Engineers need hands on. . . RANT

[Fox Mike]

My wife's Tucson had the left low beam headlight burn out. Simple replacement; turn the water shield 1/4 turn and remove. Now turn the actual lamp socket assembly 1/4 turn and remove and replace the bulb. Re-install in the opposite direction. Sounds simple EXCEPT the engineers placed the main fuse block direct behind the access area. Had to resort to using my 'knipex alligator' pliers to turn both parts both in and out. Engineers should be required to make the repairs prior to placing something near the part.

 

[Tallbald]

I agree so very much.
How about my compact '92 pickup 4 cylinder? Oil pump went out at 128K miles, supposedly from deteriorating sealant the manufacturer used and which clogged the take-up screen with particles (I was told by my mechanic). The entire engine had to be removed to be able to drop the oil pan and replace the sump because a frame cross member prevented dropping the pan without engine removal. $15 part, hundreds to remove and re-install the engine and hood. Of course I could have been scammed. But that's what I was told by several mechanics when I checked out the story. Read about another USA brand that had a compact car in the early 80's in which a service tech had to either remove the engine to change one of the spark plugs, or drill a 1.25 inch hole through the inner fender to get to the plug cheaply then plug it with a rubber grommet.
Reminds me of some hospital administrators I've worked under as a nurse who had no real idea of life "on the unit" but "knew it would work because the experts said so...".
Sheesh.
Don

 

[Dave P.]

There are some truly brilliant engineers in the world.
There are average ones that are enslaved to the
cost-cutting bean counter of the world.
And unfortunately, some that are lucky to feed
themselves with a fork.
They need to be taken out and have a car door
slammed on their penis as penance for their
stupidity.
Dave

 

[Dave P.]

. Read about another USA brand that had a compact car in the early 80's in which a service tech had to either remove the engine to change one of the spark plugs, or drill a 1.25 inch hole through the inner fender to get to the plug cheaply then plug it with a rubber grommet.Sheesh.
Don

That would have been a V-8 Chevy Monza among others.
Dave

 

[Fox Mike]

On the Isuzu SOHC engine the quickest and easiest way to replace alternator was to pull the right side CV joint/axle to gain access.
Having worked on the Cobra helicopter I can tell some real 'engineering wizardry' stories.

 

[Rick Courtright]

Engineers should be required to make the repairs prior to placing something near the part.

Hi,

I've told this story before, but the lesson is as valuable today as ever before:

Some years back I had a co-worker who'd been a jet mechanic in the Navy, and worked on biz-jets for a while after he got out. He was talking about working on a Lear jet one day, and I asked if that was quite a struggle (a friend had flown them, with good things to say, but never worked on them.) He said no, Lears were his favorite aircraft to work on, because when Mr. Lear (Bill) was still alive, he had a policy where the engineers would work in their office for six months. Then they'd swap the shirt and tie for a pair of coveralls, then go out on the floor to actually work hands on with what they'd been designing.

Six months on a computer or at a drafting table leaves one's hands pretty soft, so they cut easily when they hit obstacles in tight places. My friend said the first drop of blood would send the "victim" scurrying back inside to fix the problem! He said after Bill's death, Mrs. Lear took over, and kept that policy in place. Good for her! More places should follow that lead...

Rick C

 

[bogus bill]

Once had the freeze plug blow out on my 1972 Ford pickup. I bought another and eventually fixed it myself as I couldn't afford a mechanic. It was the most frustrating thing I ever done. Frame in the way etc. I ended up cutting a hole in the floor of the pickup to get to it and I was on the road, not home.

 

[pisgah]

An old friend of mine, now deceased, was a fine mechanic. He used to rant about a certain-model Mustang (during the '90's? Can't recall). In order to remove and replace the spark plugs of the V8 version, you had to remove both left and right front fenders...

Cars today are designed for easy of assembly, not for ease of maintenance and repair.

 

[blume357]

My mechanic told me there are a number of Cheveys now that the insulation on the wiring is made from a soy product... "going more green" the only problem is mice, rats and squirrels especially like to eat it.....

 

[GunnyGene]

I heard there was a fix for that kind of thing. Manufacturers will be putting a sign on the dash of all new models: "WARNING - There are NO User Servicable parts on or in this vehicle. Any attempt by an owner to do anything other than DRIVE IT or refuel the vehicle automatically VOIDS THE WARRANTY. "

 

[RoninPA]

I don't know about now, but when I was in the USAF I got know some civilian jet engine mechanics. Except they were actually GE engine engineers. New GE aircraft engine engineers had to work in the field for at least 6 months doing removal/reinstall/teardowns/buildups of the aircraft engines before they were ever allowed to work at designing them. I got to know them because I was the one who calibrated the scales and balances they had to use to weigh each and every fan blade when rebuilding an engine so that they could balance it properly when they put it back together. They would swear the scales were wrong so I would take the reference standards (traceable to NIST (the old National Bureau of Standards)) to the shop and prove to them the scales were correct.

When I worked at my last job, the engineers would always run designs and mods through the service dept. so we could tell them what would work or not out in the field. And they listened to us. We always did tell them that the most dangerous person in the world was an engineer with a wrench in his (or her) hands because we didn't know how they were going to use it (wrench, hammer, doorstop, etc.).

 

[any ruger]

How about dodge products remove front wheel and fender panel to change battery.

 

[Dan in MI]

Having spent my life in the automotive business I will shed some info.

Take the OP for instance. There MAY have been an easier way to do it. Some PDB's (fuse box) have spring clips to move the whole box in seconds. I was complaining to a battery engineer one day about how hard it was to swap the battery on a particular car. He said their "rules" were the battery must be able to be replaced in 5 min or less. I laughed and then he told me the trick for that model car. What looked like a nightmare mess to remove was a simple couple bolts (the right bolts of course) to pull out and then the battery was completely free. Once I knew that rule I never had an issue with any battery again. I just looked for the magic sequence. (or found the shop manual)

Regarding the drill a hole to replace sparks plugs. I'm not familiar with that one specifically, but I know door panels used to have dimples in the places you had to drill to remove power window motors. So yes, the engineers did plan for service. Just not how you would expect it.

What you don't know/understand is EVERYTHING to do with engineering on a vehicle is a compromise.

The alternator engineer has to deal with powertrain, electrical, packaging (your general complaint group) and many more. Each has their own set of rules, some corporate, some physical, some emissions, some MPG, some Federal laws, etc.

For an off the cuff example with our alternator guy. He wants a 250A alternator. The electrical guys says it only needs to be 200A to fulfill the vehicle needs. The battery guy wants the 250A. The starter guy wants 250A also. The engine guys says that's too much drag, eats up 22H.P. The MPG guys says it eats 22 HP and .15 MPG when running full tilt, and .05 MPG the rest of the time. Both want the 200A. The emission guys says it causes the engine to work too hard upping the emissions output at 250A. We fail EPA certification, you must drop it to 200A. The packaging guy says if you use the 250A I’ll have to get the body guys to put a bump in the hood, but 200A fits down in that little corner under the A/C without any changes. The wiring guy says 250A requires 10 gauge wire. We’re commanded to use 12 gauge to save weight for MPG. Now the climate guy is screaming at 200A we can’t cool the car interior within our 5 minute rule. We must have 250A for a better fan......and on and on and on.

EVERYTHING in that scenario is realistic. The fun comes when all the groups start fighting for turf. They all want what they want because it makes their system work better/best, but it may harm other systems to get what they want. There is an order of who wins in every scenario.

Safety wins over anything else. Then Federal laws (safety, emissions, mpg) Then it is a turf war with compromises all the way down the line.

You may have a legitimate gripe, but then again it may be a well known, but not doable change on that model car.

 

[ned]

Brilliant synopsis. I worked at Boeing most of my life- same struggles between groups. We had CATIA (CAD) and could do electronic mock ups with CATIA man- if the simulation could not reach the connector to unscrew it...well, back to the drawing board so the speak

 

[Dave P.]

For an off the cuff example with our alternator guy. He wants a 250A alternator. The electrical guys says it only needs to be 200A to fulfill the vehicle needs. The battery guy wants the 250A. The starter guy wants 250A also. The engine guys says that's too much drag, eats up 22H.P. The MPG guys says it eats 22 HP and .15 MPG when running full tilt, and .05 MPG the rest of the time. Both want the 200A. The emission guys says it causes the engine to work too hard upping the emissions output at 250A. We fail EPA certification, you must drop it to 200A. The packaging guy says if you use the 250A I’ll have to get the body guys to put a bump in the hood, but 200A fits down in that little corner under the A/C without any changes. The wiring guy says 250A requires 10 gauge wire. We’re commanded to use 12 gauge to save weight for MPG. Now the climate guy is screaming at 200A we can’t cool the car interior within our 5 minute rule. We must have 250A for a better fan......and on and on and on.

EVERYTHING in that scenario is realistic. The fun comes when all the groups start fighting for turf. They all want what they want because it makes their system work better/best, but it may harm other systems to get what they want. There is an order of who wins in every scenario.

Safety wins over anything else. Then Federal laws (safety, emissions, mpg) Then it is a turf war with compromises all the way down the line.

You may have a legitimate gripe, but then again it may be a well known, but not doable change on that model car.

You left off the bean counters!
Dave

 

[Achigan]

I agree so very much.
How about my compact '92 pickup 4 cylinder? Oil pump went out at 128K miles, supposedly from deteriorating sealant the manufacturer used and which clogged the take-up screen with particles (I was told by my mechanic). The entire engine had to be removed to be able to drop the oil pan and replace the sump because a frame cross member prevented dropping the pan without engine removal. $15 part, hundreds to remove and re-install the engine and hood. Of course I could have been scammed. But that's what I was told by several mechanics when I checked out the story. Read about another USA brand that had a compact car in the early 80's in which a service tech had to either remove the engine to change one of the spark plugs, or drill a 1.25 inch hole through the inner fender to get to the plug cheaply then plug it with a rubber grommet.
Reminds me of some hospital administrators I've worked under as a nurse who had no real idea of life "on the unit" but "knew it would work because the experts said so...".
Sheesh.
Don

That might have been the Chevy Citation 6 banger. Had to loosen the motor mount to tilt the engine to replace rear plugs.

 

[contender]

I've had a saying for decades.

"One of these days,,, I'm going to be in a social situation, and ask a guy what he does for a living. To which he replies; "I'm an automotive engineer."
When the silly SOB wakes up in the hospital,,, I'll be right there to show him what happened,,,,, AGAIN!"

Sadly, after almost 30 years of saying that,, it actually happened at a blackjack table in Vegas. When the guy said he worked as an engineer for GM,,, my first thoughts were; "Damn,, to many cameras, & not enough bail money, & I don't know anybody."

 

[Dan in MI]

You left off the bean counters! Dave

He's hiding behind the 10g/12g wiring guy. To scared too speak up, but has a knife in the wiring guys back to use the MPG excuse. (federal law- more priority)

Also, the bean counters really show up in the second year of production. They can see where to slice then. MCR actions (material cost reductions) There are still all the same fights, but the dollar starts getting more priority in the turf wars. "What do you mean you can't keep emission low with 50% less precious metal in the catalyst? The computer shows you can!"

In case you didn't know, catalytic converters use metals that are worth up to double their weight in gold.
Yesterday's prices, Gold- $1292, Platinum - $847, Palladium - $1364, Rhodium - $2945 (the latter three used in cats)

 

[Mobuck]

I'm a college educated engineer. During that education, I often argued vehemently with instructors and other students over the designs and drawings of designs because most made no allowance for R & R or access to parts that were bound to wear. The others had never spent hours attempting to fix something that couldn't be reached w/o disassembling 1/2 the machine. Access panels and bolts you can actually get a wrench on weren't part of the education.

 

[Dave P.]

In case you didn't know, catalytic converters use metals that are worth up to double their weight in gold.
Yesterday's prices, Gold- $1292, Platinum - $847, Palladium - $1364, Rhodium - $2945 (the latter three used in cats)[/quote]

Yup, that's why the lowlife with the cordless saw is crawled under
that truck out there!
Dave

 

[Poco Oso]

That might have been the Chevy Citation 6 banger. Had to loosen the motor mount to tilt the engine to replace rear plugs

Had to do this on my '88 Grand Prix, with a transverse mounted V6.

 

[Fox Mike]

. . . .He's hiding behind the 10g/12g wiring guy. To scared too speak up, but has a knife in the wiring guys back to use the MPG excuse. (federal law- more priority)

We called that the "brother-in-law effect". Why build something with one 10 ohm resistor when my b-i-l builds 5 ohm resistors. A ten and five cost the same so let's use two fives and make 100% profit.

 

[Rick Courtright]

You left off the bean counters!

Hi,

If he'd put them in, the alternator would probably be 150 amps and the owner would be bellyaching like he(c)k about having to buy a new $150 (also probably undersized) battery every other year! And I'll bet all those "gas saving" tricks don't come close to saving him that $150 to at least make it a zero sum game... :evil:

Rick C

 

[427mach1]

Let's just get rid of all the engineers and everything they design or produce! That car you find so difficult to work on? You would no longer have to worry about it; it would have never been designed or built without engineers. Go back to relying on your own two legs or a horse for transportation. Would you like to fly in an airplane that didn't have an engineer's input? The computer you are looking at right now? Designed by an engineer. You can get rid of it, save a little electricity (which would not exist without engineers) and write letters back and forth instead of communicating via this forum on the internet, also designed by an engineer, not Al Gore. The guns we all enjoy collecting, trading, and shooting? You guessed it, designed and tested by an engineer. Go ahead and get rid of all of them and make yourself a bow and arrow. Make sure you don't use any power tools, however, as those, too were designed by engineers. Take a look around right now. Just about everything you see in your house has, at some point, been designed, spec'd, and tested by an engineer. Complain all you want, your way of life and all the modern conveniences we all enjoy are the result of the hard work of engineers.

 

[Fox Mike]

Not suggesting the elimination of engineers; just suggesting that they get out from behind their desks and actually place hands on the item they are designing and make sure it is accessible to replace/repair. They might even talk to the guy/gal designing the item next to the one they are working on.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

And I will suggest that most of the uninformed critics in this thread spend a few years working in an engineering capacity in industry to fully understand where engineering falls in the hierarchy of the overall manufacturing process. There never was a good design that couldn't be totally compromised by various marketing/accounting/production/management decisions. Ask any engineer with a few years on him.

:roll:

 

[gunzo]

I've sought the help of many an Engineer.

On the other hand I've nearly prayed that their educators had put them "on the floor" for 6 months or so while they were getting their degree.. So many of them try, but have no real life understanding of their applications.

There's no education that can replace "hands on".

 

[427mach1]

As an engineer with 33+ years of experience, I agree that all engineers should get hands-on experience. The aircraft plant where I work used to have a good co-op program where the engineering students would work on the factory floor assembling airplanes. Since the co-ops were salaried, the union began complaining that they were replacing union hourly jobs and as a result, the co-ops were no longer allowed to perform the touch-labor. Big mistake in my opinion.

I've worked with some engineers that have very little practical or hands-on experience and I've worked with some engineers that could do just about anything. Just like anything else, you can't lump all of us together. I learned early on in my career to ask the hourly co-workers (wind tunnel model builders and machinists) for their input. I value their skills and experience and I gained their respect by treating them as equals. I have a lot of hands-on hobbies such as wood working, guns, and muscle cars. One of my friends commented on something I made, saying that "engineers can build anything!" and I replied, "Not all of them, just the good ones!"

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

I drove a train once. Can I call myself an engineer now?

Besides the hands on stuff, one of the several "other kind" of engineers in the family reinforced the famous saying that says "Those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat its mistakes." He said a large part of his work involved research, to see if someone else had tackled the same problem before him, and how they did at it. Did their answer solve the problem, or was it still in need of a solution? In other words, don't try to reinvent the wheel. Seemed like good practice to me...

Rick C

 

[Selena]

Having been the victim of a number of "industrial" engineers, usually in the middle of the field in less than perfect weather. I have to agree that there are many machines that on-site repair and in some cases even maintenance were a secondary consideration. Having also been the beneficiary of a number of "redneck" engineers I have to say that I admire the creativity and attention to detail involved in designing a useful machine.

Unfortunately, like all professions, engineers are bound by the harnesses of reality. It's not enough that the products of their imagination match the job intended but they must do so profitably. Add to it to the age old battle that has been waged between the engineer and the technician. I mean let's face facts, the people using the machines have been complaining about the people designing the since Archimedes first discovered that a lever will lift great weight. But then again, mankind has a history of improvement from the technicians complaining to the engineers. People complaining about having to manually change the direction of steam inspired Murdoch to produce the long slide D valve which made possible the locomotive and steamship. Petroleum technicians continually getting beat up for pouring the lighter components of the manufacture of lamp oil inspired the invention of the use for that component – the Otto cycle engine. Then after Edison made lamp oil obsolete in stepped Rudolph Diesel and created an engine that used the heavier components.

Mankind's history is simply a list of the species' engineering achievements. By and large those achievements were inspired by complaints from the people doing the actual work. So when you're flat on your back attempting to fit a socket wrench and a three inch extension through a two inch access port and speculating on the engineers' ancestry and his parents marital status. Be sure and put it in writing and send it to the manufacture. You may just inspire the next innovation that helps send mankind to Mars.