Elmer Keith wanna-be?

[CraigC]

I am going to apologize to the forum in advance. It really burns my ass that we have to have the same discussions with the same people, providing the same facts over and over again only to have to do it....one more time.

I have yet to see a single reference indicating that loads advocated by some people have been tested by ANY ballistic laboratory.

Well surveyor, as usual when Elmer Keith comes up, you show nothing but pure ignorance. If you had ever read any of Keith's work, you would know that he had his loads pressure tested at H.P. White labs. You would know that his famous .44Spl load tested at 26,000psi. His first friggin' book, published in 1936, has this information in it. If you had read anything about this stuff at all, you would also know that Keith's contemporary, Brian Pearce, also had the load tested at H.P. White labs and again, it tested at 26,000psi. In 80yrs of consistent use, it has been well proven in suitable guns and YOU, despite the number of times we've been around this block, have NEVER been able to produce a single incident where a gun was destroyed with his load.

According to ballisticians at Hodgon, old Elmer was supplied with revolvers by S&W to support his experiments and many went back to S&W in pieces.

Prove it. How would the ballisticians at Hodgdon's know anything, if he did most of his experiments with Hercules powder? Prove this nonsense. Elmer Keith only destroyed one sixgun in his lifetime, that I know of, from actually reading his work. That was a military surplus blackpowder Colt SAA .45Colt that was loaded with a .45-70 bullet cut down to 300gr and stuffed over a caseful of blackpowder.

They were designed for lead bullets, not jacketed bullets, whcih greatly increase pressure and stresses.

Pure BS. The K-frame was designed for cartridges like the .32-20 and .38Spl. Like the N-frame, it was adapted to the .357Mag. It has been supplanted by the L-frame just like the .38Spl has been supplanted by the .357 in everything but snubbies. The material the bullets are constructed of is irrelevant.

Elmer destroyed them and S&W figured out how to make them strong enough to withstand his loads in a cycle that lasted years.

More BS. Elmer did not destroy them and S&W did very little to the N-frame to accommodate the .44Mag until the `90's. S&W did not make them strong enough for Keith's loads. They went two steps further. All Keith wanted was to legitimize his heavy .44Spl load. What we got was the .44Mag in a longer case, loaded to higher pressures and 300fps higher velocity. Again, if you knew anything about this or had read Keith's work, this would not be the foreign concept it appears to be.

 

[steve b]

I've always scratched my head at folks that pay for a custom handgun, to be made exactly as some famous gun writers was. So, not so custom really ? Lack of their own imagination ? Am open to opinions here. steve b

 

[CraigC]

I've always scratched my head at folks that pay for a custom handgun, to be made exactly as some famous gun writers was. So, not so custom really ? Lack of their own imagination ? Am open to opinions here. steve b

If it's built how YOU want it, it's a custom gun. No matter how many people before you wanted it the same way.

 

[steve b]

Right down to the carvings in the grip panels ? steve b

 

[CraigC]

If that's what you want, hell yeah! Everything is based on something. Everybody is inspired by something or somebody. There is no shame in having a sixgun built like someone else's, as long as it's how you want to spend your money. My first custom was inspired by one in Taffin's first "Lil Ruger" article back in the late `80's. Except mine is hard chrome instead of nickel and has a 4 5/8" barrel instead of 3¾". Does that make it any less "custom"? Of course not. As many options as there are, it is nigh on impossible to have one built that is completely original. Nor can you keep anybody from copying yours.

How many custom guns have you had built?

 

[targetshootr]

There was a time when kids were taught to avoid using the word "I". Back then, it was considered self-aggrandizing or boastful. Lots of "us" are still in the habit of using "sir" and "maam".

 

[surveyor47]

Craig C,
Why dont you do some fact checking with Hodgdon. Their phone number is 913-362-9455.

I have been informed by industry sources that there are some "bullies" on the various gun forums who shout down anyone who questions their loads. When a forum member complains that his gun was destroyed by this or that load, the "bully" laughs at the guy whose gun was destroyed.

I NEVER accept a load posted by a blogger as having ANY validity whatsoever, and consider them possibly malicious.

It is difficult enough to reconcile differences in loading data from manufacturers, without people telling readers that puslished loading data is invalid.

 

[CraigC]

I'm not calling Hodgdon's. You're the one making outlandish claims that I never heard anywhere at anytime. Your credibility is in serious queston. Because every time this comes up, you post a bunch of crap that is untrue.

Where is this bully whose loads are being questioned? Far as I know the data comes from Elmer Keith and he is dead. Where are these destroyed guns and the laughing bullies? Whose guns have been destroyed? Where are their complaints? What the hell are you talking about???

Who are these bloggers posting load data??? What the hell are you talking about???

Who is questioning published data? What the hell are you talking about???

Where do you get this drivel you're posting???

 

[Lee Martin]

So what unsafe loads are we even talking about? Powder type, charge weight, specific bullet, OAL, etc?

Not that I'm going to call Hodgdon either, but if I were I'd need details.

 

[Otony]

 

[Lee Martin]

Ya, I should know better than to go down this road....but I am curious to know the loads we're talking about here.

 

[Otony]

Well, I hope you know, it is certainly not directed at you or Craig!

 

[Lee Martin]

I know

 

[CraigC]

It's the same old story. Surveyor tore up his model 19 with a load recommended by Skeeter and Elmer 30yrs ago and has been butt-hurt over it ever since. He has made it his mission to deride anything that is not published in a loading manual. Even if it used to be. Anytime Elmer Keith or Skeeter Skelton is mentioned or the topic is heavy loads in the .38Spl, .44Spl and .45Colt, he comes in frothing at the mouth. He has an axe to grind against gunwriters and won't be swayed by the facts.

A little light reading:

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=882747

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=111943

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=76920

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=51794

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=21856

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=38587

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=81853

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2887

 

[contender]

First, we've gotten a bit off topic.

Next, in that area, I'd have to say that Lee has made some very good points.

Craig & surveyor, while y'all can disagree with each other, please keep the tone civil. 4 letter words aren't needed to make point.

 

[UmpquaCharlie]

I is a gunriter cuz him likes to rite. <vbg>

 

[TEXASFIVEGUN]

surveyor47, would you freak out if you knew I make up my own load data regularly? A little research, knowledge, experience, and nerve has done much for my shooting.

 

[0314m]

"nvbirdman" says "Maybe we already get more than enough "I" and "me" from Obama."

Good one !!

says I......I mean me.....I mean we.

 

[CraigC]

4 letter words aren't needed to make point.

I disagree and have seen a lot worse than "hell" on this forum go completely unnoticed. Last I checked, it is not a "four letter word" and gets uttered in churches across America every Sunday. If you had read the threads I linked to, you might understand my tone. :roll:

 

[5of7]

surveyor47, would you freak out if you knew I make up my own load data regularly? A little research, knowledge, experience, and nerve has done much for my shooting.

I am not about to chastise anyone for opting for caution over experimentation, but I also think that given sufficient experience as a handloader, one can make his own loading data.

All it takes is a good chronograph and enough knowledge to understand the importance of propellant burning rates.

If, for example, one understands that H4227 has a slower burning rate that Alliant 2400, then he also knows that substituting 4227 for 2400 in the same weights will be safe enough. The Chronograph will tell him what he is getting in the way of velocity and he can up the charge accordingly. That is just one example, there are lots of others.

But again, if one lacks either the understanding, the experience, or the chronograph, it is probably better to stick to data that has been tested by ballistic laboratories who do have the equipment and the necessary understanding of what they are doing.

That is my take on the question, but then, I have only been hand-loading for 58 years or so.... :roll: