more research, XR3 and XR3-RED grip frames

[chet15]

OK, catching up on some more research I started well over a decade ago on the founders markings inside the OM XR3 and XR3-RED grip frames.
Looks like two different markings exist for the XR3 and there are three different types of XR3-RED grip frame, important stuff to know for originality if somebody tries improving their gun with a better condition grip frame.

XR3:
1. "ALCOA" with large "G" December 1953 to at least 5/22/57 (ship date).
2. "ALCOA" with small "G" 10/8/57 through the rest of XR3.

XR3-RED:
1. "ALCOA G" 7/31/62 to at least 2/4/65
2. "ALCOA G2" with solid grip dowel 2/15/67 to at least 6/3/71
3. DJ in a circle with roll pin grip dowel From at least 6/24/71 to end of OM

I'm not sure on this but think the rollpin was changed from the solid pin concurrently with the change to the DJ marked frames. DJ - Doehler Jarvis

If anybody can improve the ship dates of these varieties, please let me know. Am especially interested in knowing what that two year period on the XR3-RED grip frames look like between Feb. '65 and Feb '67.

Chet15

 

[flatgate]

August, '64, LW 200088S, Alcoa G No surprises.

I've only one other gun in the requested ranges but it's sporting a New Model Stainless Steel grip frame

flatgate

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Please tell me this won't create yet another entire set of "variations".

 

[Chance]

XR3-RED:
1. "ALCOA G" 7/31/62 to at least 2/4/65

SC5,
XR3-RED,
SN# 60-01269,
RENE production 1969, Shipped May 69
ALCOA G founders mark

Will call Ruger tomorrow and get ship date.

 

[weaselmeatgravy]

Five fours and an ace. RSS4X #444441, no ship date but should be 1966.

Alcoa G (very poorly cast) with solid dowel.

 

[chet15]

Please tell me this won't create yet another entire set of "variations".

Nope. That's not what I want or what I'm looking for. But there are a certain amount of supposedly "rare" guns out there that folks spent big $ on which can be proved or disproven with things like this (ala the 5 non-INC rollmarks that are known).
Its all about originality.
Chet15

 

[chet15]

XR3-RED:
1. "ALCOA G" 7/31/62 to at least 2/4/65
SC5,
XR3-RED,
SN# 60-01269,
RENE production 1969, Shipped May 69
ALCOA G founders mark
Will call Ruger tomorrow and get ship date.

Do you know if this gun has ever been back to the factory? For conversion kit maybe?
This might be the one thing that could "skew" the final figures. That is...a gun being sent back to the factory and having a different grip frame put on it than was on originally.
Not saying thats what happened in this case, but...???
Chet15

 

[Ale-8(1)]

OK, please explain to me, a rank amateur, how this will manifest itself in the serious collector community.

Let's say you have a gun lettered to have shipped in, say, 1961 . . . but upon examination you discover it wears a grip frame bearing "Alcoa with small G". Will this anomaly be written off as a "parts bin" situation or as a "very rare variation"? Or will some merely say it's a "screwdriver variation"?

Nothing can be "proven" (or disproven) by a component that can be changed in a couple of minutes, IMHO.

I'm not saying this isn't interesting information, but I'll bet it certainly complicates matters for those who are after the ne plus ultra of collectible Rugers.

 

[flatgate]

Previous owner upgraded grip frames w/o knowing the varieties?

Oh, dash the thought!



flatgate

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Guess we're gonna need some really good pictures of each of these "variations".

 

[Chance]

XR3-RED:
Do you know if this gun has ever been back to the factory? For conversion kit maybe?

The gun doesn't have the conversion kit, at least at this point. Seems I read recently that factory conversions had an R stamped somewhere on the frame. Nothing stamped on it.

No telling where this gun has been before I bought it in Oct 07 at a Glendale, AZ pawn shop.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Last one I saw, there was an "R" stamped on the bottom flat of the main frame, only visible after the grip frame was removed. It was not a huge, obvious stamp, either.

 

[rugerguy]

No, I think there should be a "noted" time frame for which frame is "normally" to be found on any given vintage gun, and yes, as Ale -8 points out there can and will still be times when a frame of one era may end up on a later shipped gun and as well vice-versa, if ( as Chad points out) the gun may have be returned for ANY service, or safety update........I just happen to like to know what the casting designations and eras are, good to know.
Thing is after 50 years of the old models being out in the field and "in use" there is unlimited changes that have already taken place by every collector that ever "cleaned" up or made their gun "better"....... :roll:
( wish I had a nickel for every old model XR-3 and 'red' frame we ever sold in 3 gun shops and thousands of gun shows since the early 60's....)

 

[Chance]

When I called Ruger this morning for the ship date I asked the nice lady for a letter. Will the letter state if the gun has been modified in any way by the factory?

Frame shows no signs of being stamped.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Doubt that the "letter" would mention it. There's a chance the service department would be able to acknowledge conversion, depending on when it took place.

Doesn't appear yours has ever been done, however.

 

[rugerguy]

they were NOT marked in the beginning with the "R" this came sometime later, when they made the "safety updates" and I do NOT think the service department will release that info, but may note if the gun is sent in for "another" update, at a future date, that "this gun was already done before...." interesting to see or hear what happens THEN............. :roll:

 

[Ale-8(1)]

I know that if you try to buy parts for an Old Model they will insist you send it in for the "conversion" unless they can verify it has already been done . . . thus I'm pretty sure they have some records, but I don't know how far back they go.



And I apologize for aiding in the hijacking of Chad's original thread. This grip frame info is of interest. I'm not yet sure we really appreciate what impact it may have on the hobby.

 

[chet15]

Yes, as Rugerguy said, my intent is not to confuse everybody with the types of markings found on grip frames, but to find out for sure what "era's" that grip frames with particular markings were used. Yes, grip frames are one of the easiest things to change, as are grips. But how often does everybody think a grip frame would really be changed in a gun's life (only we collectors, right?).
If the data comes out that a certain marking is found on 95% of all the guns within a certain era, then we can be pretty certain what grip frame variety was used during that time.
But I don't want to see a DJ marked grip frame on a gun that was supposedly made in 1953! And I know of one such example today that one individual spent one heckuva lot of $ on!!
Chet15

 

[mattsbox99]

My BKH36 30-41835 has the Alcoa G 2 and solid grip dowel. It has the wrong grip panels on it so I really wanted to check, thanks for the info Chet!

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Chet15, will this be discussed in your upcoming book?