Collectible Revolver ?

[Retread]

I need to get some idea of the collectible value of a Fred Schmidt Short Cylinder PPC gun that I had Fred build for me on an L-Frame 686 in the mid 80s. Out of town shooters are coming into our small town for a match this week end and one of them said a couple of months back that he's been buying PPC guns and would be interested in the Schmidt Short Cylinder.

I used the gun in the 1986 Steel Challenge and it's been sitting since that time. Lots of HBWC rounds through it, roughed up and scuffed in a few places, but a sound gun. Never shot PPC with it although it was amazingly accurate. As a used Combat-style PPC-like gun I don't think it's value is very high. But, it was one of the last short cylinder guns Fred Schmidt made and I'm wondering where I might find someone who knows something about the value of a unique gun like this ???

 

[contender]

I wish I could help,,, but most of us here are more familiar with Rugers. Maybe one of our esteemed members here does have the info you seek. Good luck!

 

[rugerguy]

Basically, any of such "custom" guns is the total of the value of the sum,of the parts, base gun, in your case a
686 stainless L frame S&W then whatever the 'smith' (customiser) did, barrel swap?? say a Douglas barrel. then any rib on top, such as a Bomar ?? all in all YOU know what the total price you have into the gun and work, and NO pricing ,such as a 'blue book' can configure this as their prices are based on base, original gun.....
I know from over the years the work we did in our shop, as well as others, can get up there, as you then have to add in the time ,machining, set up ,fit and finish...Last couple of 'Clark' guns we had sold for other shooters, went in the $750-800 range, you want a 'Clark' PPC gun built? visit their site and they start around $1200....one NEVER gets the 'return" ( their money back ) or out of such an endeavor, not everyone wants whitewall tires or stereos, or continental bumper kits on their cars, so its worth what someone is willing to pay or offer...custom PPC or any such get up ,usually means LOTS of rounds through them, wear and tear, thus the drop in value ( price) your 686 would NOT be that hard of a gun to return to "stock" and has more interest or value, than say an M&P (model 10)
Sounds like a nice gun, and bet it shoots VERY accurately,,, tough to 'wear out" with hollow base wadcutter ammo, and being stainless, can and will "clean up" quite nicely. Good luck, see just what this guy may offer you, if thats what he does ,is buy "PPC", he should have some idea of just what goes into their creation.

 

[Retread]

Thanks for the valuable input.

I had about $850 into the gun when it was returned to me. It is worn, but not worn out by any means. My main concern is to find out whether Fred's skills and his short cylinder design makes the gun valuable to collectors - who might pay a slightly higher price. Not looking to make my money back, necessarily. I just don't want to give the gun away. When guys like us buy guns, we like to get a deal and I hope, if a transaction happens, not to be on the short end. Just wondering what's fair - if there is collectors value.

(I've heard a very knowledgeable collector some years ago say that Hoag and Liebenberg customized guns were then worth more than their accumulated cost as soon as they left their shops because collectors recognized extraordinary workmanship. Not expecting that here, of course).

Couple of corrections: It's a blue 586, not stainless - my whiskers are showing. Fwiw, I've probably put 20,000 - 25,000 G. Berry HBWC bullets, using 3.4 - 3.6 of 231 in new Federal 357 cases, through the gun. Being an L-Frame, the short cylinder still left a gap within the cylinder with 38 cases and the accuracy dropped a bit. With those loads and 357 cases it was a tack driver. My last six practice shots before the 1986 Challenge, prone without sand bags, formed a beautiful 3/4" group, exactly in the middle of my make shift 1" square black target center (which I still have).

The gun has whatever custom barrel Fred used at the time, but with the original Smith sights and Fred's scope rail. I have his underlug, as well. I was using a Burris Bulls eye scope at the time - with the vert and horiz lines forming an X rather than a cross - made adjusting the sight a challenge, but less confusing to use in speed shooting.

Handgun Forum has been mentioned. I'll try it this afternoon. My goals are modest, but information would help. Any other forums anyone can think of?

Thanks

 

[rugerguy]

don;t know of Fred Schmidt personally, and over the past 50 plus years "in the business" I have shot with ,worked with and know most of the big names that were and are out there,many with great reputations as both ( first) shooters, then builders, way too many to even think about BUT, for the most part, I cannot think of any of them that by that person building the gun, (unless it was himself, and not just his shop) I can put no more value on a 'well used" model, they are what they are and as I noted, worth the sum of the total of the parts....off hand the exception would have to be a Bob Shea built High Standard 10-X gun (Bob was one of MY mentors, I trained under him back in the early 70's)..............now if you would have ANY of the big name guys guns, new, unfired, maybe in a presentation type format, then you can ask a premium....................
still the basis ( chassis/platform) of YOUR gun is still a good one, any of the L frames are very good ones,but yes, in the case of the blued finish, would add to the cost of a rebuild/refinish....like everything else in the gun world, condition is everything ,even for the famous versions. :wink:

 

[Retread]

Thanks, Rugerguy.

Fred Schmidt's was a one man shop. He built about 250 short cylinder revolvers, most for PPC, I think. Mine was one of the last. Another smith much earlier made similar cylinders. Don't know if that guy trained Fred Schmidt or not. The idea was that HBWC bullets would never be unstable between the case mouth and the barrel forcing cone so the bullet wouldn't be deformed at all. It was still being supported in the case as it entered the bbl forcing cone. This was supposed to aid accuracy and reduce leading in the barrel. My gun is exceptionally accurate and I was able to shoot several times as many rounds before there was any lead build up in the barrel.

Good common sense information. Thanks

 

[Terry T]

"Retread",

"I used the gun in the 1986 Steel Challenge and it's been sitting since that time."

I have a related question for you: I am in possession of a trophy gun from the 1986 Steel Challenge, a then just released GP-100. I was told that Ruger donated this gun as a prize. It is engraved : "1st Place Men's Team vis Team 1986 steel challenge"



(Please excuse the blurry photo - point and shoot camera).





The ser. no. is 170-00411, a very early gun.

I would like to know who, which shooter, won this prize.

I've been unable to find any prize listing from that match. Since you were there as a competitor, perhaps you remember or have some documentation of the match results.
By the way, Ruger records was of no help. Apparently the computer file had no special notations about this piece.
Thanking you in advance,
Terry T

 

[Retread]

I can only be of a sort of general help. The main match was shot over several days then. And, as now, the man vs man or team vs team shoot off was held the day after. I didn't go to the shoot offs that year, instead, staying in my own area shooting a local PPC match.

The 1986 Steel Challenge was held at Raahauge's Shooting Ranges in Orange County, CA. As I recall, John Shaw won the main match and then retired. The 1984 Steel Challenge team vs team shoot offs at Sand Canyon, CA, were 4 against 4, I believe. They are generally 2 vs 2 now. 1986 could have been either format.

It's not surprising that Ruger has no record of the gun's owner. I think the Steel Challenge organization would have received the gun from Ruger and handled the California registration themselves.

The original Steel Challenge people still have ranges at Piru, CA, and shoot matches there. Mike Dalton ran those matches for several decades and would have records, though maybe he would even recall the team victors. The ISI Team, of which he was a part, may have won the team event (if the event was organized around registered teams instead of selections of teams according to recent finish in the main match). Mike's not easily reached, though the Piru Steel Challenge Association probably is. With patience you might find out through them by asking if Mike can (eventually) be contacted to see if he knows the answer to your question.

In those days, the Steel Challenge and other national combat championships were filmed by Lenny Magill (Productions?) in San Diego. So, there was a tape of that year's Challenge that would include the team vs team event which was always the most photogenic event, and still is.

I think Raahague's Ranges are still functioning. 1986 was the first year the Challenge was shot there. It's remotely possible someone there might be able to find out? I don't think another Challenge was shot at Raahague's, so it might be easy for someone there to find out that match's results

Hope this helps. Sorry I can't come up with more.