My take on the current flag uproar........

[Bob Wright]

Most of y'all know me and my roots. I was born and raised in the deep South, grew up in the segregated South of the 'Forties and 'Fifties. I say I was raised when blacks rode at the front of the train, at the back of the bus, and nowhere at all on airplanes. And as I observe the current comments regarding the Confederate Stars and Bars flag I try to look at all angles.

I try to picture Germany. Certainly I believe they should have monuments to their soldiers who fought in WW II, as we here in America honor our Confederate war dead. This, with the exception of course of those who were actually war criminals. And displaying a Nazi flag would certainly be offensive to me, as I would expect it be offensive to anyone who is a Jew. The Nazi flag was not the national flag of Germany, but rather of the Nazi party.

And also believe the Japanese should honor their war dead of WW II, those soldiers who, though badly misled and informed, fought with courage and determination. It is an honorable thing to rise to the service of one's country, ready to defend to death.

I've never flown a Confederate flag, of any sort. The only flags I have ever honored were the Stars and Stripes of my country, and the flag of the State of Tennessee.

In the Scriptures, the apostle Paul admonished those to refrain from eating meat in the presence of those who would be offended by that act. There was nothing wrong with the act itself, until it became genuinely offensive to others.

So if those vote to remove the Confederate emblems from their state flags, or remove the flag from the government property, I'll not feel offended nor hurt.
However, our statures honor men for their military service, and I will oppose those who would besmirch their memory and honor.

These are trying times, and I will do my very best to live in peace with my fellow citizens, and will expect the same from them.


Bob Wright

 

[pete44ru]

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Well said, Bob ! (ditto, BTW)


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[exavid]

As a lifetime Northerner whose relatives fought for the Union I agree totally with Bob's post.

 

[gramps]

As a Southener, who was raised with Negros living next door, helping in our home and on Grandpa's farm, We'uns take umbrage to 14% or less of the population to force our freedom of speech from our land! I have never flown a Confederate Flag, but by gum I will now! The NAACP has not done one thing to advance the colored people's standing. I have Black/Negro friends, and they are aghast at what is happening too.
gramps

 

[SAJohn]

Interesting that this time they are going after the first rather than the second in our Bill of Rights. The attack on the Confederate statues really irks me.

 

[Tom W]

As I saw on a dock somewhere on the Suwannee River

Heritage, not Hate

 

[GunnyGene]

Doesn't matter what you or I think, do or say Bob. This recent serendipitous episode is being steered and engineered by professional rabble rousers for the sole purpose of slicing and dicing the USA into bite size chunks that can be easily digested by enemies foreign and domestic. And they are very good at it. There will be more of the same, and more frequently.

 

[FastEd]

So, the law says anybody can burn an American flag any time or any where.
But people in South Carolina can't display a Rebel battle flag because it might offend somebody?
What is everybody afraid of?

I'm glad to see that there are still people in South Carolina that are proud of their History.
What are all the other objectors proud of and what kind of flag do they fly? How many of them or their children even know what the Civil War was?

 

[Number9]

The Confederate Battle Flag is part of the Confederate States of America.
So, how can one part be condemned and not all the rest?
Using the Battle Flag by hate groups has always been condemned by both the Sons of Confederate Veterans and the United Daughters of the Confederacy.
And if you'll notice every old picture of reunions or portraits of Confederate soldiers with a flag, it was the Battle Flag.
I just think it's a damn shame to use or view a flag as a symbol hate and totally disregard the fact that nearly 100,000 Americans died under the flag!

I guess it's the same to view the gun as a symbol of hate and not the shooter?

Yes.. he's Black..

 

[Number9]

And yes, they are Cherokee...

Cherokee Confederates reunion in New Orleans, 1903.

 

[southernfarmer1021]

There are literally thousands of books written on an all topics Confederate- the causes of war, the battles, the generals, the soldiers, reconstruction, etc. etc. So it is blatantly ignorant to distill the war, Southern culture, and Southern people down to a single symbol- the Confederate battle flag. But now yet again, the left (which is the most modern form of large aggressive centralized government that our Confederate ancestors resisted) aggressively seeks to silence, demonize, and dominate us. You know they are desperate when they compare my heritage to the likes of Nazis. As perhaps you may learn if you have a moment and an open mind- the Confederacy shares zero comparison to a psychotic genocidal regime that invaded and conquered its neighbors and massacred millions of innocent people.

We all know that hate groups and racist individuals have used the Confederate battle flag to promote hatred and instill fear in minorities. This is an understandable driving force against our flag. However, millions of us fly and display our flag not out of hatred- but out of pride and honor for both our Confederate ancestors and to symbolize our embrace of Southern culture and values. Just as we should not believe that every Muslim wants to put on a bomb vest and blow up Westerners, it should also be accepted that we Southerners are not all racists.

Another dominating argument against the battle flag is that it represents treason towards the United States government. One has to look no further than the Declaration of Independence to understand that no treason was committed in Southern secession. The document states "Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government." This is precisely what the South did and to this end, it should be clarified that there was no “Civil War” and nor was that ensuing war of Southern choosing.

A “Civil War” is defined as a war in which one or more groups fight for control over a SINGLE government. The Confederate states, at no point in time, ever had intention or took action to overthrow the existing U.S. Federal government. As pointed out, we seceded from a voluntary union based on principles established in the original founding documents in order to form OUR OWN government. A more correct term for that unnecessary armed conflict is the War for Southern Independence. Following secession the Confederate government sent diplomats to Washington D.C. to establish a formal and peaceful accord between the two nations- but such talks were outright rejected by Lincoln.

The war was not of our choosing but it certainly was needed by Lincoln to justify invasion and conquering of an unwilling people (that sounds more Nazi to me than our Confederacy!). When secession took place it meant that all property within seceded state lines was Southern property. Lincoln intentionally retained Federal troops in key locations such as Fort Sumter to provoke the South to strike first. When we repulsed the occupying Federal troops from Charleston Harbor in early 1861 (where no Yankee life was lost in so doing) this became a good enough call to arms to launch a full scale invasion of the Confederate States of America.

Of course, the predominating sentiment against our battle flag is based on the false pretense that the Confederacy was formed out of a limited and basic desire to protect slavery. Before proceeding it is important to state that there is no question that slavery played a major and ominous role in the events that led up to secession, but it is not the foundation for which the Confederacy was formed or why millions of Southern men fought four grueling years against a vastly outnumbering and superiorly equipped enemy. It is a fact that 80-90% of Confederate soldiers were NOT slave owners nor had any vested interest in the slave trade. Instead our Confederacy was established out of a basic desire to restore just authority and balance between State and Centralized government. Our Southern soldiers instead saw themselves fighting an identical war against tyrannical government just as their forefathers had done against the British.

It is extremely interesting to note that the Confederate Constitution is almost an exact replica of the U.S. Constitution with important additions and clarifications of words regarding states rights. When it comes to slavery- both the US Constitution and the Confederate Constitution legalized African servitude. The major difference in the Constitutions was that the original U.S. version calls slaves “others” or “such persons” whereas the Confederate constitution calls a slave a slave. It is also extremely interesting to note that the Confederate constitution expressly prohibits the importation of slaves from outside the Confederacy. Sure, the Confederate Constitution protected the institution but it did nothing to expand it. But guess who also protected the institution of slavery? The answer is Abraham Lincoln.

Lincoln made clear before his election and in his inaugural address that he had NO intention of abolishing slavery where it existed...not because he liked slavery, but because it was TOO DAMN profitable to abolish! The powerful industrial giant of the Northern states relied heavily in Southern cotton tainted by the blood of the slaves that picked it. Lincoln was certainly no civil rights champion- in the Lincoln-Douglas Presidential debates of 1860 Lincoln clarified that he believed that a black man could never be equal to a white man. He was also an advocate of shipping all the slaves back to Africa or the Caribbean Islands. The only reason that Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation was to expedite a Confederate loss, not because he believed in equal rights. Lincoln said "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that." As you can see, Lincoln was some pioneer for civil rights. (So where is the outrage over the Lincoln portraits and monuments we have in public buildings?)

The reason for which revisionist history has perpetuated the myth of slavery-induced secession is an attempt to cleanse the unprecedented horrors of that unnecessary war from Yankee hands as unavoidable and necessary. The real reasons for which Lincoln fought to coerce the Southern states to remain in an involuntary Union was a simple necessity of economics. Without the Southern states- and the heavy tarrifs imposed upon its agrarian based economy- the Federal government would lose a dangerous amount of revenue at a time when national debt was ballooning to dangerous levels.

I could probably write an actual entire book on this subject- but no need when so many already exist- I simply write as concisely as I can to attempt to educate those against my heritage and flag. This subject is more complicated than most Americans will ever understand or care to understand. The bottom line is our freedoms are under relentless attack from an ever expanding Federal government. Sure, I’m not optimistic this will change any of the opposition’s mind- but this is where I stand- I always have and always will. If you’re still indifferent to your closed minded view of my flag, my history, my culture- that’s your ignorance, not mine- and I’m offended that you’re offended.

 

[Number9]

southernfarmer1021...

I'm saving you post!

 

[Ray Newman]

Here's my take on this and the left's reaction(s): "never let a good crisis go to waste...."

 

[Colonel Daddy]

Southernfarmer1021, I too will be saving your post. I will copy it and e-mail it to myself.
Good to know someone else shares my views but could express them so much more eloquently than I. Thank you.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Southernfarmer1021, you have presented a well-conceived post, perhaps the most concise one I have seen. I agree with essentially all you have written. Good work.

That said, I feel I must offer up a single observation that may not sit well with respect to the entire issue. When all is said and done, the question of slavery, which played a huge part in the whole episode, resolves into a single consideration . . . was/is slavery acceptable from a moral perspective? This conundrum taints the whole issue of "states' rights" when one asks if the practice is justifiable anywhere, the US southern states or anywhere else in the world? We will never escape the cloud of this issue hanging over the discussion. The flag in question is merely a handy symbol around which proponents on either side of the issue can rally, and has become a PC tool for the left to use in order to force public attention and the media's biased coverage. That our "leaders" see fit to fall victim to this travesty says much about our national divisiveness.

And that said, thanks for the post. I'll be saving it for future reference.

 

[Bull Barrel]

To the OP, this uproar is not about the Stars and Bars. It is about the Battle Flag. The Stars and Bars is the nickname for the First Confederate National Flag, which looks similar to Old Glory, which is how the Battle Flag came to be to distinguish Sothern armies from Northern on the battlefield.

 

[Fox Mike]

Well said 'southernfarmer1021'! I have never flown the Confederate flag but I also have never flown the British flag. Parts of this country have been under each. I have no animosity toward my British friends living here nor have I any against relatives of those that fought for the Confederate States of America. If either wishes to fly their flag, then so long as it is flown properly, and not higher than Old Glory then by all means have at it.

 

[wunbe]

This whole flap serves as yet another undeniable proof of the flourishing of human folly.

The war between the states, after all, was our second civil war. There was blood letting, ugly passions got released, and injustices prevailed during and after the Revolutionary War too. And, these conditions, scaled to allow for the smaller population base and considered in light of the fact that they covered the whole of the settled area instead of just border areas and the south, also had devastating impacts worthy of 'Bloody Shirt' waving. Have you seen any Tory flags lately or heard any prattle about the good old days under the King?

Why is this flag still so revered 150 years after it went down in defeat? It can't be as a desire to divide again. Southerners by and large disproportionately have stood in defense of the United States in all our past and present wars. They inculcate their kids with the values this country needs to survive foreign threats and its own suicidal tendencies to indulge in wacky social experiments, rule by political charlatans, and entrenched corruption. Yet they wallow in an idealized lost cause bereft of any mention of the narrow mindedness, systemic cruelty, criminal stupidity, and exploitation of the many by the few that it entailed. Those evils could not hold sway today in their own communities because they themselves would not allow it. The dichotomy bespeaks a mix of perversity, willing denial, and addictive captivity to demagoguery of profound proportions.

The heroism of those who died under this flag -- even though wasted on a lost cause with devastating consequences -- deserves to be respected and publicly honored. But turning a blind eye on all aspects of the heritage has allowed the most despicable racist and religious bigots to pursue their mad designs wrapped in the old battle flag. Why good people have allowed that symbol of their heritage to be so sullied without demur is beyond me.

Given the past as prologue, the consequences just being felt are only likely to further exacerbate the folly .

wunbe

 

[RugerHound]

SouthernFarmer1021's post is one of the best I've seen, and reflects not only my understanding, but my views on the topic as well. Like it or not, the "Civil War", or the "War Between the States", or "The War of Northern Aggression" (however you like to know it) DID happen, and it impacted every American in one way or another. It IS part of the fabric of our United States history.

But there is no moral high ground for either side on the subject of slavery, which is what this hubub is supposedly all about after all. The Confederate States are no more guilty than the Union States, nor are the Union States any less guilty than the Confederate States as it pertains to the use of slave labor for profit. That fact is absolutely not arguable by anyone with even an elementary awareness of U.S. history. And yet the American flag still flies in spite of our collective history with the use of slave labor while the Confederate flags are being banished from our consciousness for the sake of political gain.

Welcome to the fundamental transformation....

 

[contender]

It's refreshing to see such a post as southernfarmers one above. Facts, history, not altered by folks who wish to pick & choose what they want to remember & enforce.

I'm a southerner. I'm proud of my roots. I had family fight on both sides during the war between the states.
Now, they want to abolish all the battle flags or any public display of it. They want Confederate statues honoring our war hero's removed. In essence, they want to wipe out the Southern heritage & memories of that war. I say, fine. If you do so, then wipe out the entire memory of slavery, and have all persons of black heritage be forbidden from mentioning slavery, or any other subversion they want to ex pout. Have all persons who claim racial subversion because of slavery or blame their ills on slavery STOP & SHUT UP!

If it's good enough to remove all forms of Southern heritage of the war of Northern Aggression, then by all means, remove it ALL!

 

[john guedry]

The problem is if you win the war, you get to write the history books.

 

[stevemb]

My take, even being a yankee, it's about history and heritage. I've no problem with that. I've a "Don't Tread on Me " flag here, myself.

 

[RolandDeschain]

The historical genocide is now being extended to Civil War GAMES….

http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/25/technology/apple-pulls-civil-war-games/

 

[GunnyGene]

The historical genocide is now being extended to Civil War GAMES….

http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/25/technology/apple-pulls-civil-war-games/

The undertow with this is huge. Betcha somebody tries to ban "Y'all" :roll: .

 

[stevemb]

Ya'll, just wannna get a last'n in... !

 

[Cholo]

The inmates, and those who should be in it, really are running the asylum...

 

[graygun]

Throw away or surrender that flag...how about those guns...and that "hate speech" bible lest we offend!

This just sickens me and I grew up in MD,not the deep south.

 

[don44]

Does anyone believe this is the same country it was 6 or 7 years ago? :roll: :roll:

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

One person's opinion, worth only what you paid for it! And nobody's gotta agree:

I can't say I'm a real fan of Bruce Springsteen, but he does have a couple of songs that push certain buttons for me. One is "Born in the USA" and the other is "Glory Days." The latter is essentially the story of a bunch of fat, balding types sitting around a pitcher of beer reliving their exploits in high school decades before, many as jocks. If it weren't such a sad commentary on human nature, it would be hilarious: here are guys who haven't done much of anything as special or worthy of remembrance with their lives since they were handed their HS diplomas as they did in some football game, or other event, now long ago, pretending it's still important.

We can argue endlessly about the causes of the War of Rebellion, as the books in the US Government repository section of one of our local universities, published during the actual conflict, call it, the Civil War as many of us prefer, or any of the sugar (or vitriol!) coated variants today's commentators like, but not a single one of us, or them, was there nor KNOWS one iota about it first hand, and only BELIEVES what we've been taught, told or read. And it's no secret that much belief can be impossible to prove nor disprove. It's often mentioned that the winner writes the history books, but there's a corollary: the loser writes his own books, trying to soften the blows and make the wounds hurt less by calling the winner a bad guy. With that in mind, I think we can agree that "war stories" all too often start as horrific experiences which might best be forgotten. Instead, somehow, win or lose, they grow legs, and over enough time and beer, endless retellings transform even the worst of them into "grand and glorious" events in the memories of those either telling or listening to them. As such, every time I see these arguments about that flag, I hear Bruce's song in the back of my head.

My family's kinda like the old saying about road apples: at least one of 'em can be found on most any road in this country. There are Yankees, Southerners, easterners, westerners, and probably even "a horse thief or an Irishman in the woodpile" as my maternal Granny who didn't care much for my father's side sometimes put it. I guess almost 400 years on this continent leads to at least a little diversity! But I identify as an American first, and all those other associations are incidental. I have no control over what happened long before I even arrived on scene--nor does anyone else--so there's no need for anyone to call me names based on past geography. I may be in the minority, and I know saying this will irritate some of you into needing some Gold Bond powder for your knickers, but, TO ME, that flag's about as significant as seeing one of those fat balding types try to squeeze into his old high school letterman's jacket for one more homecoming game, or all the alma maters' flags on porches in a couple of months when college football season begins again. "Oh, yeah, another one of those..." sometimes goes thru my mind, too, as I hum a couple of lines of Bruce's song.

In other words, fly that flag if you like to, if it means something to you, or even if you just plain want to! Stars and Stripes or Stars and Bars, the blood shed under either of those two flags a century and a half ago was mixed on the battlefields to help guarantee your right to do so remains today. If you don't like seeing it flown, look in another direction. Maybe you'll find something you like to look at there. But regardless of which side of this fence you're on, please remember YOUR opinion is no more nor less important than anyone else's. That war's over. It matters not who you think won or lost, or why, it's a done deal. We're all free to have our own memories as long as we don't bother others with them too much... or get too bothered by theirs!

Rick C

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Only problem is, Bob, that there are quite a large number of folks alive right now who feel they are deserving of special consideration today because of perceived or real injustices perpetrated 150 years ago. I have mistreated no one and am not responsible for any grievances these folks may have, nor should my taxes be spent in an attempt to make them feel better, no matter how often or how piteously they drag up old "wounds". None of the current crop was there, so all I can say is "Get over yourself and get on with your life."

As you say, all JMHO.