Can We Make A 30-30 out of 308 ???
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Tellico
Buckeye
Lamplighter,
308 Winchester - 150 grain Speer RN bullet, 25.0 grains of SR 4759 powder, CCI 200 primer, IMI case. COL 2.490". MV 1925 fps in 22" barrel. (Based on the Speer Reloading Manual No. 13.)
Chuck Hawks and several others have articles about reduced loads in the 308. Google "managed recoil loads for .308". Both Federal and Remington make managed recoil loads for the 308 also. If you want to try lead with Trail Boss for short range that is also an option.
Fred
308 Winchester - 150 grain Speer RN bullet, 25.0 grains of SR 4759 powder, CCI 200 primer, IMI case. COL 2.490". MV 1925 fps in 22" barrel. (Based on the Speer Reloading Manual No. 13.)
Chuck Hawks and several others have articles about reduced loads in the 308. Google "managed recoil loads for .308". Both Federal and Remington make managed recoil loads for the 308 also. If you want to try lead with Trail Boss for short range that is also an option.
Fred
5of7
Hunter
Sure you can.
Use a faster burning rate powder than you would normally use in the .308 to prevent pressure spikes due to low pressure loads with the slower powders.
The Lyman no.47 manual shows cast bullet data with 4198 and the 169 gr. cast bullet.
24 grains gave up 1897 FPS and developed 22,700 PSI.
30.5 grains gave up 2341 fps and developed 48,200 PSI.
You would want to drop down about 2 grains when using a jacketed bullet. I would bet that 29 grs of 4198 would produce about 2200 fps with the 170 grain jacketed FP bullet.
This is a good time to buy a chronograph if you don't already have one. They are invaluable when assembling loads absent a published specific recipe .......... 8)
Use a faster burning rate powder than you would normally use in the .308 to prevent pressure spikes due to low pressure loads with the slower powders.
The Lyman no.47 manual shows cast bullet data with 4198 and the 169 gr. cast bullet.
24 grains gave up 1897 FPS and developed 22,700 PSI.
30.5 grains gave up 2341 fps and developed 48,200 PSI.
You would want to drop down about 2 grains when using a jacketed bullet. I would bet that 29 grs of 4198 would produce about 2200 fps with the 170 grain jacketed FP bullet.
This is a good time to buy a chronograph if you don't already have one. They are invaluable when assembling loads absent a published specific recipe .......... 8)
Jimbo357mag
Hawkeye
H-4895 is another powder that is used for reduced rifle loads. There is a section on reduced recoil loads using light for caliber bullets and there is this note about reduced loads for heavy and lead bullets. They say to take the max load of H-4895 and reduce by up to 40% for velocities between 1500 and 2100 fps.
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduced%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduced%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf
Rick Courtright
Hawkeye
Hi,
Lessee if I read this right: you want .30-30 ballistics, it's just that the rifle's chambered for .308? Shouldn't be too hard: if you like lead, I've used some of those light loads from the Lyman book already mentioned that worked fairly well. The ones I've loaded were for plinking, the "pop gun" variety.
However, it's quite likely they're not quite fast enough for your needs, so Mr. Lee also has a "formula" for converting faster jacketed loads to slower cast loads. I know it's in the 1st Ed. of his "Modern Reloading" and should be in the 2nd one, too. I've used it to download some .30-06. .30-30 and .303 British cast ammo w/ good success.
And while I didn't study the Hodgdon's "reduced recoil" section all that carefully, it would APPEAR some work w/ H4895 might do the trick for you. I'll have to go back and look, but I thought I saw a few recipes w/ "popular" bullet weights when I first became aware of that data. Not gonna swear on it, though.
Whatever you do, use the chronograph a lot! Do you have a favorite .30-30 load and gun combo you can use to establish a baseline, perhaps not even yours but a buddy's rifle and ammo he's been successful with? Once you've got that, you know what you're working toward in real life. Expanding on 5 of 7's advice, it's an invaluable tool even WITH book data--IME field data and lab data can range from almost identical to "Are we really talking about the same cartridge?" stuff.
Should be a fun bit of experimentation, and hopefully, it will reward you well in the field, too!
Rick C
Lessee if I read this right: you want .30-30 ballistics, it's just that the rifle's chambered for .308? Shouldn't be too hard: if you like lead, I've used some of those light loads from the Lyman book already mentioned that worked fairly well. The ones I've loaded were for plinking, the "pop gun" variety.
However, it's quite likely they're not quite fast enough for your needs, so Mr. Lee also has a "formula" for converting faster jacketed loads to slower cast loads. I know it's in the 1st Ed. of his "Modern Reloading" and should be in the 2nd one, too. I've used it to download some .30-06. .30-30 and .303 British cast ammo w/ good success.
And while I didn't study the Hodgdon's "reduced recoil" section all that carefully, it would APPEAR some work w/ H4895 might do the trick for you. I'll have to go back and look, but I thought I saw a few recipes w/ "popular" bullet weights when I first became aware of that data. Not gonna swear on it, though.
Whatever you do, use the chronograph a lot! Do you have a favorite .30-30 load and gun combo you can use to establish a baseline, perhaps not even yours but a buddy's rifle and ammo he's been successful with? Once you've got that, you know what you're working toward in real life. Expanding on 5 of 7's advice, it's an invaluable tool even WITH book data--IME field data and lab data can range from almost identical to "Are we really talking about the same cartridge?" stuff.
Should be a fun bit of experimentation, and hopefully, it will reward you well in the field, too!
Rick C
5of7
Hunter
Kanook said:
Also Remington chambered the 788 in 30/30. I had one and sold it. Shoulda had my ass kicked for that! :(
By the way, there are a ton of savage bolt action 30/30s on gunbroker right now.
.308 will kill deer at short range,too. I can see using a starting load but not feeling the need to go all the way down to 30/30 equivalent. I also don't see the need to accept the restrictions of a round or flat nosed 30/30 bullet. A fairly quick opening pointed or tipped bullet would do as well w/o the miserable ballistics of a round/flat nose.
Paul B
Hunter
My choice of powder would be either IMR or H4895. I have one load with a 150 gr. Winchester Power point I make for my wife to use at the range that is accurate in her Ruger 77 RSI in .308. I have no clue as to the velocity as I've never bothered to run it over the Chrony. The load is 25.0 gr. of 4895. You'll probably have to go up a grain or two to reach full 30-30 velocity but 25.0 gr. would b a safe start for 150, 165, 170 or 180 gr. bullets. I use that same charge with a 180 gr. cast bullet in a different .308 rifle and groups run as small as 1.5 MOA at 200 yards when I do my part.
Paul B.
Paul B.
Rick Courtright
Hawkeye
Hi, Lamplighter
Just out of curiosity, I grabbed Lee's 1st Ed. "Modern Reloading" to see what recipes it had for both the .30-30 and .308. As most of you know, Lee does NOT develop the loads they publish: they're mainly reprints from data the powder mfrs provide.
Anyway, they show 150 gr loads in the .30-30 ranging from a touch over 1800 fps to right about 2400 fps. So I went to the .308 pages to see what kinds of overlap might exist. There are a few loads shown in the 2200-2400 fps range using 150s. Powders mentioned include IMR4350, SR4759, IMR4831, IMR4227, and Hercules 2400.
I won't post the recipes, because this data is now getting long in the tooth. Plus there's considerable discussion about what today's 4227 really is since Hodgdon's took over distribution and made some changes, as well as whether Alliant's 2400 is truly identical to the Hercules product.
But maybe this adds another starting point, so I'll leave you on your own to look to see if you can find anything current w/ any of those powders? Good luck!
Rick C
Just out of curiosity, I grabbed Lee's 1st Ed. "Modern Reloading" to see what recipes it had for both the .30-30 and .308. As most of you know, Lee does NOT develop the loads they publish: they're mainly reprints from data the powder mfrs provide.
Anyway, they show 150 gr loads in the .30-30 ranging from a touch over 1800 fps to right about 2400 fps. So I went to the .308 pages to see what kinds of overlap might exist. There are a few loads shown in the 2200-2400 fps range using 150s. Powders mentioned include IMR4350, SR4759, IMR4831, IMR4227, and Hercules 2400.
I won't post the recipes, because this data is now getting long in the tooth. Plus there's considerable discussion about what today's 4227 really is since Hodgdon's took over distribution and made some changes, as well as whether Alliant's 2400 is truly identical to the Hercules product.
But maybe this adds another starting point, so I'll leave you on your own to look to see if you can find anything current w/ any of those powders? Good luck!
Rick C
Jimbo357mag
Hawkeye
All you have to do is use the 60% formula for any bullet weight in .308 Win.Lamplighter said:
for example; 180 GR. SPR SP - H4895 - 42.5gr max.
.60 x 42.5 = 25.5gr
25.5gr is Min load of H4895 for 180gr bullet in .308 Win.
expect velocity between 1500 - 2100fps.
I've got one that I'm trying to do just that with. I thought I had found the perfect formula for the semi auto till I started shooting with a full magazine. I had been testing these bullets by manually inserting them into the chamber.
I stopped testing a few months ago till I could find more powder to confirm my suspicions. Here's where I'm at so far.
The factory 150gr PSP Core-Lokt's have a stated velocity of 2820fps. In my 18 1/2" carbine they are coming out at an average of 2630fps and grouping about 1 1/2" at 100 yards.
The same 150gr PSP Core-Lokt being pushed with 45.0gr of BLC-2 produces a velocity of 2465fps and has a 3/4" group at the same range.
I'm also doing a 150gr RN Core-Lokt with the same powder/charge and it's producing the same velocity/group.
Each of these three bullets/loads are grouping at a different location on the paper. I can't remember exactly but it was something like lets say the factory bullet shot center, the RN was 1 1/2" high 3" left and the PSP was 1 1/2" low and center.
I'm doing the OAL of the RN at 2.640" which coincidentally requires no adjustment from the RCBS die when swapping fron PSP to RN. It does look silly with the cannelure being so far out from the brass.
After arriving at a good load/grouping and rezeroing I figured I'd just blast some full magazines before deer season. I got an occasional jam with the PSP's and then with the RN's. Swapped to the factory stuff, no jams. Swapped back to the RN or PSP the jams returned.
My rationalization is the powder charge rate is the problem. I'm looking at increasing it to 48.0gr and see if the problem goes away.
From what I remember some semi auto's also had a problem with certain powder types. Seemed like this had been widely discussed in a M14 forum and BLC-2 was acceptable for this purpose.
Oh, found the powder a couple of weeks ago, just gotta load some more and see.
I stopped testing a few months ago till I could find more powder to confirm my suspicions. Here's where I'm at so far.
The factory 150gr PSP Core-Lokt's have a stated velocity of 2820fps. In my 18 1/2" carbine they are coming out at an average of 2630fps and grouping about 1 1/2" at 100 yards.
The same 150gr PSP Core-Lokt being pushed with 45.0gr of BLC-2 produces a velocity of 2465fps and has a 3/4" group at the same range.
I'm also doing a 150gr RN Core-Lokt with the same powder/charge and it's producing the same velocity/group.
Each of these three bullets/loads are grouping at a different location on the paper. I can't remember exactly but it was something like lets say the factory bullet shot center, the RN was 1 1/2" high 3" left and the PSP was 1 1/2" low and center.
I'm doing the OAL of the RN at 2.640" which coincidentally requires no adjustment from the RCBS die when swapping fron PSP to RN. It does look silly with the cannelure being so far out from the brass.
After arriving at a good load/grouping and rezeroing I figured I'd just blast some full magazines before deer season. I got an occasional jam with the PSP's and then with the RN's. Swapped to the factory stuff, no jams. Swapped back to the RN or PSP the jams returned.
My rationalization is the powder charge rate is the problem. I'm looking at increasing it to 48.0gr and see if the problem goes away.
From what I remember some semi auto's also had a problem with certain powder types. Seemed like this had been widely discussed in a M14 forum and BLC-2 was acceptable for this purpose.
Oh, found the powder a couple of weeks ago, just gotta load some more and see.
Found the picture of them. Top RN, middle PSP, bottom factory.
Published max OAL 2.810".
The factory bullets OAL were at 2.710".
From what I remember the PSP and RN ogive were barely off the rifling at 2.790" and 2.640" OAL respectively.
Published max OAL 2.810".
The factory bullets OAL were at 2.710".
From what I remember the PSP and RN ogive were barely off the rifling at 2.790" and 2.640" OAL respectively.
Jimbo357mag
Hawkeye
I had the same problem when I tried loading Blue Dot for my Deerfield carbine. It just would not work. When loading for a semi-auto you have to use a suitable powder. Then you have to increase the powder charge until you get reliable action without going over the Max. After you establish the Min. and Max. charge for the gun then you can fine tune the charge for accuracy.
