Educate me please on striker fire pistols.

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edgalang

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JohnKSa said:
We can even go back to your claim regarding the trigger safety being ONLY partially true at best...
Ok, if we're back to this, please explain how the comments I made about the Glock trigger safety are partially in error, making them only partially true.


I've already covered your question on my 3rd post in this thread.
Remember, the OP asked for striker fire pistols.
Not all striker pistols are Glocks.
The Glock system was only used because I found a visual animation to help the OP.
No need to tunnel vision yourself to the Glock platform.

(for example the 1st gen SR9 for the lack of a trigger safety...
Why do you think they added the trigger safety in subsequent generations?
You are not understanding the point. The question is, if you think it was so important, why didn't you think they added it in the first place?
 

JohnKSa

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Not all striker pistols are Glocks.
True, but I have been responding to your comments specifically about Glocks and my comments along those lines have been specifically about Glocks.
No need to tunnel vision yourself to the Glock platform.
What does that mean? When talking about a particular aspect of Glock pistols, how is it "tunnel vision" to talk only about Glock pistols?
The question is, if you think it was so important, why didn't you think they added it in the first place?
I don't know the answer to that. My GUESS is that they initially thought they could get away without it and learned through experience that it really was required and that it had been a bad idea to try to do without it.
I've already covered your question on my 3rd post in this thread.
You've done no such thing.

You have alleged on multiple occasions that these two statements are only partially true. That means that you are claiming that some or all of each statement is false. Please highlight the portion of each statement that you believe is false and explain how the statement is incorrect.

"...the <Glock> trigger safety ultimately also is what ensures that the firing pin safety remains properly engaged."

"The <Glock> trigger safety is what holds the trigger bar immobile and that is ultimately what keeps the other two safeties engaged until the user pulls the trigger."
 

edgalang

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JohnKSa said:
Not all striker pistols are Glocks.
True, but I have been responding to your comments specifically about Glocks and my comments along those lines have been specifically about Glocks.
No need to tunnel vision yourself to the Glock platform.
What does that mean? When talking about a particular aspect of Glock pistols, how is it "tunnel vision" to talk only about Glock pistols?
The question is, if you think it was so important, why didn't you think they added it in the first place?
I don't know the answer to that. My GUESS is that they initially thought they could get away without it and learned through experience that it really was required and that it had been a bad idea to try to do without it.
I've already covered your question on my 3rd post in this thread.
You've done no such thing.

You have alleged on multiple occasions that these two statements are only partially true. That means that you are claiming that some or all of each statement is false. Please highlight the portion of each statement that you believe is false and explain how the statement is incorrect.

"...the <Glock> trigger safety ultimately also is what ensures that the firing pin safety remains properly engaged."

"The <Glock> trigger safety is what holds the trigger bar immobile and that is ultimately what keeps the other two safeties engaged until the user pulls the trigger."

I already have, but I'll repeat...like I mentioned in my example, without the drop safety or a chipped ejector, It is possible manipulate the trigger bar without having to engage the trigger safety...therefore to claim the "trigger safety is what holds the trigger bar immobile" is only partially true (and this example does not even require one to "drop" the pistol, since one can manually push the trigger bar down using a tool). Now, had you phrased it where "the trigger safety & the drop safety is what holds the trigger bar immobile until the user pulls the trigger" then I wouldn't of even made a comment.

As far as your "GUESS" as to why the SR9 existed without the trigger safety, the answer is irrelevant as it was a rhetorical question. The point I'm trying to hammer down is while it may be difficult for SOME to prioritize the safeties like you mentioned earlier, some form of ranking still exist and that example showed that Ruger obviously didn't think it was on the top of their list regardless if it was in error or not.

So with that said, back to my original comment...

If I had to rank the SR series safeties in terms of importance (we are on a Ruger forum afterall, and the Glock reference was mainly for the tutorial/animation and to convey how similar the Ruger SR models is to that.)
#1 drop safety (sear safety located at the back of the trigger bar)
#2 trigger safety
#3 Striker blocker
#4 Thumb Safety
#5 Magazine safety

...regardless the order in which they were implemented. (If anyone else following the thread and don't know the SR history...Ruger implemented the Trigger safety last).

Your ranking may be different, and that is what I'm agreeing to disagree about. Similar to user "werewolf" in believing the striker blocker is the "key" safety device or #1, but I rank it as #3 or even #4.

*Just to clarify...I consider "safeties", devices that prevents the discharge of a cartridge. So while a LCI is required in CA as a "safety" feature, I do not count that in my definition of a safety.
 

Cheesewhiz

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I've been reading this thread for amusement purposes only but I guess I feel the need to drop in.

John is a very knowledgeable guy when it comes to guns and one hell of a shooter. He also, evidently, has the patience of a saint.

edgalang, I'm not sure what "drop safety" you reference and hold in such high regard but this is the Ruger description of the semi-passive safeties on the SR series pistols:

"equipped with an internal striker blocker that prevents the striker from contacting the primer of a cartridge in the chamber until the trigger is pulled. An additional trigger safety blocks trigger bar
movement until the trigger is pulled. An internal trigger bar interlock prevents the trigger bar from moving down to release the striker until it is moved back by trigger movement."

I must point out that this "drop safety" didn't work so well until Ruger put the trigger (Glock style) safety on the gun as the gun failed further qualification drop tests and hence the safety recall.

I believe John was pointing out how these passive, semi-passive, semi-active safeties are more or less intertwined and not so much layered. Trying to peel the layers of these safeties away is an excercise in futility and will, in my opinion, rot your brain. :)
 

edgalang

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Cheesewhiz said:
I've been reading this thread for amusement purposes only but I guess I feel the need to drop in.

John is a very knowledgeable guy when it comes to guns and one hell of a shooter. He also, evidently, has the patience of a saint.

edgalang, I'm not sure what "drop safety" you reference and hold in such high regard...

The sear safety or "drop safety" is located at the back of the trigger bar. Often time this is confused with the "striker/firingpin safety". I agree, John is a VERY patient guy. We fundamentally share similar views, we're just debating the "details" most would probably not even care to discuss. Below is John's attempt to illustrate the difference.

JohnKSa said:
The firing pin safety is a completely different part.
SafetyRampPictures_small.jpg

Cheesewhiz said:
I believe John was pointing out how these passive, semi-passive, semi-active safeties are more or less intertwined and not so much layered. Trying to peel the layers of these safeties away is an excercise in futility and will, in my opinion, rot your brain. :)

I agree, they are somewhat intertwined. But I was debating that from an engineer's perspective, the mechanics of the entire system was designed in steps. Upper division mathematics can rot your brain as well, but some of us choose to do it anyways :?
 

eveled

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Back to the original questions, a striker fired pistol is perfectly safe to carry with no external safetys, just like a revolver is. However it is important IMHO to understand how they function. They are at a partial cocked state then when you pull the trigger it cocks the rest of the way then fires. If it doesn't fire it goes to an uncocked state. There is no double strike capability. If the mechanism fails and the gun is not in the half cocked state you won't know it until it doesn't fire. This is why I like striker fired guns to have a cocking indicator, so you know it is ready to go (or not).

I carry a Walther PPS in 9mm it is stirker fired. It has a cocking indicator, no safety lever, and is only 1in wide. I like it alot.

I also carry a sig sauer p250c in 45acp DAO in .45acp. It has a bobbed hammer, and no safety lever. Although it is completly different I like it alot also. It is like a big flat .45acp DAO revolver with night sights and 10 round capacity.

My other carry guns are all revolvers. I don't like manual safeties on carry guns. Ed
 

JohnKSa

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I was debating that from an engineer's perspective...
Ah! A fellow engineer!

Should have figured as much. :D
...without the drop safety or a chipped ejector, It is possible manipulate the trigger bar without having to engage the trigger safety...
That is true, however nothing in either of the two quoted statements claims otherwise.

The two statements are specifically about how the drop safety and firing pin safety depend on the trigger safety to hold the trigger bar immobile.

It is, of course, true that if you start removing safeties, that the interdependencies go away because it's impossible for the remaining safeties to interact with safeties that are no longer present.
As far as your "GUESS" as to why the SR9 existed without the trigger safety, the answer is irrelevant as it was a rhetorical question. The point I'm trying to hammer down is while it may be difficult for SOME to prioritize the safeties like you mentioned earlier, some form of ranking still exist and that example showed that Ruger obviously didn't think it was on the top of their list regardless if it was in error or not.
It was only a guess as I have no special insight into Ruger's design process and I emphasized "guess" so that no one could possibly mistake my speculation as a statement of fact.

That said, I don't believe that it's reasonable to assume that because Ruger seems to have initially felt that the trigger safety wasn't a critical part of the passive safety system in the SR series that Glock designers felt the same way.

In particular, the presence of a manual safety in the SR series may have been what prompted Ruger to initially attempt to avoid a trigger safety. Of course, the Glock system has no analog to the SR series manual safety.
If I had to rank the SR series safeties in terms of importance (we are on a Ruger forum afterall, and the Glock reference was mainly for the tutorial/animation and to convey how similar the Ruger SR models is to that.)
#1 drop safety (sear safety located at the back of the trigger bar)
#2 trigger safety
#3 Striker blocker
#4 Thumb Safety
#5 Magazine safety
Well, I can't argue definitively about the SR series intricacies because I haven't studied it to the same level as the Glock design, however, assuming a rough similarity between the SR series drop safety, firing pin safety and trigger safety and the Glock analogs, I think it's tough to rank the drop safety highest on the list.

Without the trigger safety, the trigger bar can move under impact (as from being dropped) thereby disengaging the drop safety. A drop safety that can be disengaged by being dropped is pretty much the definition of useless.
 

edgalang

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JohnKSa said:
Without the trigger safety, the trigger bar can move under impact (as from being dropped) thereby disengaging the drop safety. A drop safety that can be disengaged by being dropped is pretty much the definition of useless.

Similarly how a trigger safety can be bypassed without the sear safety. However if you implement a manual thumb safety, you have essentially locked the trigger bar into place (making that a safety to the safety as well).

The manual safety is to the trigger safety, as the striker safety is to the sear safety.
 

Cheesewhiz

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If the manual safety was employed during the drop tests, the original SR9 design would not have failed the few times that it did during it's secondary testing phase. That of course doesn't matter as the test is done with a chambered round and the safety in the fire position.
This failure in testing is what generated the safety recall for the SR9 and the addition of the trigger safety lever.
I was told a long time ago this further testing was done in order to qualify for California's approved handgun list.
Ruger had done quite a bit of drop testing prior to this and the pistol never failed but this later test requires several different drop angles and a higher set height along with a harder ground surface, it supposedly failed twice in the multiple drops in this extended testing.

My SR9 went through the safety recall.
 

JohnKSa

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The manual safety is to the trigger safety, as the striker safety is to the sear safety.
Not really. The manual safety, as you describe it (i.e. I am relying on your description since I have not analyzed the function of the SR series manual safety), performs exactly the same function as the trigger safety--namely holding the trigger bar immobile.

The striker safety, on the other hand is designed to prevent not only discharges due to droppage impact but also discharges due to malfunctions or internal damage/unauthorized modifications/breakage. It is reasonable to point out that part of its function is to act as a backup to the drop safety, but that is not ALL it does. It also performs functions that the drop safety can not perform.

Ruger had done quite a bit of drop testing prior to this and the pistol never failed but this later test requires several different drop angles and a higher set height along with a harder ground surface, it supposedly failed twice in the multiple drops in this extended testing.
That is precisely what I would expect from a system of this type that doesn't lock the trigger bar. If the trigger bar isn't locked, any impact/drop that imparts sufficient energy to move the trigger bar also deactivates the passive safeties in the process. Passive safeties that can be deactivated by something other than pressing the trigger are not very useful...
 

edgalang

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JohnKSa said:
It is reasonable to point out that part of its function is to act as a backup to the drop safety, but that is not ALL it does. It also performs functions that the drop safety can not perform.

Once you start claiming "malfunctions or internal damage/unauthorized modifications/breakage." then any/all examples/scenarios you can give is a moot point as this applies to the other safeties as well. Further discussion using this method is simply debating for the sake of debating.

As we keep going around in circles...to reliably operate the SR pistol, the striker safety is not needed as long as the drop safety AND trigger safety does NOT malfunction. The same thing cannot be said with the other 2 safeties.

Similarly one can also claim that the manual safety "performs functions that the trigger safety can not perform".

Please feel free to review the SR9 schematics so you no longer have to rely on end user descriptions.

JohnKSa said:
...Passive safeties that can be deactivated by something other than pressing the trigger are not very useful...

So by this, you obviously rank the Magazine safety as well as the manual thumb safety behind the standard 3 "Glock-like" safeties. Which goes back to my point that ranking/prioritizing of features/devices/safeties exist, regardless how difficult it may be for one to process.
 

JohnKSa

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Once you start claiming "malfunctions or internal damage/unauthorized modifications/breakage." then any/all examples/scenarios you can give is a moot point as this applies to the other safeties as well. Further discussion using this method is simply debating for the sake of debating.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.

It is not a matter of opinion that the firing pin safety can, and is intended to, prevent discharges from events that the drop safety can not prevent, it is a fact. A single example is sufficient to prove this, but I will provide more than one.

If the firing pin lug breaks, the trigger bar/sear can no longer prevent it the firing pin from moving forward even if the drop safety is fully functional. In that event, the firing pin safety can and will prevent the discharge.

If the trigger bar is damaged or modified so that sear engagement is insufficient, then the trigger bar can release the firing pin to move forward even if the drop safety is fully functional. In that event, the firing pin safety can and will prevent the discharge.

If the frame of the gun is damaged or warped, this can result in improper tolerances and interactions between the frame parts (trigger bar/sear) and the slide parts (firing pin) resulting in the firing pin not being properly engaged by the sear. In that case, the drop safety will have no effect but the firing pin safety can and will prevent the discharge.

If the slide separates from the frame (slide rail breakage or other catastrophic failure), the trigger bar/sear (and any other frame parts) will come out of engagement with the slide parts. In that case, the drop safety will have no effect even if it is fully functional, but the firing pin safety can and will prevent discharge.

Basically, the drop safety prevents the rear of the trigger bar from being manipulated downward (which will only be beneficial if sear engagement is correct and the sear and firing pin are relatively intact) while the firing pin safety actually blocks the front of the firing pin even if the slide is removed from the pistol.

In other words, not only does the firing pin safety prevent discharges the drop safety can not, it also works in a very different way--it directly blocks the firing pin from the front as opposed to merely restricting the horizontal motion of the rear of the trigger bar.

Since that is, without a doubt and beyond any reasonable debate a true statement, it is absolutely incorrect to state that the firing pin safety does nothing other than act as a backup to the drop safety. Clearly it does things that the drop safety can not do and therefore it is more than a backup to the drop safety.

As far as discussing "malfunctions or internal damage/unauthorized modifications/breakage" being moot, I don't understand how anyone could arrive at such a conclusion unless they were laboring under the misapprehension that such issues never occur or that they are not important to firearm designers. They certainly do occur and are most definitely a consideration in the design and testing of passive safeties.

Trying to avoid them in a discussion of the intended function and importance of firearm safety features makes no sense at all.

The only possible reason I can see for your attempting to exclude them from this discussion is that their existence and the design steps taken to neutralize them severely hamper your ability to defend several of your assertions. There is certainly no logical or realistic basis for their exclusion from the discussion.
Similarly one can also claim that the manual safety "performs functions that the trigger safety can not perform".
That may be correct, however, I was, as I explicitly stated, relying exclusively on your statement that the manual safety simply locked the trigger bar in place. If your statement is not correct, then it may be true that the manual safety performs functions that the trigger safety can not.
So by this, you obviously rank the Magazine safety as well as the manual thumb safety behind the standard 3 "Glock-like" safeties.
To be accurate, I simply hadn't considered magazine safeties at all. So far, I don't have any firearm applications that call for magazine safeties.

As far as the thumb safety goes, its value depends on the design of the rest of the system in conjunction with how the gun is to be carried. A properly designed passive safety system (like the one Glock employs) does not require a thumb safety unless the user chooses to carry the gun either unholstered, or in a holster that does not adequately protect the trigger. Then the thumb safety is important because the system is compromised (at least to some extent) by the failure to adequately prevent the trigger from being inadvertently operated.

The other consideration with a thumb safety (or any manual safety) is that its presence incurs a training penalty on the shooter. Because of the possibility of it's being inadvertently activated, it can not be ignored. The user must include the deactivation of the safety as part of the shooting drill to insure that it is always deactivated as a matter of course during the normal presentation of the pistol.
 

edgalang

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JohnKSa said:
As far as discussing "malfunctions or internal damage/unauthorized modifications/breakage" being moot, I don't understand how anyone could arrive at such a conclusion unless they were laboring under the misapprehension that such issues never occur or that they are not important to firearm designers. They certainly do occur and are most definitely a consideration in the design and testing of passive safeties.

Trying to avoid them in a discussion of the intended function and importance of firearm safety features makes no sense at all.

Once again once we factor in "malfunctions or internal damage/unauthorized modifications/breakage." then any/all examples/scenarios you can give is a moot point as this applies to the other safeties as well. Further discussion using this method is simply debating for the sake of debating. I can see where this is going. :roll:

JohnKSa said:
To be accurate, I simply hadn't considered magazine safeties at all. So far, I don't have any firearm applications that call for magazine safeties.

That is most likely because you don't live in CA or any other restricted state. Any new design must have this feature in order to be legally sold in those states that does not involve a PPT or a LEO. This is why the gen-4 Glocks are NOT on the CA roster because without a magazine safety, they are not considered "safe" by CA legislature. Older models will be grand fathered in (similar to how classic cars without airbags or seat belts are still able to legally operate), but in time, unless Glock changes their design, Glocks will no longer be able to be sold to the general public within the state of CA.

If you hadn't considered magazine safeties at all, then how can you possibly rank them above the "glock-like" safeties you so adamantly defend?! This is another rhetorical question, but by default this should be on the bottom of your list until you can decide later on (meaning of the 5 safeties presented on the Ruger SR series, this is your #5).

To be honest, with the banter going back and forth I've lost the original intention of some of your posts. Everything that has been discussed shouldn't have been anything new to the seasoned SR owner, including how the "glock-like" safety intricacies work (a topic that to my opinion been beaten to death). However my point was not to argue those in detail, but to convey that everything, even within the "glock-like" safeties, were designed methodically in steps, and that to claim that there is no order or priority to the overall design of a pistol is unreasonable.
 

JohnKSa

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Once again once we factor in "malfunctions or internal damage/unauthorized modifications/breakage." then any/all examples/scenarios you can give is a moot point as this applies to the other safeties as well.
I still don't understand what you mean by this.

It is true that safeties are designed to guard against the following possibilities:
1. Drops & impacts.
2. Breakage/Malfunctions/Damage.
3. Inadvertent actions by the user.

It is not possible to have a coherent discussion about the importance of safeties if one arbitrarily eliminates one or more of the categories from the discussion.

Far from being moot, understanding all three categories of mishap that safeties are intended to prevent is critical to the proper understanding of how safeties work, and how they are intended to work.
If you hadn't considered magazine safeties at all, then how can you possibly rank them above the "glock-like" safeties you so adamantly defend?!
I don't understand how my statement that I hadn't considered them at all could possibly be interpeted to mean that I ranked them in some manner.

To be absolutely and perfectly clear on the matter, I have not ranked magazine safeties at all in this thread. Nothing I have posted on this thread should be construed to state, assert, claim, imply or otherwise suggest in any way how magazine safeties should be ranked in comparison to other safeties discussed on this thread.
To be honest, with the banter going back and forth I've lost the original intention of some of your posts.
Which parts are you having difficulty with? I can recap if you'll point me in the right direction.
However my point was not to argue those in detail, but to convey that everything, ... were designed methodically in steps...
Even if one accepts that they were designed methodically and in steps, that provides, at best, very weak support for the assertion that in a particular system they were designed in an order that automatically ranks them in order of importance in that system.

It certainly does not prove, nor does it even strongly imply that the order that they are designed in one system automatically ranks them in order of importance in any system containing similar elements.
 

Nerd_Ferguson

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Andy H said:
Clovishound said:
I would advise you to look at the track record of the Glocks. They have a reputation for unintentional discharges. I will only carry a striker fired weapon that has a manual safety. IMO the striker trigger has a long enough pull to make them safe enough for the range, but not for carry.

I'm with you. Call me crazy, but I can envision too many situations where the trigger on a loaded pistol could get caught and pulled in some weird situation. I'm used to a manual safety as gives an added measure of protection.

Do not make the mistake of thinking the trigger pull (both weight and length) on all striker fired pistols are the same. For me trigger pull is factor #1 in determining if a pistol should have an external safety. Example: Ruger SR9c has a very short fairly light trigger pull. I am thankful for the thumb safety. Meanwhile, the Beretta Nano is striker fired but has a long heavy trigger by design. No external safeties, but I would have no hesitation to carry one.
 

cluznar

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A good striker-fire semi is awesome, no long trigger pull on the first shot. All shots are the exact same with trigger pull. The SR9c is one of the nicest striker-fire pistols I have ever owned.
 

edgalang

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JohnKSa said:
I still don't understand what you mean by this.

If you do not understand my point I am fine with that as well. Not eveveryone can be informed, nor am I seeking any validation.

More than once you have dismissed the Sear safety over the striker in the event of...
"the firing pin lug breaks".
or...
"If the trigger bar is damaged or modified so that sear engagement is insufficient,"
or...
"If the frame of the gun is damaged or warped, this can result in improper tolerances and interactions between the frame parts (trigger bar/sear) and the slide parts (firing pin) resulting in the firing pin not being properly engaged by the sear."

All valid points...But one can also add...

What if the primers are ignited by static electricity bypassing all other safeties incliuding the striker blocker?
or...
What if the pin holding the trigger to the trigger bar breaks, crumbles, fall out etc rendering the trigger safety useless (thank god for the manual thumb safety that you previously dismissed).
or...
What if the channel that was cut into the striker sheers off or wears beyond the point of stoppage where the striker blocker no longer makes contact?
or...
What if the loaded firearm was dipped in molten lava?

My argument about once we start factoring in "malfunctions or internal damage/unauthorized modifications/breakage" OR in this case, ANY ACTS OF GOD, then possibilities become endless, and further arguments become moot.


JohnKSa said:
I don't understand how my statement that I hadn't considered them at all could possibly be interpeted to mean that I ranked them in some manner.

Again this was a rhetorical question. You have dismissed the magazine safety before, but let's cut to the chase. Of the 5 safeties in a Ruger SR pistol, where would you rank it? (or would you dodge this question as well :roll: )

JohnKSa said:
Which parts are you having difficulty with? I can recap if you'll point me in the right direction.
Not to be rude but I've already covered this in the previous post, in that everything that we have discussed most likely have had little to zero informational benefit to either one of us (certainly not me).

JohnKSa said:
It certainly does not prove, nor does it even strongly imply that the order that they are designed in one system automatically ranks them in order of importance in any system containing similar elements.

Again this was already covered in a previous post. To what order obviously varies from one design to another. The examples given was to convey that a priority order exists (to counter your implication that it does not).

I am however beginning to think you do not really have an opinion on the matter.

edgalang said:
If I had to rank the SR series safeties in terms of importance (we are on a Ruger forum afterall, and the Glock reference was mainly for the tutorial/animation and to convey how similar the Ruger SR models is to that.)
#1 drop safety (sear safety located at the back of the trigger bar)
#2 trigger safety
#3 Striker blocker
#4 Thumb Safety
#5 Magazine safety

...regardless the order in which they were implemented. (If anyone else following the thread and don't know the SR history...Ruger implemented the Trigger safety last).
 

JohnKSa

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What if the primers are ignited by static electricity bypassing all other safeties incliuding the striker blocker?
or...
What if the pin holding the trigger to the trigger bar breaks, crumbles, fall out etc rendering the trigger safety useless (thank god for the manual thumb safety that you previously dismissed).
or...
What if the channel that was cut into the striker sheers off or wears beyond the point of stoppage where the striker blocker no longer makes contact?
or...
What if the loaded firearm was dipped in molten lava?
It is true that "What if"s can be taken to extremes, as with the examples you provide, however, the examples I provided were not in the least unrealistic. All of them were based on issues, occurrences and problems that are actually valid concerns for a good firearm designer.
My argument about once we start factoring in "malfunctions or internal damage/unauthorized modifications/breakage" OR in this case, ANY ACTS OF GOD, then possibilities become endless, and further arguments become moot.
While it is certainly the case that every safety has limitations and there is no way to completely prevent unintentional discharges with a safety, it is also completely inaccurate to state or even imply that safeties aren't designed to mitigate the effects of damage, malfunctions, unauthorized modifications or breakage.

If you honestly believe that the issues of internal damage/unauthorized modifications/breakage are even remotely analogous to the possibility of a gun being "dipped in molten lava", then it is not at all surprising that you don't agree with the statements I have made on this thread.
Of the 5 safeties in a Ruger SR pistol, where would you rank it?
Just when I think I understand where you're coming from you throw a curve like this one.

Given my statements on this thread about the value of ranking safeties (some are listed below for review), how is it that you think it makes sense to ask me about how I would rank various safeties?

The safeties are hard to rank because, to some extent, they all work together.

I wasn't arguing that one of the other safeties was more important than the trigger safety, I was pointing out that the safeties all work together and therefore, in my opinion, it doesn't make sense to try to rank them in order of importance.

The point is that if you examine interdependent components of a single, integrated system and try to rank them in importance it can lead to absurdities.


At this point it is clear that:

1.) You are either not comprehending or ignoring important content in my posts in spite of the fact that I have made a significant effort to attempt to state and clarify my position as well as to provide in-depth explanations to support it.

2.) You are laboring under a serious misapprehension regarding the real-world problems (beyond drop/impact safety) that firearm designers design safeties to prevent. This, in combination with 1.) makes it clear that there is nothing practical I can do to lift that misapprehension.

Given the obvious impasse, it seems pointless for me to expend further effort.

Best,

John
 
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