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Interesting video.
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Yaworski
Hawkeye
"Should I trust a stranger .. . .?"
All cops are strangers with guns.
All cops are strangers with guns.
I would offer to help but I would not be drawing my gun before the LEO knew I was armed. And the comment from the 2nd cop about what happens when back up shows up and sees this guy standing behind her with a gun.... ?
The funny part was her description of the car when she first came up to it. Sounded like a scene from a Cheech and Chong movie to me.
The funny part was her description of the car when she first came up to it. Sounded like a scene from a Cheech and Chong movie to me.
I'd say the armed citizen is EXTREMELY lucky. He exposed himself to both friendly fire and to whatever the bad guys had in mind by standing in the open like a target board.
I would have wanted to help her, but standing out there making a target of himself wasn't very wise, IMO.
In a situation like that, sometimes your vehicle can be your best weapon or shield. He probably should have parked sideways to block the road, yelled at the pretty officer if she needed help and then stood behind his car gun drawn.
Another thought I have had many times....if I help a cop.....since there are so many sorry ones....would I be risking my life to help an oath-breaker? I would just as soon let guys like that sink or swim.
In a situation like that, sometimes your vehicle can be your best weapon or shield. He probably should have parked sideways to block the road, yelled at the pretty officer if she needed help and then stood behind his car gun drawn.
Another thought I have had many times....if I help a cop.....since there are so many sorry ones....would I be risking my life to help an oath-breaker? I would just as soon let guys like that sink or swim.
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Tables turned here, how would you determine if the cop was worthy of your help ?? How would he/she determine if you're/aren't an oath breaker ?? Just asking.
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That's the problem. It's a shame that police departments won't cull the psychopaths/sociopaths out. Until they do, the good cops will pay the price.
OP
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Or even if it's a real cop.
Worse case scenario a fake cop involved in a bank robbery and you help him gun down an off duty or plain clothes real cop.
I get the thought that many good guys would like to help police. This incident could have ended up bad for that citizen so many ways, far too many to list.
A neighbor told me he got his CCW so that he could help others until police arrived. I told him to forget all that way of thinking. The CCW is for your protection, don't pull it out unless your threatened or you know for 100% who is the good guy vs the bad guy and a life is in danger at that moment. Otherwise, be a good eyewitness. Id yourself after the event is over.
A neighbor told me he got his CCW so that he could help others until police arrived. I told him to forget all that way of thinking. The CCW is for your protection, don't pull it out unless your threatened or you know for 100% who is the good guy vs the bad guy and a life is in danger at that moment. Otherwise, be a good eyewitness. Id yourself after the event is over.
It is a hard call as to whether to get involved or sit back and just watch... One of the scenarios in the class I took at the Sig Academy was you are sitting in the food court at the mall and a ruckus starts around the corner and two guys show up beating the heck out of a third... as you get up to get 'involved' a screaming woman shows up and attacks the two guys attacking the third....and one of the 'bad' guys knocks the woman down, of course you get involved.... after 'the show' it is explained that you have no clue as to what happened before .... what you were supposed to do was only call 911.... part of the interesting part was most of the guys in the class only 'engaged' when the woman showed up. Point being you really have no idea who are the actual bad guys .......
Oh, I ended up killing the two guys attacking the third guy. I still think I was justified.... the guy being beat was down on the ground and the two were kicking him and I told them to stop they turned and said some rude things to me and returned to kicking him and I yelled again for them to stop...they looked at me again and one of the guys started to kick the guy on the ground in the head and I drew and took him out. The the other guy turned to me and started cussing me out and walking toward me wanting to know why I shot his buddy... I pointed my gun at him and he stopped and I told him if he took another step toward me I'd shoot him too... He then took a step toward me... he got 3 to the chest. I know it was like some TV scene.
Oh, I ended up killing the two guys attacking the third guy. I still think I was justified.... the guy being beat was down on the ground and the two were kicking him and I told them to stop they turned and said some rude things to me and returned to kicking him and I yelled again for them to stop...they looked at me again and one of the guys started to kick the guy on the ground in the head and I drew and took him out. The the other guy turned to me and started cussing me out and walking toward me wanting to know why I shot his buddy... I pointed my gun at him and he stopped and I told him if he took another step toward me I'd shoot him too... He then took a step toward me... he got 3 to the chest. I know it was like some TV scene.
I've been 'asked for assistance' twice by law enforcement. Once the request was "watch that guy" and the second was "don't let him leave"--those are pretty general instructions. I didn't draw my carry gun either time and didn't even speak to the 'suspects'. Apparently, that was enough for the suspects to feel obligated to stay where they were. Would I have shot either of those guys?? A lot depends on their actions. If I felt 'threatened', most assuredly I would have drawn my gun. If the threat continued?? A judgment call I didn't have to make. The 'confidence level' I displayed was good enough.
Like I said in my post unless you know 100% who is a bad guy/attacker and who is the victim. Rarely is anyone going to really know unless they where watching and listening to all involved before the fight started and even at that you could still wrong. Pulling out a firearm to help has gotten many good guys shot by the responding police. The calls to 911 by others is never 100% correct. When responding I have had been told who is the attacker and who is the victim and after arriving and stopping their actions found out just the opposite was true.
Side Note. This has stuck with me since I trained and worked undercover. 1970s NYPD, was having uniformed cops shooting undercover cops when responding to fighting armed guys. Undercover cops where attempting to arrest a suspect and a fight started. Uniform NYPD arrives doesn't know the undercover cops by name or sight. They find a doper looking guy either shooting at another doper looking guy or at gun point. Too many times the uniform cop fired at the undercover cop. NYPD came up with a gun policy that helped. Undercover cops would only use 1 type of gun period. (I don't recall what it was) Then uniformed cops arriving had a better chance to know who was who, but that was still not 100% sure in all cases. In Oregon all cops are given a unique police ID number that is only issued to that 1 cop. We would shout out our DPSST number to arriving cops that didn't know us. That worked pretty well.
Yaworski
Hawkeye
Not too long ago, two undercover cops shot each other here.
It's never going to be a perfect world. My unit back when working undercover had 12 guys, 2 shifts. In 6 years I was there several times we found out during weekly meetings that 2 dicks were working the same crooks. With everyone sharing the basic case information and crooks names on a weekly basis that helped prevent cop on cop gun play. Without those meetings we could have ended up pointing guns at our unit guys. We knew each other on sight and that helped. But we still had other agencies advising we arrested their informant or were working their case.
I was on the arrest team once, doper in a motel room. There was a police Sgt. from another agency in the room, I knew him on sight. He was posing as a buyer. He was prone with several guns pointing at him along with our suspect. I needed to protect his Identity, so I cuffed him and transported him to uniform cops outside. He was driven away and released. We meet later and he said it was scary to have cops pointing guns at him, but we did a great take down even though he lost the chance to make a case on that crook.
High tempo situation, and a unknown subject appears, in a awkward stance, not behind cover, no visual ID (badge on chain or belt), no verbal ID, and behind me? Great now you have to partially unfocus the main threat and deal with that also.
Sometimes good intentions from the willing but untrained may have bad results. There is a higher percentage of those unknowingly impeding rather than helping causing more harm than good. Getting themselves and/or LE subject to bodily harm.
If I were arriving on scene as first backup and saw that while rolling into position I would be calling it in, and if he didn't produce LEID? the guy would be ordered to stand down, drop the weapon, hands on head, and he would be cuffed and placed in a cruiser until the tempo was evened. That Officer took a gamble. Luckily it worked out. As a scene leader you are responsible for everyone and everything that happens. If that guy was harmed, it could have possibly come back on her if not criminally at least civil. From what was briefly observed in the clip you could tell that guy was not trained and took a gamble himself. Thankfully it was for good intentions. But really it is just adding more tension and complexity to an already high tempo situation.
Why do you think everyone exiting a building during an Active Shooter event is asked to have their open hands up in the air.....LE usually goes off a vague description of the shooter(s) and have no idea who is coming out.
Sometimes good intentions from the willing but untrained may have bad results. There is a higher percentage of those unknowingly impeding rather than helping causing more harm than good. Getting themselves and/or LE subject to bodily harm.
If I were arriving on scene as first backup and saw that while rolling into position I would be calling it in, and if he didn't produce LEID? the guy would be ordered to stand down, drop the weapon, hands on head, and he would be cuffed and placed in a cruiser until the tempo was evened. That Officer took a gamble. Luckily it worked out. As a scene leader you are responsible for everyone and everything that happens. If that guy was harmed, it could have possibly come back on her if not criminally at least civil. From what was briefly observed in the clip you could tell that guy was not trained and took a gamble himself. Thankfully it was for good intentions. But really it is just adding more tension and complexity to an already high tempo situation.
Why do you think everyone exiting a building during an Active Shooter event is asked to have their open hands up in the air.....LE usually goes off a vague description of the shooter(s) and have no idea who is coming out.
OP
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The responses to this thread reminded me of those CCW Badges that were advertised years ago. The rationale was that the badge would identify you as a good guy so you wouldn’t be shot by responding cops
It seemed like a terrible idea then and still does.
. But the intent was valid.
It seemed like a terrible idea then and still does.
. But the intent was valid.XUSNORIDIE's comments are exactly why I would never offer to help a LEO whom I didn't know personally.
I knew the Chief Deputy in a neighboring county well enough that we exchanged information. I told him where I'd seen suspicious activity and he told me places where I should be wary or avoid.
He'd invite me to sit with the county/city cops at lunch.
Some of those younger cops would look at me with disdain UNTIL the Deputy vouched for me. It shouldn't be that way.
I knew the Chief Deputy in a neighboring county well enough that we exchanged information. I told him where I'd seen suspicious activity and he told me places where I should be wary or avoid.
He'd invite me to sit with the county/city cops at lunch.
Some of those younger cops would look at me with disdain UNTIL the Deputy vouched for me. It shouldn't be that way.
Yaworski
Hawkeye
Them and us or us and them. More importantly "Quis custodiet Ipsos custodes?"
Yaworski
Hawkeye
Cops are a secretive lot. They only want to socialize with other cops. Even retired cops on internet forums are pretty tight-lipped about the inner workings of police duty.
Yep.
Yaworski
Hawkeye
First off, if they don't know you, they assume that you are a criminal Even if they know you, they assume you are a criminal. They don't talk because they don't want you to know about their criminal activity.
So much assumption and projection from some. But then again, from some it is expected.
Secrecy breeds speculation.
And being narrow minded, assumptive, and defensive if not purely defiant towards certain folks breeds projection of a guilty conscience. No secret there.....the "some" referred to have very apparent tells.
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Our Founding Fathers set this country up as a free and open society with freedom of speech and freedom of press.
Discussion of the behavior of our paid public servants should not be excluded from freedom of speech.
Words can be used to convey information and words can be used to prevent information from being conveyed, which seems to be the nature of your insults.
Those who try to hinder free speech are enemies of our freedom.
Again....a projection of a guilty conscience...insults? In that respect I believe you and another waded into this thread and cast insults as you do any chance you get.....I am truly surprised you didn't spin it into hatred for bankers and Israel...your making progress. Sort of.
Even though at my core is the tenant to always question authority and I know that there has always been some bad in law enforcement I still have a great respect for any police officer. Everyone I have met over the years has shown the same to me.
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