More on "Free Spin" in New Version Vaquero

[Carry_Up]

There is a general misunderstanding of the "free spin" feature of the newest New Vaquero designs. I don't pretend to know everything about it, but a lot of incorrect information is being presented. Here is a u-toob video to use as a starting point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoh5lSc6Ah0

The main point to gather from this video is that these guns tend to "lock up" soon after they are purchased. The lockup is during the loading/unloading sequence when the loading gate is open. The cylinder won't rotate in either direction. (Please see photos and discussions in 2 threads below.) "Cylinder won't rotate when the gate is open" is a serious problem; what is lacking is an understanding of why.

Note first that the gun in its new condition is not set up for "free spin". The cylinder will normally not rotate in the reverse direction anyway. The real problem is that the cylinder will not advance in the forward direction to permit loading.

The maker of the video doesn't understand how the cylinder/pawl relationship works. What is new on the newest version is that the pawl is supposed to withdraw completely flush with the pawl window when the hammer is down. Problems begin to happen if the pawl does not completely withdraw to its flush position. If the pawl is not flush, the cylinder ratchet will stub on the upper corner of the top pawl surface - which is the portion of the pawl that sticks out of the window. That is the real problem. Previous versions did not have this problem because the pawl position at hammer down was significantly higher on the ratchets, allowing the ratchets to push the pawl backwards during loading rotation.

Removal of the spring loading retaining plunger will apparently allow the cylinder to free spin. This is merely a fortunate accidental by-product of the real difficulty. Since it is easy to do, that's a simple way to get the gun back in operation. It does not fix the real issue with the pawl, however. Nothing is being done to the pawl to change its position, or its operation. If, as some incorrectly believe, the pawl is wearing away the pawl window after only 100 rounds, the gun should be completely useless by 1000 rounds. I don't think so. The pawl is not "banging around and damaging the frame". It is simply not functioning as intended. The lower pawl projection is not fully engaging the "scratch" in the grip frame to allow it to fully withdraw. Note that spring combinations all work against this new feature. The hammer spring must overcome the spring force in the base pin, the pawl spring and the firing pin spring to completely move the hammer into fully down position. As set up at the factory, even a strong main spring is not able to fully retract the pawl.

There is a a better way to approach the problem, but perhaps others can carry on with those solutions which are detailed in the Kuhnhausen book and elsewhere. I wish this version had never come off the line, frankly, because it upsets the original design of the pawl system. For those who like the free spin idea - no problem. But, if you really believe that the pawl is carving out your frame (it is not!) note that removing the retaining plunger will not change the pawl operation one bit.

Carry_Up

 

[contender]

Good post!

 

[cadillo]

Well, you have certainly convinced me that I've been possibly looking at this problem from the wrong angle, and thank you for it, but simply telling someone that they have a problem is not a solution. You cite the Kuhnhausen book as having information germane to this issue, but having again just now referred to that book, there is still no reference to either the New Vaquero or mid frame flat top models, which are the problem models in this regard, at least not that I can locate in my copy of the book. If you can cite a chapter, page number etc. where Mr. Kuhnhausen addresses this model and its inner workings, I would really like to know.

Or, perhaps you know of some pawl modification or aftermarket replacement part designed to address this issue. I really do hope that you have something more to share regarding an actual fix, as a friend of mine has one of the mid frame flat tops that is problematic in this regard, and I would like to get it sorted out.

 

[hmeier4799]

Wow!!!
That is the same problem that I started a post on12/20 about.
I finally got disgusted and assembled the gun with the intent of returning to Ruger
or scrapping.
After assembling I could not rotate the cylinder, no surprise.
With some maneuvering I was able to cock the hammer but still could not rotate the cylinder for loading.
I put the gun down and later picked it up and was able to rotate the cylinder as intended!!!!!
How do I handle my gun such as not to have this problem?
Seems to me that Ruger owes a "fix" for this problem.

 

[cadillo]

Given the number of Cowboy Action shooters who undoubtedly are using the New Vaqueros, surely someone has come up with a fix for this issue by now. Hopefully they will chime in and share with us some remedy.

 

[Chuck 100 yd]

I own three sets of NM Rugers with the reverse indexing system and have NOT had any issue at all in the way they operate. They are as slick as can be.

 

[cadillo]

I have a blued Bisley and a SS Flat Top, and both have always been OK. The Bisley was converted to free spin, just because I like that mode of operation on guns that I shoot a lot. My point is that a lot of these guns have no issues at all, but some others do, as does my buddy's gun, which hangs up on a regular basis; a frustrating problem to be sure, but not a rampant occurrence given the great numbers of these guns in use..

In looking at Brownell's catalog, they carry the pawls for these guns and for cheap, and I can't help but wonder whether a simple pawl change might resolve the issue on certain guns. As cheap as the parts are, if I had a problem with mine, I'd buy a couple of the pawls, and try them. If that didn't fix it, I would install one, adjust it such that the gun was properly timed with regard to carryup, lockup, etc, and then remove just a few thousandths from the point of the first engagement shelf in order to keep it at a point either flush with or behind the recoil shield. If that were to fail, I'd still have the original part to reinstall, I'd be out just a few bucks, and could then explore other options.

Just a possible solution.

 

[Hondo44]

That video is pure nonsense.

How does removing the three parts of the "Indexing Pawl System" have any possible affect on his complaint of the cyl pawl wearing the frame in the pawl slot?? That's impossible there's absolutely no connection between the two.

 

[cadillo]

Wow, 42 days, and no new posts regarding an attempt at a remedy. I'll take that to mean that this problem is occurring in only a very small number of these guns. I'm most surprised that the folks who use the Vaqueros for Cowboy competition apparently have not had enough trouble of this sort to have come up with a way to address it. As they say necessity is the mother of invention. If there is little necessity, there will be little invention.

 

[Hondo44]

cadiilo,

If the problem that you're referring to is cylinder lock up with loading gate open, there's only one possible cause: the gate spring. It lowers the cyl bolt by opening the gate. The cyl bolt is the only part that can prevent the cyl from rotating forward.

The most common cause for this is the tip of the gate spring slipping off of the gate pivot cam. Easily observed with gun assembled. If that's not happening, then the gate spring fit is not correct. Another indication of poor gate spring fit is a gate that's unusually hard to open. Current Rugers now have a new milling groove in the top side of the trigger guard for the gate spring, to address the problem. If not familiar with fitting the gate spring, return the gun to Ruger after calling and obtaining a prepaid shipping label.

 

[Hondo44]

One other thing if you observe that the cyl bolt has lowered properly after opening the loading gate, but the cyl still won't turn:

I suspect the barrel/cyl gap is too tight; very common and about the only thing that can cause the problem if it's not the cyl bolt. Once the gun gets hot from shooting and parts expand, the cyl will hang up on the end of the barrel and there's not enough leverage to turn it by pulling on the hammer, especially with a little fowling present. Check the gap with gun cold by holding it up to light or the sky. You should see an even space between barrel and cyl of about .006" give or take a few. Do the same check after firing to see if the light space has diminished or partially disappeared. If this is the case, rotating the cyl by turning with your fingers with the gate open is almost impossible. Look at the front face of the cyl for rub marks.