"Cowboy loads................"

[Bob Wright]

On the Single Action page on Facebook I got into a discussion with another gunny regarding "Cowboy Loads." His comment was that today's cowboy loads replicate the reduced loads of the original blackpowder cartridges, hence were used by "cowboys" of yore.

Not so, I countered. Those old blackpowder cartridges were far from "reduced." The original .45 Colt load pushed a 250~255 gr. bullet at close to 900 f.p.s. and were stout enough to do the job at hand, be it putting down cow, horse, or man. There was no intent at the time to reduce velocity or recoil. Modern "cowboy loads" are loaded down for range safety and to permit milder recoil for rapidity of firing in cowboy matches.

Bob Wright

 

[blume357]

I'm by no means an expert, and even though I belonged to the Cowboy Action Shooting society for a while, I never participated... I suspect you are right.... they probably packed as much black powder in their cartridges as possible...

 

[loaded round]

Mr. Wright nailed it! He knows what he's talking about.

 

[Rook]

Either way they hurt. The first time I attended a SASS shooting match I walked up near the line to get ready to shoot and got hit in the leg with a .45 Colt bullet that had ricocheted off of a steel target. I did a little dance and hopped around on one foot for a few seconds. It didn't break the skin but it did leave a bruise.

After that I made sure I wore my safety glasses from the time I arrived until I left the matches.

 

[blackhawknj]

Yes, those old black powder loads were loaded to the max, IIRC when reloading 45-70 the powder should be slightly compressed. Hard to get an overload or a double load when the case is filled to capacity.

 

[Bob Wright]

Either way they hurt. The first time I attended a SASS shooting match I walked up near the line to get ready to shoot and got hit in the leg with a .45 Colt bullet that had ricocheted off of a steel target. I did a little dance and hopped around on one foot for a few seconds. It didn't break the skin but it did leave a bruise.

After that I made sure I wore my safety glasses from the time I arrived until I left the matches.

That makes a good case for batwing chaps! Unless you're facing the wrong way.


Bob Wright

 

[redhawker]

I'm thinking that the original black powder loads were almost or just as hot (fps wise) as modern smokeless powder loads. It was probably the different burn rate of the black powder that kept the pressures lower. Smokeless only eliminated the extra cleaning and, of course, the smoke that went along with black powder.

 

[DeletedMember275]

IIRC, the U.S. Army specified that the .45 Colt ammo had to be able to shoot through a horse at a specified distance, presumably to kill the Native American who was hiding behind said horse. Try that with a modern 'cowboy load!'

 

[TRanger]

Noted sixgun authority, Mike Venturino, has conducted and published tests demonstrating the old original black powder .45 Colt loads were MORE powerful than the subsequent smokeless versions; propelling a 250 grain bullet up to 1000 FPS in a cavalry Colt. I suspect the same holds true for the .44/40, .38/40, and most other frontier loads.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

On the Single Action page on Facebook I got into a discussion with another gunny regarding "Cowboy Loads." His comment was that today's cowboy loads replicate the reduced loads of the original blackpowder cartridges, hence were used by "cowboys" of yore.

Not so, I countered. Those old blackpowder cartridges were far from "reduced." The original .45 Colt load pushed a 250~255 gr. bullet at close to 900 f.p.s. and were stout enough to do the job at hand, be it putting down cow, horse, or man. There was no intent at the time to reduce velocity or recoil. Modern "cowboy loads" are loaded down for range safety and to permit milder recoil for rapidity of firing in cowboy matches.

Bob Wright

I agree, Bob. For what it's worth, I never heard or read the term "cowboy loads" prior to the advent of the "Cowboy Shooting" activities.

 

[Wyandot Jim]

I have shot quite a few BP 45 Colt loads in Vaqueros and Old Armys with conversion cylinders loaded with a 250 gr. and a full case of 3f Goex at SASS matches. It makes for a right smart load. Also a lot of fun to shoot at a night shoot. Sorry to say that Roy and the boys would not be able to shoot the way they did in the movies with them. It is a good thing they shot 5 in 1 blanks.
Bob is correct none of the loads were down loaded. The 45-70 did go from a reduced power loading was adopted for use in the Trapdoor carbine. This had a 55 grain powder charge. for the Calvary so it could be used in the Trapdoor Carbine without so much recoil as 70 gr..

 

[daveg.inkc]

Page 16 of Jerry Kuhnhausen’s book, “Ruger SA Revolvers”, list 28 grs of BP. “Ordnance load”. 40 grs Commercial load. 40 grs is not a reduced load. Bob is right. 900 fps

 

[David Bradshaw]

I'm thinking that the original black powder loads were almost or just as hot (fps wise) as modern smokeless powder loads. It was probably the different burn rate of the black powder that kept the pressures lower. Smokeless only eliminated the extra cleaning and, of course, the smoke that went along with black powder.

*****

Redhawker.... black powder produces much less energy the smokeless. Black powder is a low order explosive----very low order. Black powder can explode in open air, its decomposition from solid to gas rather instantaneous. Smokeless powder burns and is a propellant; it does not detonate. The distinction is less important than what happens when black and smokeless powders decompose from solid to gas: smokeless expands to a much greater volume.

Black powder can blow up guns, as Sam Colt found out with his 1847 Walker. In fact, it amazes me how well some of the old iron held up. Numerous black powder cannons reportedly blew up when the iron (or bronze?) casting let go.
David Bradshaw

 

[shootinfule]

When I was a teenager I would clear a pond for ice skating so my girlfriend and I could skate for free. The movie (1966 version) Stagecoach was filmed nearby on the Caribou Ranch outside Nederland, CO. One day one of the hands stopped by to show us what he had found: a case of bottleneck "cartridges" with a wad in the neck that said 5-in-1. Reading Wyandot Jim's post made me remember that I've always wondered how they that did that. If you know, please let me know.
Thanks.

 

[blackhawknj]

That's why they established proof houses. And why we have SAAMI today and the idea of maximum loads.
In the April 1876 uprising the Bulgarians tried using cannons made from cherry trees. Didn't work very well.

 

[coach]

Did making cannons from any kind of tree ever go well? :shock:

 

[blackhawknj]

"Experience is a dear school, but a fool won't learn in any other." Ben Franklin
Thomas Edison answered one of his assistants who said "Mr. Edison, we've tried this and this and that..." by saying "Yes, we know 1,000 things that DON'T work !"

 

[Bob Wright]

When I was a teenager I would clear a pond for ice skating so my girlfriend and I could skate for free. The movie (1966 version) Stagecoach was filmed nearby on the Caribou Ranch outside Nederland, CO. One day one of the hands stopped by to show us what he had found: a case of bottleneck "cartridges" with a wad in the neck that said 5-in-1. Reading Wyandot Jim's post made me remember that I've always wondered how they that did that. If you know, please let me know.
Thanks.

The term "Five-in-One" blanks refers to the five different guns it could be used in: (1) .45 Colt revolvers (2).44-40 Revolvers (3) .38-40 Revolvers (4) .44-40 Winchesters, and (5) .38-40 Winchesters. Each of these cartridges had approximately the same head diameter, and tapered at the neck/mouth enough to chamber in the .38-40 chamber.

(Sorry for coming across as a "know-it-all.")

BobWright

 

[shootinfule]

Bob -
Thanks for the explanation. Never thought you came across a "know it all." I had thought that TV cowboys could fire them 5 times as long as they didn't eject the case, since they seem to have lots of shots before reloading.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

"5-in-1" blanks . . .

https://truewestmagazine.com/hollywoods-5-in-1-movie-blank/

https://www.westernstageprops.com/5-in-1-Brass-Blank-Ammunition-p/sa13b.htm