but they may very well be trying to put in a system that is too small. Oh, and on that point, always get a system with higher btu rating than recommended. You can run a system at less than capacity a lot longer than trying to run one at or above capacity.

Third, if someone comes in and low balls the bid, don't just walk away, run. Like everything else in life, you will get exactly what you pay for.

Truth is, good systems installed by reliable and experienced folks are going to all run fairly close to the same money.

 

[ithaca4me]

I don't know I disagree with some of he other posts I work with large chillers and am licensed to work on all systems Trane is fine but a lot of their stuff is proprietary and hard to get parts but they are like the BMW of the business. I am sure the bid is outrageous but the bigger the company the more overhead. A new system 3 ton should be about 1100 for the furnace and 800 for the ac and 250 for the A coil I don't like these new high pressure units either but they are phasing out r-22 and it looks like 134 is next on the chopping block. Get more than one estimate and don't get to hung up on the brand and smaller companies do good work sometimes better.

 

[Bear Paw Jack]

I agree, get another opinion or two. Things are slow for these guys right now (at least here) make them show you the problem. Ask for multiple options. Insist on a heater (system) that you can use the same ducting, it will save you money. We just had a guy come out to get ours ready for winter to show us the heat registry is cracked and we need a new heater. The AC is still ok. System is only 13 years old. Newer systems don't seem to last as long. I don't need the most efficient. I've seen people go that way and replaced it after just a few years.

 

[Number9]

Yes, get several bids!

Always compare bids based on the same size unit and type duct work.
A trick with some dealers is to under size a unit or list one with a lower SEER rating.. then a smaller bid price can be given.
All metal duct cost more than ductboard.

 

[06ackley]

I work for a smaller HVAC company and our main brand is Trane.We also sell several other brands and sevice any brand.Personally I like the Trane units.They are easy so work on,i am a service guy,and they are pretty reliable.The install itself is also very important to how well a system will work.The best equipment wont work properly if not sized correctly.Ask if they do a heat loss/gain calculation to size the equipment.If I were to replace my current equipment it would be with a Trane two stage furnace but a single stage air conditioner,probably a 15i.

 

[Number9]

The old rule-of-thumb was 1 ton per 500 sq.ft. of living area here in east TN.

 

[Coogs]

Any of the big names are good, Carrier, Trane, or Lennox. I'm partial to Lennox, been a dealer for 30+ years. We work on all brands of equipment so I am very familiar with all of them. STAY AWAY from the big box stores/lumber yards as well as sears. These people MAY sell one of the big three, but contract out to dealers at a fixed rate, so you usually get the job done very cheaply. Look for an independent dealer, check him out through the BBB and see if he is a member. Local Chamber of Commerce may have them rated also. Get multiple quotes. Even as someone trying to sell something I suggest to the customer to get other quotes, competition is what makes the world go round! Make sure the installer supports the product! Stocks parts, trained service tech's, ask if their tech's are NATE rated (national testing and certification system), find out what their service rates are as well as premium hours. All of the big names also market a "secondary" brand name. Carrier, Bryant, Lennox, Aire-Flow also marketed under Ducane, both of which are good, solid products, can't remember what Trane does, you also have Rheem which has Winchester. In your neck of the woods you may also run into Heil Quaker which is the same as Tempstar which isn't that bad either. Each of these manufacturers have very good web sites for the consumer, check out their products. I'd stay away from the high efficiency two speed compressors, they can be a maintenance nightmare! There is also Goodman products out there, I consider them the low end, but they are serviceable. As a side not, IMHO, stay the hell away from Angies List and that other rating thing. Dealers have to pay to get rated on it, from what I have been told, so, I really just consider that more of a gossip site, how is it regulated? What if it was just a personality conflict between dealer/customer? I think you get my point. Get the dealer to give you names of his customers in you area. A good dealer will NEVER have a problem giving you those names, I know I don't. Hope this helps. Coogs. By the way, make sure they do a heat loss/heat gain evaluation of your home. I ALWAYS do. They will have to measure exterior walls, windows, take into consideration type of windows, insulation values, type of construction of walls, etc., etc., DON'T let them just kinda walk through and say "well you need a 100,000 btu furnace and 2 ton A/C" If they do that IMHO, they are NOT a professional. Don't go by that square foot BS, it COULD get you close, but it is not exact.

 

[Number9]

"Don't go by that square foot BS, it COULD get you close, but it is not exact."

That "square foot BS" was used before you were in business with the computer heat load calculator! :mrgreen:

 

[Jeepnik]

"Don't go by that square foot BS, it COULD get you close, but it is not exact."

That "square foot BS" was used before you were in business with the computer heat load calculator! :mrgreen:

Yep, and once us old fogeys used slide rules. Computers and calculators are much more exact and easier to use.

Seriously, a good estimate will include running the numbers and they should be close from one estimate to another. As mentioned anyone not providing data to back up their estimate or coming much lower than others is suspect.

 

[Kevin]

Thank you all! Wow. Ok the house is about 2900 downstairs where this unit is. We have another room upstairs above the garage but that is on a separate system. So 5 Ton. He also did some calculating and the returns for our system are not big enough. We can use the same ducts but the grill openings aren't big enough. He said something about 2000 cfm. Right now we are around 1200, so the air isn't circulating easily enough.

Interestingly enough, you guys have all given me plenty of advice tonight to make up my mind. I know we need several estimates... The first house my wife and I ever bought? We bought the first one we looked at. When we moved to Dallas, we looked at 4 houses. Sorry to go against the rule, but one estimate is good enough. I know what this stuff costs more or less. And someone pointed out they will all be in the same ballpark.

 

[Coogs]

Hey 9, how do you know how long I been in business? And by the way that square Ft. BS was BS back then anyways. A good contractor always did load calculations, if he didn't do it the supplier he dealt with would usually have someone on staff that did it, that is a good supplier. Back then it was just done by hand, based upon the Manual J, by the way, it was around back then also. Today it just happens to be done with a computer, doesn't take as long and you don't have to look all your values up in the Manual. By the way, we been around 60+ years, third generation. Coogs.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I got several estimates when I replaced mine last spring. I went with Carrier and a well known local a/c company. I think Trane is overpriced and their air handler has problems with the design and the plastic cabinet. The SEER is important but you can get too efficient to be dependable and they get costly. I went with a 16.5 SEER unit single stage (3 ton) with a variable speed air handler. The humidistat keeps humidity down.

For a larger house the two-stage compressor makes sense. Savings because of efficiency are immediate. Don't forget to have your federal energy rebate applied to the overall cost.

http://www.carrier.com/homecomfort/en/us/products/heating-and-cooling/air-conditioners/split-system-air-conditioners/

 

[ilikerams]

Just replaced our thirty year old furnace and ac on sept. 24th. Took them about 5 and a half hours. Got bids from three companies. All were very close. I've worked as a union electrician in this area for 46 years and have worked with these three companies on different jobs several times. Somebody quoted some prices earlier in this thread for furnaces and ac units but I looked all over on the internet and never found prices like that. It cost $6000 and I'm very happy with the result. Went from an 80% efficient Rheem to a 96% efficient Lennox 2-stage and a Lennox 2-ton 13 seer ac. I could have gone to a higher seer rated ac but the price difference would have take me 16 years to make up. I'm 70years old , not going to worry about it.

 

[Number9]

Hey 9, how do you know how long I been in business? And by the way that square Ft. BS was BS back then anyways. A good contractor always did load calculations, if he didn't do it the supplier he dealt with would usually have someone on staff that did it, that is a good supplier. Back then it was just done by hand, based upon the Manual J, by the way, it was around back then also. Today it just happens to be done with a computer, doesn't take as long and you don't have to look all your values up in the Manual. By the way, we been around 60+ years, third generation. Coogs.

Well.. you said.. "been a dealer for 30+ years".
Yes, I know about Manual J and even used it way back when! :mrgreen:
The 1 ton per 500 sq.ft. was a "guide" and not a standard.. it worked out close to running load calculations.. may not in PA?

 

[toysoldier]

We replaced heater and A/C a few years ago. Multiple estimates were WAY off for size and cost. Lots of high-pressure sales tactics, Sears was the worst. Went with a local company that had been in business for a long time. Their bid was nex to lowest, size right in the middle of the estimates. The guy who came out had a 3x5 card with info from the original installation they had done in '74. Replaced a Singer with a Comfortmaker high efficiency. Paid a little extra for a DC blower motor. Works great. Remember, when you buy a Name, you pay for the name.

 

[Coop]

Hey 9, how do you know how long I been in business? And by the way that square Ft. BS was BS back then anyways. A good contractor always did load calculations, if he didn't do it the supplier he dealt with would usually have someone on staff that did it, that is a good supplier. Back then it was just done by hand, based upon the Manual J, by the way, it was around back then also. Today it just happens to be done with a computer, doesn't take as long and you don't have to look all your values up in the Manual. By the way, we been around 60+ years, third generation. Coogs.

Howdy,

Quoted this one since it was shorter than Coogs OP. Bought a 90 year old house here in Mt. Lebanon, PA in 1994. I had the original early 1950's FGA furnace replaced with a external air Lennox G-2 (sp?) FGA before I moved in. Still going strong, although my installer (neighbor up the street) has since passed. Unfortunately, my old basement headroom is too low for an effective central AC evaporator unit on top of my Lennox FGA furnace, so I went with 4 (5000 - 7000 BTU) window units in our house. We do not use AC very much here in western PA, but they are very good when needed.

Question for Coogs: should I remove them every year or leave them in their windows?

Best.

 

[Coogs]

Coop, 6 one, half a dozen the other. IF, you cover them over exterior, leaves, dirt, grass clippings as well as critters find their way into them over the winter if they are left installed. so covering them is important. Also depends on how well they are sealed in the window. Most window units don't seal well so the let a lot of cold air in during the winter. Small units that are easily removed are no question, take 'em out. Now the big, 1 1/2+ ton units (1 ton equates to approximately 12,000 Btu's), you know, the ones that feel like they way 1 1/2+ tons and takes at least 2 people to even move them, I'd seal them up interior as well as exterior. There again, 'm getting a little older, and those units are getting heavier, or is that because I'm getting older? Coop, I know you a little older than I, so....... :wink: :wink: Oh yeah, 9, if you would have paid attention to my post, when I said Lennox, I was referring to being a "Lennox" dealer for 30+ years. My business has been around 60+ years, I've been at it myself over 45, started going with my Dad over 49 years ago. A good professional would/should do a heat loss/gain calculation. We have since day one. In the beginning Dad had a supplier do it, then when I got involved I did them by hand, then computers came along. Coogs.

 

[Number9]

Coogs..

Well.. say what ya mean! LOL!

The 1 ton per 500 sq. ft. was to give Kevin a guide to tell if the estimates was close to the size needed.. it wasn't to replace a heat load calculation on an install.. o'tay? :mrgreen:
On a change-out.. I always asked the owner if the unit being replaces was doing satisfactorily during both winter and summer.. and about cold or hot spots in the house, noise, etc.
Every home is a little different and even doing a load calculation can vary to some degree.

Best at ya!
-Wayne

 

[Coogs]

So did I, but I ALWAYS DID A HEAT LOSS/HEAT GAIN regardless, anything less is for an neophyte, or someone incompetent! Nuff said, I'm done.Coogs

 

[ronto]

The most important factor is WHO installs the system. I've had bids from Trane, Carrier, Bryant, and American Standard. The bids for the same system varied by as much as $1,500. I'm going with American Standard heat pump system since it has been the highest rated in Consumer Reports for years and the local dealer has been in business for over 20 years and has been recommended by several neighbors.

 

[blume357]

The most important factor is WHO installs the system. I've had bids from Trane, Carrier, Bryant, and American Standard. The bids for the same system varied by as much as $1,500. I'm going with American Standard heat pump system since it has been the highest rated in Consumer Reports for years and the local dealer has been in business for over 20 years and has been recommended by several neighbors.

I agree with Ron T... who installs it is way more important than the brand.... find someone who is referred by numerous folks you know... that should not be that hard. I had a lady tell me she asked on facebook who to call in my profession last year the reason she called me was she got 7 replies that same day.. they all recommended me.

Oh and it was great to shoot with you last weekend.... I haven't tried the Texas sauce yet.

 

[Jeepnik]

We replaced heater and A/C a few years ago. Multiple estimates were WAY off for size and cost. Lots of high-pressure sales tactics, Sears was the worst. Went with a local company that had been in business for a long time. Their bid was nex to lowest, size right in the middle of the estimates. The guy who came out had a 3x5 card with info from the original installation they had done in '74. Replaced a Singer with a Comfortmaker high efficiency. Paid a little extra for a DC blower motor. Works great. Remember, when you buy a Name, you pay for the name.

True, you pay for the name. But it wouldn't have become a "name" if they hadn't done things right and treated customers fairly.

 

[Number9]

Well.. if you get someone like Coogs and myself (combined we have almost 100 years experience).. who ALWAYS runs a heat load.. you want be able to find better!! :wink:

 

[mjoinercpd]

Always go with a company. Had a "licensed and recommended friend" install my last unit on a rental house. Found out six months later after is quit working the second time, a company came out and repaired it. Also contacted the company who sold the unit to my friend and they found out he had never registered it with them because he had no license and I had no warranty. Go with an established local business every time.

 

[Jim Puke]

Good luck...I have just replaced both of mine.

I have a friend that has owned a HVAC business for 30yrs and he has done my service and replacement work.

 

[ruger randy]

Kevin
I don't know ANYTHING about this ad but a new 5 ton Lennox unit for sale in Dallas. $1000

214-641-5004 call for info; looks like it is located off I35

I think its the unit only with installation extra??? maybe they do installation for extra???
call at your own risk..........just looks like a great Price

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ruger randy