Making 221 fireball brass

[rugerjunkie]

Posted this question over at the shooters forum and want to pick the brains of the experts here too...


Ive been making some 221 fireball brass. I ordered a set of forming dies that work like a charm after trying without much success using the 221 dies to do the forming. All is good and cant be much simpler with the new forming dies.

I run the brass through the forming dies , trim , champfer and deburr , anneal the new neck and shoulder , then make a final pass through the 221 sizer die. I have done 2 batches. One with Lake City brass and one with Federal FC 223. All of my measurements are the same between the two.

My main question is about the necks. I measure .011 neck thickness and from all the books I have , it is right on. I took a fired case from my rifle and measured the outside neck diameter , then a dummy round with a new reformed case with a bullet seated and it measures .004 larger diameter than the fired case. The dummy rounds function fine in the rifle and those measurements should give me enough chamber clearance with the new rounds right?

The way im figuring this is a .004 diameter gives .002 clearance in the chamber plus you have the fired case that has shrunk back down a tad after firing which should equal adequate clearance in the chamber to not cause any pressure issues. If wrong , please correct me.

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[Bucks Owin]

Lemme get this straight...Your fired cases have necks that have shrunk in diameter?!? :?

 

[rugerjunkie]

Lemme get this straight...Your fired cases have necks that have shrunk in diameter?!? :?

Im referring to the brass springing back after firing. It doesnt remain the exact size of the chamber. I dont know how much , but it adds to my needed chamber clearance right?

 

[Precision32]

What do you get for an outside neck diameter on a loaded factory case vs your loaded reformed case?

 

[ra]

As long as they chamber easily in your rifle you are good to go.

Roger

 

[rugerjunkie]

What do you get for an outside neck diameter on a loaded factory case vs your loaded reformed case?

Forgot to add that measurement.


Neck diameters...
Factory fired case measures .267-.268
Factory loaded measures .260-.261
LC reformed measures .262-.263


And yes they do chamber good and i see no marking up of the necks or bullets so I think I should be good to go here.

 

[jsh]

Years ago I did the same. 223 brass ended up with the neck wall being to thick. I tried several brands and lots of different brass, no luck. Got a hold so some 222 brass. It was perfect for my over sized chamber.
The comment above on if it chambers easily is far from true. I have worked with a few wildcats and have made my fair share of brass. Measure. Then measure again.
I would also suggest you anneal the neck/ shoulder area to get a good fire forming.
Jeff

 

[rugerjunkie]

Yessir...annealed the brass after it went through the forming dies then ran it through the full length sizer. Im skeptical of the "if it chambers it'll work" statement too and thats why im asking questions. Plus the fireball has a very narrow range with the powder charge from starting load to max an doesnt take much to get it wrong in a bad way!

Without a chamber cast all I can do is assume with some educated guesses and all the measuring Ive done that there is enough chamber clearance. Im going to load up a few with a starting load and run them over the chronograph this week and see what happens...

 

[Precision32]

What do you get for an outside neck diameter on a loaded factory case vs your loaded reformed case?

Forgot to add that measurement.


Neck diameters...
Factory fired case measures .267-.268
Factory loaded measures .260-.261
LC reformed measures .262-.263


And yes they do chamber good and i see no marking up of the necks or bullets so I think I should be good to go here.

I also would take the 'if it fits shoot it' with a big grain of salt. You are correct that a chamber cast would be the preferable way to go. Lacking that, I would clean the neck area of some of the cases and try to determine if they drag on the throat of the chamber after firing. Also closely compare the primers from each loading. While this is the least reliable method to check for pressure, if you see major differences in the appearance, you should seriously consider a chamber cast.

Have fun and stay safe.

 

[jsh]

Just a thought, fire form with some cream of wheat or grits trick.
PM me I have a present for ya.
Jeff

 

[rugerjunkie]

Did a little bit of reading up on this at some of the benchrest sites and a lot of them are keeping a clearance between neck and chamber at .001 to .015 and I have more than that between a once fired neck and the neck on a dummy round. If I can get caught up around home and get a new target stand built I'll be testing it out soon.

 

[Bucks Owin]

I didn't notice that you are reaming the necks after forming the 221 cases... :wink:

Almost standard procedure when pushing the shoulder back when forming cases from a longer parent case...

 

[rugerjunkie]

I got a 22 cal neck reamer and tried it. Bullets just drop right through. Tried it after forming then a pass in the sizing die and it didnt work. Maybe I did something wrong there...I dont know.

 

[Bucks Owin]

I would fireform the .221 cases with a mild load then run the reamer into the necks BEFORE you resize the fired case. Generally very little brass is shaved. I do this when making .243 cases from gvmt Lake City match .308 (7.62 NATO) which is a simple neck down, yet a little is removed none the less. I once had occasion to make 7x57 cases out of .270 brass which more parallels your endeavors and the amount of brass removed was noticeably more...

Depends on the dimensions of your chamber. Maybe nothing will be removed from the necks of your fired cases but carbon! It all depends.But at least you'll know your neck thickness isn't raising pressures by not wanting to release the bullet...:wink:

PS: Keep an eye on case length too. I'd trim the mouths square at least...

 

[ra]

Your fired case neck measurement of .268 -.269 means that your neck is about .270 allowing for spring back.
Your formed neck of .262-.263 means you have .007 clearance, which is more than enough. I have formed around 500 221 brass and never had a neck even close to being too thick. I have 3 guns I load for that have tight necks where the necks have to be turned to chamber. You all ways read about thick necks not releasing the bullet, but there is no way a round with a neck larger than the chamber neck will chamber in the gun, unless you take a mallet and beat the bolt closed. When I turn necks for a tight chamber if it is to thick you will know real quick, it will not began to chamber.
Going by your measurements and the fact they chamber in your gun I would load them. If they had not chambered then you would have more work to do.
Also you need to recheck your case measurements, if the neck is .011, then .224+.011+.011=.246. The SAAMI maximum neck for the 221 case is .253.

Roger

 

[Bucks Owin]

Roger, please explain why a .243" bullet that exited a reformed .308 case allows a .243" reamer to shave brass out of the unsized fired case if the neck isn't too thick? You think it's best to leave them like that so long as the neck sized and reloaded round "can" chamber albeit with a little resistance?

Just curious...:?

BTW, rifle is a Pre 64 M70. (Controlled feed)

 

[ra]

Buck, I have no idea on your 243, and I have no experience with a neck reamer. One thing I know for sure is if the fired case neck dimension are .007 larger than a loaded round the neck is not too thick. Also he said nothing about resistance.

Roger

 

[rugerjunkie]

Your fired case neck measurement of .268 -.269 means that your neck is about .270 allowing for spring back.
Your formed neck of .262-.263 means you have .007 clearance, which is more than enough. I have formed around 500 221 brass and never had a neck even close to being too thick. I have 3 guns I load for that have tight necks where the necks have to be turned to chamber. You all ways read about thick necks not releasing the bullet, but there is no way a round with a neck larger than the chamber neck will chamber in the gun, unless you take a mallet and beat the bolt closed. When I turn necks for a tight chamber if it is to thick you will know real quick, it will not began to chamber.
Going by your measurements and the fact they chamber in your gun I would load them. If they had not chambered then you would have more work to do.
Also you need to recheck your case measurements, if the neck is .011, then .224+.011+.011=.246. The SAAMI maximum neck for the 221 case is .253.

Roger

Thats good info Roger and thank you very much. And I will double check my measurements and might have to invest in a little better quality caliper! Thanks for chiming in with your thoughts too Mr Owens.

The rifle in question is a 700 LVSF. The brass and the dummy round chamber without any effort to close the bolt and there are no marks anywhere on the brass. And after years without one...a new XP-100 221 Fireball arrived today! Tried the brass and dummy round in that and there was only a slight effort needed to close the bolt and again there was no marking of the brass anywhere. The XP definately has the tighter chamber out of the two.

 

[ra]

rugerjunkie, I also have a XP100 in 221 Fireball. The bolt being a little hard to close is most likely minimun head space, which is a good thing. I try to adjust my sizing die down a little at a time until I get a little resistance when I close the bolt. Your brass should last longer and accuracy should be a little better.
Going from memory my XP's fired case neck diameter is .256-.257, a loaded round with factory brass is .249-.250, and brass formed from 223 is .251-.252.

Roger

 

[Bucks Owin]

From Speer Number Ten:

"The 221 Remington cartridge is a shortened version of the 222. If cases are made from 222 or 223 brass, necks must be reamed and loads should be reduced as the case capacity will be smaller than with the original 221 cases"

Test Gun: Remington XP-100

Actual velocity of factory ammo averaged 2620 fps out of a 10.75" barrel.

Industry maximum 55,500 CUP

Right snappy little cartridge! 8)