Hawkeyes not controlled round feed?????

[boray]

So much for controlled round feed! I finally got sick of screwing with the extraction and ejection problems with a couple of Savage model 10 push feed rifles I had so I went down to one of the local shops and ordered me up a brand spankin' new All Weather in .308 and Tactical Model M77 in .223. No more balky push feed rifles for me. WELL much to my surprise AND dismay, apparently my M77s aren't exactly controlled round feed either! Bummer, I'd just spent nearly $1600 for rifles that are essentially push feed rifles with large extractors and fixed ejectors. Watch the attached videos on both rifles and you'll see what I mean; they'll strip a round free from the magazine but it is in no way then under the control of the extractor. As you can see it is possible to short stroke the rifle and tie it up. CRF is supposed to eliminate this scenario. Only when you push the bolt forward far enough and with enough force does the extractor grab the cartridge rim. If this were one rifle I'd be pissed but possibly understand that a lemon gets through every now and then and Murphy usually dictates that I get it, BUT two rifles that function/malfunction the same way. To say I'm disappointed is a gross understatement. I guess if I wanted CRF I should have bought a Winchester M70 or a CZ. If I wanted a push feed rifle, which is apparently what I got, then the best bargain going is the Savage Axis...it may be balky about feeding/extracting but they're incredibly accurate and I could have gotten nearly 6 of them for what I paid for my two rifles. The Ruger American looks promising too for a push feed rifle but if you want a true CRF rifle I'd suggest you look elsewhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKSTTo1pqy8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4vs3k1oTHY&context=C3cc49feADOEgsToPDskLkZuEsVOofu49qOV8htyiU

 

[TRanger]

Definitely not the way CRF is supposed to work. My Mausers and pre-64 Model 70 work the way they're supposed to.

 

[boray]

Thats pretty funny, now actually try to operate the bolt in the correct manner and it won't fail.

I can make my Jeep rollover and claim the manufacturer built an unsafe vehicle.

What the hell's so funny about it? In a true controlled round feed rifle the cartridge will go straight under the extractor and be CONTROLLED the moment it leaves the magazine. I've seen your replies to older posts regarding this same situation and must assume that you don't really know what controlled round feed is. No matter HOW I operate the bolt the cartridge won't leave the magazine and go under the extractor (the definition of CRF), but I can operate the bolt like a push feed by pushing the bolt all the way forward with the extractor eventually snapping over the rim but THAT'S NOT HOW CONTROLLED ROUND FEED WORKS!!!. The gun functions perfectly albeit as a push feed. If you think this is how a controlled round feed rifle should work you're entirely mistaken! Your jeep analogy is a poor example unless of course it rolls over while backing out of the driveway: in other words it fails while being used as intended like my M77s do. Fortunately while they may fail at CRF they sill function as push feeds. Here's a great video that shows how a controlled round feed rifle is supposed to work. Watch it and learn something.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZZphk6JWfQ

 

[boray]

Definitely not the way CRF is supposed to work. My Mausers and pre-64 Model 70 work the way they're supposed to.

I know what you mean...The very first rifle I owned was a pre 64 model 70 Winchester in .264 magnum. Do the current model 70s work any better than the current Rugers regarding CRFing?

 

[dgoalie]

I have a NIB Hawkeye. I guess I will be trying this side by side with my M77 and MKIIs. Hopefully I can give you my finding tonight.

 

[rugerjunkie]

Boray,

Instead of ranting nonstop about the rifles supposed faults why did you not do all the research like the info on your links you posted before you bought the rifles?? Kind of like not researching a car before you buy it and then being pissed at the car dealer after you get home and realize it doesnt have the engine or options you wanted...

So it isnt a true controlled feed...its still better than a push feed. And as far as I know the extractor being able to slip over the rim is part of the 77's design. At least that way if something does go wrong you can still close the bolt and fire.

 

[boray]

I have a NIB Hawkeye. I guess I will be trying this side by side with my M77 and MKIIs. Hopefully I can give you my finding tonight.

I'll be interested to know if yours actually functions as a CRF. Thanks for the input and I look forward to your results.

 

[boray]

Boray,

Instead of ranting nonstop about the rifles supposed faults why did you not do all the research like the info on your links you posted before you bought the rifles?? Kind of like not researching a car before you buy it and then being pissed at the car dealer after you get home and realize it doesnt have the engine or options you wanted...

So it isnt a true controlled feed...its still better than a push feed. And as far as I know the extractor being able to slip over the rim is part of the 77's design. At least that way if something does go wrong you can still close the bolt and fire.

Your post make no sense. What links did I post that should have informed me that the Hawkeye is push feed and isn't true CRF??? I suspect YOUR mistake was you didn't realize the two short videos I linked to were MY VIDEOS showing MY two new rifles functioning as push feeds not CRFs. Every review I could find referenced the M77's CRF capabilities yet NO WHERE can I find a review that states the Hawkeye is a push feed design. And you're darned right if I bought a truck that was supposed to be four wheel drive and it wasn't you bet I'd be mad. The fact that the extractor CAN snap over the cartridge rim is indeed a part of the M77 design BUT it does not preclude the rifle being CRF it's merely a bonus to a CRF design if a cartridge should prematurely leave the magazine. Perhaps in the future instead of ranting non stop about something you're mistaken about, you should take time to thoroughly read a post before offering your "expert" opinion. It helps avoid a lot of embarrassment.

 

[joker12]

I have 2 hawkeyes, a .270 and a 9.3x62 and both are true crf rifles. The round comes from the magazine with the rim fully controlled by the extractor. I believe that the gunsite rifle, because it feeds from a removeable magazine was never intended to be crf and was not advertised as such.

 

[rugerjunkie]

Not embarrassed at all. I'll even admit that i didnt look at your links. Was on my phone and was unable to and just assumed they were something they weren't. Im not the one ranting here either. If you dislike the rifles that much sell them and buy one that makes you happy. Its easy.

 

[boray]

Not embarrassed at all. I'll even admit that i didnt look at your links. Was on my phone and was unable to and just assumed they were something they weren't. Im not the one ranting here either. If you dislike the rifles that much sell them and buy one that makes you happy. Its easy.

You admit you didn't look at the links. You admit you wrongly assumed what you thought they may be about, yet you took it upon yourself to tell ME to stop ranting about a topic you knew absolutely nothing about? Are ALL your posts admittedly just inane ramblings totally unrelated to the subject based simply on what you thought a post may be about? I'll thank you to keep your uninformed ramblings to yourself and kindly never reply to any of my posts. It's easy.

 

[boray]

I have 2 hawkeyes, a .270 and a 9.3x62 and both are true crf rifles. The round comes from the magazine with the rim fully controlled by the extractor. I believe that the gunsite rifle, because it feeds from a removeable magazine was never intended to be crf and was not advertised as such.

Thanks for the info Joker. That's very interesting. I wonder if the fact that yours are long actions may have anything to do with it? I suppose that the angle of the cartridge coming out of the magazine may not be as steep versus the short action but I'm just guessing. Yes, I believe you are correct that the Gunsite Scout was never intended to be CRF. Although my rifles work just fine as push feeds I sure wish they worked as CRFs. Thanks again!

 

[rugerjunkie]

Not embarrassed at all. I'll even admit that i didnt look at your links. Was on my phone and was unable to and just assumed they were something they weren't. Im not the one ranting here either. If you dislike the rifles that much sell them and buy one that makes you happy. Its easy.

You admit you didn't look at the links. You admit you wrongly assumed what you thought they may be about, yet you took it upon yourself to tell ME to stop ranting about a topic you knew absolutely nothing about? Are ALL your posts admittedly just inane ramblings totally unrelated to the subject based simply on what you thought a post may be about? I'll thank you to keep your uninformed ramblings to yourself and kindly never reply to any of my posts. It's easy.

Lol! No prob! Life goes on just the same. Didnt matter that you werent in it before and i doubt my future will be affected if you arent in that either!

Enjoy your new rifles if thats possible...

 

[mattsbox99]

Thats pretty funny, now actually try to operate the bolt in the correct manner and it won't fail.

I can make my Jeep rollover and claim the manufacturer built an unsafe vehicle.

What the hell's so funny about it? In a true controlled round feed rifle the cartridge will go straight under the extractor and be CONTROLLED the moment it leaves the magazine. I've seen your replies to older posts regarding this same situation and must assume that you don't really know what controlled round feed is. No matter HOW I operate the bolt the cartridge won't leave the magazine and go under the extractor (the definition of CRF), but I can operate the bolt like a push feed by pushing the bolt all the way forward with the extractor eventually snapping over the rim but THAT'S NOT HOW CONTROLLED ROUND FEED WORKS!!!. The gun functions perfectly albeit as a push feed. If you think this is how a controlled round feed rifle should work you're entirely mistaken! Your jeep analogy is a poor example unless of course it rolls over while backing out of the driveway: in other words it fails while being used as intended like my M77s do. Fortunately while they may fail at CRF they sill function as push feeds. Here's a great video that shows how a controlled round feed rifle is supposed to work. Watch it and learn something.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZZphk6JWfQ

I did watch your idiotic videos, all I see in there is a buffoon trying to make them fail. Your rant clearly proves that.

 

[dgoalie]

OK, I got to test my actions. I had never run all the actions at the same time and it told me a lot.

First, my 1972 M77 7x57 is of course a push feed and has the smoothest action of my M77s. I know that really doesn't apply, but the rifle is such a sweetheart. I had been considering selling it, but I'm not sure I want to after working that action a bunch tonight.

Next I grabbed my 2000 M77 MarkII 30-06. Of the CRF rifles this has the most positive control on the cartridge. Works very well.

Then I tried my 2008 M77 MarkII 270. It too is definitely control feed though not quite as good as the earlier 30-06.

Finally I got to the 2011 Hawkeye (7x57 stainless international). It worked exactly like the 270. There was a noticeable difference in how well the 30-06 holds the cartridges vs the later model MarkII and Hawkeye. That being said they functioned correctly and controlled the round.

Sorry Boray. I know all mine were also long actions, but it seems that yours are not functioing properly. I went back and watched the videos again just to make sure I hadn't missed something, but your rounds are definitely popping out of the magazine a little early. They should stay under the lip of the magazine long enough for the extractor to get over the rim of the cartridge to control it. If you are not satisfied, please call Ruger and give them a chance to see what is happening. Also, have you taken the follower and spring out of the magazines at all? After my test I stretched the magazine spring a bit on my 270 and it jumps up under the extractor a bit more positively. Looks like that could help especially on your 308.

One more note. None of my CRF M77s will hold a round being worked back and forth 4 or 5 times. Once or twice it will stay, but they do shake loose. Of course hopefully one would realize they need to close the bolt after the first short stroke. It isn't a pump shotgun.

 

[3DTESTIFY]

Boray, I feel your frustration. I've owned two MKII's, a 2008 RSI .270 & a 2005 RL .257. The RSI would strip the round from the magazine, grasp the case head & control the cartridge to the chamber as should be with a CRF action. The RL would push the cartridge into the chamber, very frustrating. The only way to get the RL to control feed was to force the bolt forward with great speed, and then only sometimes.

 

[RJ556]

I tested my MKII stainless RSI 7x57 and it worked classic CRF! Yes! Give me a high Five Boray! :lol: Now it was a different story on my MKII in .223 Rem. With a small case head like that you will never have CRF because by the time the round is released from the magazine lips, it still is not high enough in the bolt head for the bolt to have control of it. The only way to have a CRF action with a small case head like the .223 Rem, is to have a very small bolt head. The CZ 527 in .223 may be CRF, I don't know but I don't want a toy sized bolt anyway. So if you are worried about having a jam on your .223 and suffering the consequences of being trampled and possibly eaten by vicious hostile prairie dogs, you better have a side arm ready of have someone backing you up. :lol:

 

[boray]

I'd sincerely like to thank everyone for the informed and knowledgeable opinions. You've provided exactly the information I've needed. dgoalie thank you especially for the extensive testing. I think the logical conclusion regarding Hawkeyes is that they COULD and probably SHOULD function as CRF however whether they do or not is purely chance. The odds seem to be better that a long action will function correctly. Again gentlemen thank you all for the very helpful input.

P.S. As a fairly new guy around here I quickly learned that there are some very knowledgeable and helpful people here, unfortunately there also happens to be some prolific posters who'll expound at length on subjects they clearly know nothing about. Are these people actually helpful participating members or simply well known but tolerated trolls?

 

[boray]

I tested my MKII stainless RSI 7x57 and it worked classic CRF! Yes! Give me a high Five Boray! :lol: Now it was a different story on my MKII in .223 Rem. With a small case head like that you will never have CRF because by the time the round is released from the magazine lips, it still is not high enough in the bolt head for the bolt to have control of it. The only way to have a CRF action with a small case head like the .223 Rem, is to have a very small bolt head. The CZ 527 in .223 may be CRF, I don't know but I don't want a toy sized bolt anyway. So if you are worried about having a jam on your .223 and suffering the consequences of being trampled and possibly eaten by vicious hostile prairie dogs, you better have a side arm ready of have someone backing you up. :lol:

Thanks RJ556, that sort of confirms the theory that long actions are more likely to function as CRF. Your theory regarding the smaller diameter .223 makes sense as well; to get CRF in the smaller cartridge would require scaling down all the components of the action.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Here are two threads that I remember talking about the same thing I think except it was a Ruger GSR.

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=139580&highlight=gsr

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=139551&highlight=gsr

 

[DPris]

Older .30-06 International, newer .308 Compact Magnum.
Case rim pops into the extractor when the bolt's about halfway forward, as the round comes up out of the feed lips.

Two 8mm Yugomausers, one an M48 the other a 24/47.
Both do the same thing.

None of othe four requires the extractor to pop over or around the rim to close the bolt.

Fast or slow, the case rim is correctly positioned between the boltface & extractor hook by the time the bolt closes.
Denis

 

[mcknight77]

My MKIIs work as CRF as advertised. Don't own any Hawkeyes.

All my Flatbolts are push feed and function perfectly.

Much ado about nothing, ref CRF.

JMHO

 

[rugerfreak]

Guess I never paid attn---I was having too much fun shooting my Hawkeye.

 

[mattsbox99]

"prolific posters who'll expound at length on subjects they clearly know nothing about. Are these people actually helpful participating members or simply well known but tolerated trolls?"

Too funny man, I'm stealing this.


On a side note, if you take a little emery cloth to the feed rails and polish them up a little you'll find the cartridges slide up under the claw better and it'll function the way you desire.

 

[Lloyd Smale]

never saw where ruger advertised them as control round feed guns.

 

[boray]

never saw where ruger advertised them as control round feed guns.

Lloyd, I've contacted Ruger and they have assured me that they are indeed supposed to function in a controlled round feed manner...to quote directly from their email "Both of those rifle should be a controlled feed". I don't know that it's a feature they actually advertize and it may be because to get them to actually function as CRF would require extra attention and labor, but as their email confirms, they are indeed supposed to be CRF. Thanks.

 

[boray]

"prolific posters who'll expound at length on subjects they clearly know nothing about. Are these people actually helpful participating members or simply well known but tolerated trolls?"

Too funny man, I'm stealing this.


On a side note, if you take a little emery cloth to the feed rails and polish them up a little you'll find the cartridges slide up under the claw better and it'll function the way you desire.

Glad I could humor you man! You know the old adage; If the shoe fits, wear it. Feel free to use it anytime though. Truthfully though I don't really enjoy our banter and find you obnoxious and boorish. I'm sure it's just me. I'd ask you kindly to please ignore my posts in the future. As busy a man as you are, with the number of posts you have on this forum, surely it wouldn't be too much to ask that you skip my comments and spend the time you'd waste replying to me, shooting, or with your vast knowledge of everything, maybe writing a novel or curing cancer. Your talents are wasted on someone like me and I'm sure there are others more in need of your services. So again, please, in the future just pretend I don't exist. Knowing the psychological disorder you suffer from prevents you from just leaving it at this, I eagerly await your reply to claim the last word.

 

[boray]

Older .30-06 International, newer .308 Compact Magnum.
Case rim pops into the extractor when the bolt's about halfway forward, as the round comes up out of the feed lips.

Two 8mm Yugomausers, one an M48 the other a 24/47.
Both do the same thing.

None of othe four requires the extractor to pop over or around the rim to close the bolt.

Fast or slow, the case rim is correctly positioned between the boltface & extractor hook by the time the bolt closes.
Denis

Denis, thanks for the confirmation! It's good to know that both your long action and short action function as CRF. As you noted, cartridges should leave the magazine lips and immediately be under the control of the extractor. Thanks again for taking the time to look at your rifles.

 

[Chief 101]

I haven't been able to make mine feed improperly...jus' sayin. 70's long action in the 25 robts cal.

 

[boray]

I haven't been able to make mine feed improperly...jus' sayin. 70's long action in the 25 robts cal.

Chief if it's a 70's model I don't think it's supposed to be a CRF anyway. My understanding is that it was just after the introduction of the MKII that the modifications were made to allow for CRF, prior to that they were push feeds. Those older models sure feel slick though don't they?