MAC: M193 ball vs Mk311 Mod3 Frangible-Is a house a barrier?
- Thread starter hpman66
- Start date
I really expected the frangible to stop in the multiple layers of chip board. I've used some on steel targets and a friend says some of his "run and gun" buddies like it for close range plates.
I suppose if I was toting a 5.56 for defense in an urban area, I'd be more interested in seeing how many layers of tin can car bodies the frangible would penetrate.
I suppose if I was toting a 5.56 for defense in an urban area, I'd be more interested in seeing how many layers of tin can car bodies the frangible would penetrate.
Jimbo357mag
Hawkeye
Maybe a 9mm or a 38 special would be a better round for home defense unless you are out in the country with nothing around. I sure would not go for a rifle for home defense. I think a lot of the 'Black Rifle' hot shots are obsessed with the gun and the round for the wrong reasons. My go to gun is a GP-100 loaded with 38 specials with a speed loader of 357 mags.
toysoldier
Hunter
Jimbo357mag said:
The AR platform has taken a huge section of the new gun market. In .223/5.56, it is offered by a host of manufacturers as everything from a target rifle to a pistol. Uppers are offered in a wide range of factory rifle and pistol chamberings, even belt-fed 12 gauge. Is it the best choice for every one of these roles? I doubt it. It seems like there's a competition to see just how far the platform can be stretched---practicality be damned.
I'm one of the last three people in the country who doesn't own an AR , so I haven't
played with many.
I'd be interested to see what would happen with the frangible rounds if there
was maybe 5 feet or more between the drywall sheets, sorta more "house like".
Not sure what the point of the video " test" was, houses are not built like that.
Dave
played with many.
I'd be interested to see what would happen with the frangible rounds if there
was maybe 5 feet or more between the drywall sheets, sorta more "house like".
Not sure what the point of the video " test" was, houses are not built like that.
Dave
Keep in mind that the ball ammo is pretty much designed to wound which is what you want in warfare.... make a nice clean hole in and out.
That frangible stuff made some more nasty holes.... it could not have been the same type of ammo but I've been hit multiple times with frangible ammo... most of it was 9mm but one time it was 5.56... I was wearing a helmet with a face shield and it hit there and actually range my bell. Now that I think about it those were plastic bullets with some type of marking die on them...
That frangible stuff made some more nasty holes.... it could not have been the same type of ammo but I've been hit multiple times with frangible ammo... most of it was 9mm but one time it was 5.56... I was wearing a helmet with a face shield and it hit there and actually range my bell. Now that I think about it those were plastic bullets with some type of marking die on them...
bogus bill
Hunter
A handgun or a short barrel shotgun is best. It has to be handy and not awkward to handle. If you dont have either but do have a rifle that will have to do. I keep a .38 in reach.
What I noticed in that video is he kept mentioning some kind of "high velocity compacted powder" making the big holes in the sheet rock and then even in the plywood.... if that was powder making those holes ... I sure don't want to get hit by it....
Jimbo357mag
Hawkeye
Golly, what have you been doing to get shot by frangible ammo???? :shock:blume357 said:
Todd Rasa Force on Force Training.... best training I've ever taken but I would suggest a couple days of intense handgun training first...
In the Force on Force class you sit in a class room for about an hour and get instructed on what is going to happen... then you and other students go out to enter a fenced in compound... before you, any of the instructors or actors enter everyone is searched seriously for any weapons... then you go in and are issued protective gear which includes a bullet proof vest , neck protection and a helmet with face shield... you also get a holster and some other items... then they issue you a semi-auto pistol 'Sig P Series" and ammo.... you and the other students... usually 5 to 8 then get to sit in a room (actually a modified shipping container) I did this in June and it was hot. One of the instructors comes in and calls your name and you go out and he puts a black plastic bag over your head and leads you to another part of the compound...(you are seriously disoriented by then) then he stops you and explains to you where you are in the scenario and that when the bag comes off your head the event begins and does not end until he yells "cease fire!" Example, you are sitting in a movie theater and it is starting... bag comes off your head and there are a two people sitting in front of you talking and another in front of them... movie is starting and the front person turns around and tells the couple to 'shish" then they look up behind you and have a funny look on their face and a guy walks past you in the semi dark and up to the front and pulls an AR out from under his coat....... the people in front of you start screaming and jump up and you have to decide what you are going to do.... you have about one second to react... After it is over the instructors discuss what you did, what you did right and what you did wrong or what could have been done better... the 2nd time I took this course they tended to discuss more of how I reacted after the threat was stopped .... After every one has gone through 2 or 3 scenarios ... lunch time and then you come back to the class room and actually watch how everyone reacted to the same scenario and discuss it.... each one is videoed.
the ammo we shot could not have been anything like that guy was shooting... but it does hurt and can cut you if it hits bare skin or light clothing....
In the Force on Force class you sit in a class room for about an hour and get instructed on what is going to happen... then you and other students go out to enter a fenced in compound... before you, any of the instructors or actors enter everyone is searched seriously for any weapons... then you go in and are issued protective gear which includes a bullet proof vest , neck protection and a helmet with face shield... you also get a holster and some other items... then they issue you a semi-auto pistol 'Sig P Series" and ammo.... you and the other students... usually 5 to 8 then get to sit in a room (actually a modified shipping container) I did this in June and it was hot. One of the instructors comes in and calls your name and you go out and he puts a black plastic bag over your head and leads you to another part of the compound...(you are seriously disoriented by then) then he stops you and explains to you where you are in the scenario and that when the bag comes off your head the event begins and does not end until he yells "cease fire!" Example, you are sitting in a movie theater and it is starting... bag comes off your head and there are a two people sitting in front of you talking and another in front of them... movie is starting and the front person turns around and tells the couple to 'shish" then they look up behind you and have a funny look on their face and a guy walks past you in the semi dark and up to the front and pulls an AR out from under his coat....... the people in front of you start screaming and jump up and you have to decide what you are going to do.... you have about one second to react... After it is over the instructors discuss what you did, what you did right and what you did wrong or what could have been done better... the 2nd time I took this course they tended to discuss more of how I reacted after the threat was stopped .... After every one has gone through 2 or 3 scenarios ... lunch time and then you come back to the class room and actually watch how everyone reacted to the same scenario and discuss it.... each one is videoed.
the ammo we shot could not have been anything like that guy was shooting... but it does hurt and can cut you if it hits bare skin or light clothing....
Jimbo357mag
Hawkeye
That is some serious training. Thanks for telling us what was going on.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that wasn't frangible ammo.
Frangible is designed to disintegrate into powder when it hits a sufficiently hard surface(like a steel plate target). I was interested in frangible for use when shooting coyotes on frozen ground while doing predator control close to buildings and livestock. Unfortunately, the frangible bullets I tried showed zero disruption or tumbling in soft tissue as might be advantageous for killing varmints.
Frangible is safer when shooting close range steel and much easier on the steel targets, too. Somewhere here I have a couple thousand rounds of 9mm frangible left over from a bunch of ammo I loaded for shooting steel after I got whacked pretty good by a rebounding 9mm FMJ.
Frangible is designed to disintegrate into powder when it hits a sufficiently hard surface(like a steel plate target). I was interested in frangible for use when shooting coyotes on frozen ground while doing predator control close to buildings and livestock. Unfortunately, the frangible bullets I tried showed zero disruption or tumbling in soft tissue as might be advantageous for killing varmints.
Frangible is safer when shooting close range steel and much easier on the steel targets, too. Somewhere here I have a couple thousand rounds of 9mm frangible left over from a bunch of ammo I loaded for shooting steel after I got whacked pretty good by a rebounding 9mm FMJ.
I'm far from an expert but yes the ammo we used on the force on force class was obviously much different that that.... It actually had some kind of making paint on the plastic bullet... the really good part was in a scene where you pull and draw fast on an opponent things are happing so fast there is usually no time to use the iron sights but you can see where the first round hits and thus adjust your pointing aim. Here's a round beside a standard 9mm one:
Another item.... at Contenders East Coat Gathering he often puts up some steel targets.... when shooting 9mm or better there is a minimum distance from these but what I have found on the ground from the rounds hitting the steel are flat, very thin wafers of metal slightly smaller in diameter than a quarter.
Another item.... at Contenders East Coat Gathering he often puts up some steel targets.... when shooting 9mm or better there is a minimum distance from these but what I have found on the ground from the rounds hitting the steel are flat, very thin wafers of metal slightly smaller in diameter than a quarter.
I think that's called "simunition".
Those "lead washers" are the reason I switched to plated lead bullets instead of frangibles. The softer lead core of the plated bullets "washers" out and doesn't rebound like jacketed bullets plus is much cheaper and easier to load than frangibles.
Those "lead washers" are the reason I switched to plated lead bullets instead of frangibles. The softer lead core of the plated bullets "washers" out and doesn't rebound like jacketed bullets plus is much cheaper and easier to load than frangibles.
contender
Ruger Guru
Frangible ammo was initially designed (for the mass marketing,) to allow indoor ranges, an option against lead dust in the air. It has evolved a bit into ammo for shooting steel at closer distances as well as other purposes. Such as the stuff blume mentions. A type that allows live fire upon each other for training.
There are different types of frangible available now.
I didn't watch the video above,, but I have studied some of that stuff,, to see if I had any need for it.
Now,, shooting steel,, like what blume mentions at my range.
We shoot USPSA here,, and steel is an allowed target. However, there are rules, specifically shown in the rule book on distances a steel target must be from a shooter. A minimum of 27 ft is required,, and most USPSA match directors prefer at least 3 ft more,, as a "fudge factor." (Example; A hard charging shooter runs to a fault line where steel must be engaged from. As he's shooting, he also is moving so hard & fast that he passes the "fault line" and goes forward, by a step. If the steel was engaged & a fragment were to come back,, the 27 ft rule should help a bit.)
We shoot a lot of steel here.
As such, blume is right,, you will see discs of lead splatter that impacted a steel target, from about a dime to a bit larger than a nickle on the ground all around where steel is shot. When a softer lead bullet strikes steel directly, it does fragment, and as the energy is expended, what doesn't fragment, ends up being that disc. Both powder coated & normal lubed lead bullets do this easily. Jacketed bullets will also fragment,, but not in the same manner. HP's fragment a bit more than a solid nosed bullet. But we also find flattened jacketed pieces as well as all sorts of pieces.
The distance thing allows for energy to be absorbed,, and if any pieces do bounce back towards the shooter, (or others,) it is normally reduced enough to where any potential injuries are minor.
But often,, people do get a fragment that bounces back to a shooter, a RO, or even others standing behind a shooter watching. I was at a SASS match long ago, where they had a LARGE steel "dump target" that was being shot at,, and I was over 100 ft away & got a fragment to hit me. It's why we also require eye protection.
All ammo can & will fragment depending upon the type of target it hits. Some will just do it quicker, or disintegrate into a dust,, if it hits a hard steel target vs., say sheet rock, or plywood, or whatever.
So, as to the OP & about use of frangible ammo for SD inside a home.
There are a LOT of factors & variables you have to understand about such potential uses. Houses are built where the exterior has brick, masonry, rock, Smart Siding, Hardiplank, aluminum, or vinyl in general. Inside that, us normally the exterior sheathing, insulation, then 2x4 studs, with whatever interior wall material chosen. Interior walls can have thin paneling, sheet rock, wood, or other materials.
BUT,, totally interior walls are not built the same as exterior walls. Quite often, they are mostly 2x4 studs, without insulation, and whatever interior wall material is chosen. In todays world, the most common interior wall material is sheet rock. And even that is in different thicknesses. An exception is commercial buildings,, (motels, apartment complexes, etc.) where aluminum studs are used in place of wood studs.
Next,,, consider angles of the bullet paths. Direct or at an angle. How many layers of whatever materials are use and at what angles? A direct hit on an interior wall, will most often only hit 2 layers of sheet rock, if hit between the studs. Very little to stop a bullet. Add in the stud. If hit "centered,," you have an additional 3.5" of wood to allow a bullet to expend energy. But a partial hit has less mass to penetrate. Add in an angle,, and you may actually get to hit 2 studs,, but if so, it'll be still less than a direct hit on a stud. (Think aiming along a wall, and firing to where the bullet goes through the wall and into the next room.)
Frangible ammo has it's place,, but to think it's a end all, be all SD answer,, is not thinking of all the potential issues.
About 40 yrs ago,, I did my own testing of SD ammo that I had loaded. I had read about using .38 spl. soft lead HB wadcutters, inverted, over a mild to moderate charge of powder. I shot wet telephone books, plywood, water jugs, and sheet rock. I also tested another SD ammo idea,, by loading 3 pieces of #1 buckshot in a Speer shot capsule, over a mild to medium charge of powder.
Both loads allowed me the potential of stopping an attacker at close range if I hit the attacker. Wet phone books, and water jugs showed that potential.
Other materials showed me that all can & would likely penetrate the wall materials. But the energy would be reduced somewhat,, thereby reducing the possible injuries on the other side of a wall.
But the biggest thing I learned,, was to "NOT miss my target!" That way, I would reduce the potential injury to an innocent person, (my family) greatly!
Too many variables to where there is no one answer to such a complicated question.
There are different types of frangible available now.
I didn't watch the video above,, but I have studied some of that stuff,, to see if I had any need for it.
Now,, shooting steel,, like what blume mentions at my range.
We shoot USPSA here,, and steel is an allowed target. However, there are rules, specifically shown in the rule book on distances a steel target must be from a shooter. A minimum of 27 ft is required,, and most USPSA match directors prefer at least 3 ft more,, as a "fudge factor." (Example; A hard charging shooter runs to a fault line where steel must be engaged from. As he's shooting, he also is moving so hard & fast that he passes the "fault line" and goes forward, by a step. If the steel was engaged & a fragment were to come back,, the 27 ft rule should help a bit.)
We shoot a lot of steel here.
As such, blume is right,, you will see discs of lead splatter that impacted a steel target, from about a dime to a bit larger than a nickle on the ground all around where steel is shot. When a softer lead bullet strikes steel directly, it does fragment, and as the energy is expended, what doesn't fragment, ends up being that disc. Both powder coated & normal lubed lead bullets do this easily. Jacketed bullets will also fragment,, but not in the same manner. HP's fragment a bit more than a solid nosed bullet. But we also find flattened jacketed pieces as well as all sorts of pieces.
The distance thing allows for energy to be absorbed,, and if any pieces do bounce back towards the shooter, (or others,) it is normally reduced enough to where any potential injuries are minor.
But often,, people do get a fragment that bounces back to a shooter, a RO, or even others standing behind a shooter watching. I was at a SASS match long ago, where they had a LARGE steel "dump target" that was being shot at,, and I was over 100 ft away & got a fragment to hit me. It's why we also require eye protection.
All ammo can & will fragment depending upon the type of target it hits. Some will just do it quicker, or disintegrate into a dust,, if it hits a hard steel target vs., say sheet rock, or plywood, or whatever.
So, as to the OP & about use of frangible ammo for SD inside a home.
There are a LOT of factors & variables you have to understand about such potential uses. Houses are built where the exterior has brick, masonry, rock, Smart Siding, Hardiplank, aluminum, or vinyl in general. Inside that, us normally the exterior sheathing, insulation, then 2x4 studs, with whatever interior wall material chosen. Interior walls can have thin paneling, sheet rock, wood, or other materials.
BUT,, totally interior walls are not built the same as exterior walls. Quite often, they are mostly 2x4 studs, without insulation, and whatever interior wall material is chosen. In todays world, the most common interior wall material is sheet rock. And even that is in different thicknesses. An exception is commercial buildings,, (motels, apartment complexes, etc.) where aluminum studs are used in place of wood studs.
Next,,, consider angles of the bullet paths. Direct or at an angle. How many layers of whatever materials are use and at what angles? A direct hit on an interior wall, will most often only hit 2 layers of sheet rock, if hit between the studs. Very little to stop a bullet. Add in the stud. If hit "centered,," you have an additional 3.5" of wood to allow a bullet to expend energy. But a partial hit has less mass to penetrate. Add in an angle,, and you may actually get to hit 2 studs,, but if so, it'll be still less than a direct hit on a stud. (Think aiming along a wall, and firing to where the bullet goes through the wall and into the next room.)
Frangible ammo has it's place,, but to think it's a end all, be all SD answer,, is not thinking of all the potential issues.
About 40 yrs ago,, I did my own testing of SD ammo that I had loaded. I had read about using .38 spl. soft lead HB wadcutters, inverted, over a mild to moderate charge of powder. I shot wet telephone books, plywood, water jugs, and sheet rock. I also tested another SD ammo idea,, by loading 3 pieces of #1 buckshot in a Speer shot capsule, over a mild to medium charge of powder.
Both loads allowed me the potential of stopping an attacker at close range if I hit the attacker. Wet phone books, and water jugs showed that potential.
Other materials showed me that all can & would likely penetrate the wall materials. But the energy would be reduced somewhat,, thereby reducing the possible injuries on the other side of a wall.
But the biggest thing I learned,, was to "NOT miss my target!" That way, I would reduce the potential injury to an innocent person, (my family) greatly!
Too many variables to where there is no one answer to such a complicated question.
Colonel Daddy
Buckeye
Seems I agree with Jimbo357mag on this one only .45acp and 38 spcJimbo357mag said:
I agree to... the one rifle I have handy by a door is 9mm and all the pistols in various places are 9mm, but I am considering upgrading to 357 Sig.
