Accuracy question.

[Tellico]

Question for the knowlege pool here. I just got back from load testing with my 5 1/2 new model BH. This is the best of forty + loads with 5 different bullets of 255 to 257 gr. LSWC ( over several weeks.) Now, the question is, do you think I should have the 11 Deg. reamer job? Will it help? The chamber throats are .452 and round. This is with hands rested on sand bags at 28 yds. Measured. The black ring is 5 1/2" diam ( standard 25yd slow fire pistol) I would like a bit better acc. Thank you for any advice.
Fred

 

[Bucks Owin]

That's not all that bad really, and centered nicely... :? Do you have a lot of experience at shooting off the bench?
(It ain't as easy to shoot tight groups as some may think... :wink

FWIW, I greatly respect Veral Smith's opinion and he's not keen on the 11 degree job...Just sayin'

 

[Rclark]

What powders have your tried other than HS-6? Have you loaded up-down in HS-6 say 12.5 to 13g? Sometimes it takes a lot of testing to find the magic combination. I've one .45 Colt that really likes 4227 for example. I just found a 2400 load it likes as well, but all other powders I was dissatisfied with it (yes, even hs-6). Did you have someone else shot it with the same results? I ask this because I know from experience . Just last week I was working on a load that I thought shot fairly well but I've done better. Let a 'professional' shooter pop off some rounds to see what he thought and they were stacked on each other . Ok, it was just me .

As far as forcing cone, as long as you are not getting significant leading in that area you could leave it alone ... although it wouldn't hurt anything if you did... Accuracy gains I think would be minimal (unless again if you are getting a lot of leading in that area). You velocity would go down a few fps is all.

 

[Tellico]

That's not all that bad really, and centered nicely... :? Do you have a lot of experience at shooting off the bench?
(It ain't as easy to shoot tight groups as some may think... :wink

FWIW, I greatly respect Veral Smith's opinion and he's not keen on the 11 degree job...Just sayin'

First, Thank you.
Second, no its not bad but I have had several Rugers in 41 mag, 44 mag, and even 45 colt 4 5/8 that did better.
Third, It could be too much experience! Meaning maybe the 73 yr old eyes.
I still shoot 2" at same distance with my 1911 though and keep 6-7 of 8 on my 18'' gong at a hundred yds.. But I have put a lot of work in it too. All I have done to the BH is 3# trigger and 41 magnums grips. No sense spending the time on the 11 deg. if it won't help that much. I will say it shoots jacketed better, but they are high $$$$.

 

[DGNY]

Not a bad group, but you can do better based on your other experiences. [BTW - good going with the 1911 to get 2" groups!]

A couple thoughts. Are the bullets, say .451-.453? Do you like the grips on the BH or are you always working to get your hold consistent as to hand placement and tightness? Are the cases uniform make/length, the crimps consistent, the primers non-mag? Trigger pull decent?

I have never done an 11* forcing cone, but surely have struggled with BH accuracy in a couple guns. Usually found a good load [i.e., not > 1.5" @25yd], but not always!

All good luck to you.

Dyson [who is 72]

 

[DGNY]

dup

 

[Tellico]

What powders have your tried other than HS-6? Have you loaded up-down in HS-6 say 12.5 to 13g? Sometimes it takes a lot of testing to find the magic combination. I've one .45 Colt that really likes 4227 for example. I just found a 2400 load it likes as well, but all other powders I was dissatisfied with it (yes, even hs-6). Did you have someone else shot it with the same results? I ask this because I know from experience . Just last week I was working on a load that I thought shot fairly well but I've done better. Let a 'professional' shooter pop off some rounds to see what he thought and they were stacked on each other . Ok, it was just me .

As far as forcing cone, as long as you are not getting significant leading in that area you could leave it alone ... although it wouldn't hurt anything if you did... Accuracy gains I think would be minimal (unless again if you are getting a lot of leading in that area). You velocity would go down a few fps is all.

Thank you too R Clark.
One, I won't take the room to list all the powders just the big favorites.
Unique, Power pistol, HS-6, Herco ect.
Second, I go out to shoot at daybreak and there is usually no one there but me. I bet someone could surely do better. I do not wear or need glasses but I do shoot better with yellow lens shooting glasses than clear. I think I would be better off to buy some better sights as the gap on both sides is quite wide for target work. A rear sight with a narrower notch would help. Maybe Oooops- about the up and down. Yes sir, I have on the down side as I want to use this load in my flat top 45 too. Accuracy drops off at 11gr. I test all the promising loads at .5 increments from start load to max and some at .2 when they get real good.

 

[Bucks Owin]

"Third, It could be too much experience! Meaning maybe the 73 yr old eyes".

I hear that! :lol: (And mine are only 57... )

Well, sounds like the trigger operator ain't the problem...
Perhaps a bore lapping might help... :? (Tight spot?)

Good luck at any rate, keep us posted...

 

[DGNY]

Just saw your note that throats uniform .452, which I missed in first read.
Dyson

 

[Tellico]

DGNY

Just sent you a pm as it would not let me quote you for some reason.

 

[Tellico]

May just need to keep shooting it. Some don't settle down for the first 1000 rds.
I know that no one asked, but I weigh each charge when working up a load and I load with an RCBS Rock chucker single stage press. When I get a good load then I use a Little Dandy and I modify a rotor if there is not one thats right on.

 

[Rclark]

Okay, so not a newbie to reloading or shooting Sorry about that! Well, maybe it is just the gun. My .45 Colt BH and and two .45 Colt Flattops shoots pretty much everything ok... But my Vaquero just likes certain loads. Might want to try the 20g of IMR4227 under 250-255g bullet with a magnum primer. Worked for me! (And Taffin liked the load too for picky revolvers). My Vaquero finally will shoot! And the 4227 load shoots well in my other 3 .45 Colt revolvers as well too...

Perhaps a bore lapping might help...

Normally you would some leading especially in the thread area of the barrel if you had a barrel choke point. Ross Seyfield does firelap his as 'routine' ... at least it sounded that way in his article on the Bisley .44Spec.

Good luck in your search!

 

[DGNY]

Just replied to your PM. Gather you have been shooting lead . Possibly a little leading escaped your inspection. But doubt that, given your careful work.

I have once or twice in desperation polished a bbl interior with flitz or similar on a tight patch for maybe 25 back-and-forth strokes; but I don't polish the 1/4 -1/2" just inward of the crown, to avoid belling the muzzle. The fit of the patch will also tell you about any tight spot, such as the bbl/frame joint. Then there is fire lapping, which I have never done; see link for example of that [hope that is OK to do]:
http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/ross-seyfried-lipseys-ruger-flattop-44-special-bisley-revolvers/

You prob have already looked at the crown with a magnifying glass, but, if not, worth a viewing. Any nick can hurt the cause.

Regards,

Dyson

 

[SAJohn]

Tellico, Have you had any trigger work done on that revolver? Those new model factory trigger pulls make good groups just about impossible. I have measured almost 5 pound trigger pulls with lots of creep. It only takes about 1 to 2 hours work to get them down to a crispy 2.25 to 2.5 lb pull, then you can work on loads. Only after all of that do I start thinking about range rods, cone angles, cylinder throats, barrel polishing, etc.

I have posted this photo before but it is proof of what can be done with Ruger single actions and factory sights even with 65 year old eyes:

John

John

 

[Tellico]

Tellico, Have you had any trigger work done on that revolver? Those new model factory trigger pulls make good groups just about impossible. I have measured almost 5 pound trigger pulls with lots of creep. It only takes about 1 to 2 hours work to get them down to a crispy 2.25 to 2.5 lb pull, then you can work on loads. Only after all of that do I start thinking about range rods, cone angles, cylinder throats, barrel polishing, etc.

I have posted this photo before but it is proof of what can be done with Ruger single actions and factory sights even with 65 year old eyes:

John

John

Thanks John. I have the trigger at 3# as I am using the stock hammer spring for less lock time. (still slow on single actions anyway)wish someone made a titanium hammer. It does have a tiny amount of creep which is going away with dry firing and shooting.
How many rounds in that group? At what distance? I don't expect that good, but 2 in 10 shot at 25yds would be fine. People here are really helpful and have given me some ideas.

 

[SAJohn]

That was 5 rounds at 19 yards from an old model .357 which had an action job, shimmed for minimum cylinder play, and a belt mountain cylinder pin installed which resulted in almost perfect cylinder to barrel alignment.

Are you certain no part of your revolver was touching the sand bags?

Have you checked the rear sights for tightness?

I would also use a strong light and eyeball check each cylinder bores alignment with the barrel.

 

[Tellico]

That was 5 rounds at 19 yards from an old model .357 which had an action job, shimmed for minimum cylinder play, and a belt mountain cylinder pin installed which resulted in almost perfect cylinder to barrel alignment.

Are you certain no part of your revolver was touching the sand bags?
Have you checked the rear sights for tightness?
I would also use a strong light and eyeball check each cylinder bores alignment with the barrel.

1 I have .001 end shake.
2 Yes. I have wondered how in the world those pistol rests where the barrel is resting on the front part work?
3 Sight insert can be wiggled a tad but only fore & aft not S/S. Know anyone making an insert with a narrower notch?
4 Good idea! just looked and they appear OK.

I also think I will shoot some groups using only one chamber to eliminate timing. Thanks
Fred

 

[5of7]

After the usual research regarding throat diameters and bullet diameters, I start out with bullets of an appropriate weight for the gun in question and work up a load with a variety of powders that are also appropriate to the gun/cartridge/bullet combo.

Sometimes it comes easy, sometimes not so easy, and sometimes not at all. I shoot seated in a chair but shoot freehand using both hands. When I can get consistent groups under 3" at 25 yards, I start to smile. Sometimes I get 2" groups, but shooting freehand, that is a sometimes thing. All my groups consist of however many rounds the cylinder holds.

Shooting from a sandbag rest requires knowledge of the proper technique and without that mastery of the technique, can result in groups much larger than shooting freehand. I don't shoot off bags because I don't consider it useful, as it does not relate to any other shooting I might do with a revolver.

I do, on occasion shoot seated on the ground with a back rest, knees bent and wrists rested on the knees. That position works for me and when I hunt with a revolver, that is the way I do it.

In my opinion, if a revolver won't shoot into 3" at 25 yds, it needs work--to be performed by a competent gunsmith--which I am not. 8)

 

[Tellico]

I agree with that. What bullet weight do you consider appropriate for the .45 Colt? I was thinking from 255gr to 300 gr. Keith style or the SAA 270gr I'll try next. I do not hunt anymore but may try hog hunting as there are some dandy boars here in TN. If I get this gun to shoot a little better. After living in MT almost half my life I am kind of spoiled to hunt anywhere else. Only my wrists or forearms are on the sandbags not the gun. If I can't get her below 3" I may take her to Hamilton Bowen as he is about 25 miles away.

 

[Rclark]

All my .45Colt shooting is done with either 250g RNFP or 255g SWC (most loads). All I have used to this point. In my way of thinking you are right on with 250-300g for .45 Colt. I have used some 200g TC, but that is in my convertibles .45ACP cylinders.... Not sold on that though and have started some testing with 250g RNFP in .45ACP.

 

[Bucks Owin]

Are you certain no part of your revolver was touching the sand bags?

I rest the barrel (and sometimes the butt!) on a sandbag(s) as a matter of course. Shot my tightest groups that way...

As long as it's the same "method" shot to shot.... :wink:

 

[Bucks Owin]

I agree with that. What bullet weight do you consider appropriate for the .45 Colt? I was thinking from 255gr to 300 gr. Keith style or the SAA 270gr I'll try next. I do not hunt anymore but may try hog hunting as there are some dandy boars here in TN. If I get this gun to shoot a little better. After living in MT almost half my life I am kind of spoiled to hunt anywhere else. Only my wrists or forearms are on the sandbags not the gun. If I can't get her below 3" I may take her to Hamilton Bowen as he is about 25 miles away.

Miha Previk's 270 SAA bullet is a dandy and you'll have three different styles.... :wink:

http://www.mp-molds.com/shopping/pgm-more_information.php?id=11&=SID

 

[5of7]

I agree to the 250 to 300 grainers for the .45 LC because the case is large enough that it is not that compatible with light bullets and fast powders.

I have found the best loads in the .45 to be with 255 grain bullets and powders no faster than Unique or perhaps Universal.

If I were going for really good velocities with that bullet weight, and by really good velocity, I mean 1200 fps or so, I would be using something on the order of 2400/AA9/296/H110 or others of that approximate burning rate.

It just seems to me that in the .45LC, the action starts with 250 grain bullets.

 

[WESHOOT2]

When I'm chasing accuracy I test different brand bullets.

 

[Tellico]

When I'm chasing accuracy I test different brand bullets.

I am on the fourth brand. won,t mention any names but they are all lower price range as I am really ti-- errrr thrifty. That could be a problem too. I will have to spring for some high dollar quality bullets. I do not cast my own. Had a real bad experience as a kid with casting and never went back to it. I was casting fishing sinkers, melting the lead in our coal fired hot water heater and Dad was washing the cement basemant floor. Well I thought it would be neat to pour the lead in his water bucket. I created a super tinsel fairy covering me,Dad and about 1/3 of the basement in lead strings. Once Dad determined I was not hurt then the bad experience started.

 

[44shootist]

Your doing fine, forty rounds is not a lot of shooting you need
PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. try 100 rounds every day for a while you will see great improvements.

 

[Tellico]

Your doing fine, forty rounds is not a lot of shooting you need
PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. try 100 rounds every day for a while you will see great improvements.

Thank you, But.
That is 40 different loads 20 rnds of each= four 5 shot groups for a total of 800 rounds over a couple weeks. I just got my Dec. Guns and Ammo today and what do I find? Steve Gash Article on 45 Colt reloading. He used a Beretta Stampede off sand bags at TEN YARDS!! I don't need better loads, I just need to move my target from 28 to 10 yds.

 

[Bucks Owin]

Your doing fine, forty rounds is not a lot of shooting you need
PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. try 100 rounds every day for a while you will see great improvements.

Thank you, But.
That is 40 different loads 20 rnds of each= four 5 shot groups for a total of 800 rounds over a couple weeks. I just got my Dec. Guns and Ammo today and what do I find? Steve Cash Article on 45 Colt reloading. He used a Beretta Stampede off sand bags at TEN YARDS!! I don't need better loads, I just need to move my target from 28 to 10 yds.

10X to that! 8)

An "accuracy test" at 10 yds might be OK for a derringer... :lol:

JMO, but handgun accuracy tests take place at 25 yds. Always have, always will... :wink:

 

[wildcatter]

I have a 5 1/2" Stainless convertible Bisley, for about 3 months I worked to get a 250 Grain WFNL, I cast to shoot well in the Colt cylinder. The second time out with the ACP cylinder I was shooting 200 SWC's with 5.6 grains of WW-231 into an 1" or a little more, for 12 shots once I got just over 1.5". But I used everything under the sun to try and make the 250 grain shoot. Finally I tried WW-231 again. This thing had the throats opened to .4525", oversize locking base pin, free spin pawl, 2.5# triggerjob with no creep, Bowen rear sight, and narrowed No. 5 front blade with 2 gold bars by David Clements. With my 57 year old eye's, I find the thinner front sight and more light around it in the rear notch helps, mainly sighting into shadows when hunting. I had stopped at 8.5 grains on earlier attempts. Took it up to 9.5 grains and found what I was lookin for 1.5" groups at 25, same with 10.0 grain so I settled on 9.7 with the 250 grain It will do under 1.25" once in a while, little over 1.5" once in a while. I think it's that 57 year old eye thing. When I work up a load on the bench, I don't like to let the but touch anything, I only rest the frame at the trigger gaurd on my sand bags. When I start out, I dry fire a few loads till I have the hold and support I want, if my sights jump off the target when the hammer falls, I know my shots wouldn't be consistent. It seems the older I get the only thing that is consistent is it's harder to do!! Anything!! :lol: But don't get me wrong, I know it beats the he!! out of the alternatives, just hope I'm still on that bench at 73!!!! anyway a pic after a good morning burnin some powder, and one of them good groups. I usually get a group like this and try to put 6 more in it and up ruining it. This one had a flyer the first 6 shots so I put the next 6 on it and was one of my better days. I think I should start callin them flyers, Bob's!!
[/img]

 

[Tellico]

I have a 5 1/2" Stainless convertible Bisley, for about 3 months I worked to get a 250 Grain WFNL, I cast to shoot well in the Colt cylinder. The second time out with the ACP cylinder I was shooting 200 SWC's with 5.6 grains of WW-231 into an 1" or a little more, for 12 shots once I got just over 1.5". But I used everything under the sun to try and make the 250 grain shoot. Finally I tried WW-231 again. This thing had the throats opened to .4525", oversize locking base pin, free spin pawl, 2.5# triggerjob with no creep, Bowen rear sight, and narrowed No. 5 front blade with 2 gold bars by David Clements. With my 57 year old eye's, I find the thinner front sight and more light around it in the rear notch helps, mainly sighting into shadows when hunting. I had stopped at 8.5 grains on earlier attempts. Took it up to 9.5 grains and found what I was lookin for 1.5" groups at 25, same with 10.0 grain so I settled on 9.7 with the 250 grain It will do under 1.25" once in a while, little over 1.5" once in a while. I think it's that 57 year old eye thing. When I work up a load on the bench, I don't like to let the but touch anything, I only rest the frame at the trigger gaurd on my sand bags. When I start out, I dry fire a few loads till I have the hold and support I want, if my sights jump off the target when the hammer falls, I know my shots wouldn't be consistent. It seems the older I get the only thing that is consistent is it's harder to do!! Anything!! :lol: But don't get me wrong, I know it beats the he!! out of the alternatives, just hope I'm still on that bench at 73!!!! anyway a pic after a good morning burnin some powder, and one of them good groups. I usually get a group like this and try to put 6 more in it and up ruining it. This one had a flyer the first 6 shots so I put the next 6 on it and was one of my better days. I think I should start callin them flyers, Bob's!!
[/img]

Thanks wildcatter. That is some fine shooting! Nice gun also! I should try the ACP cyl. just to see if the barrel is good Hmmmm! I think I will try some 231, that is one I don't have. I am also going a little higher with a couple of other powders for a more consistent burn. Within recommended parameters of course. I have discarded the notion of one load for both my Blackhawk and my NM flat top. I will just have to keep them seperate as this gun has shown a preference for loads above 900fps. Also for heavier bullets. If I do find one eventualy, great! I've never liked the gun to be touching the bags but then this situation calls for an open mind and I am going to try that too. Been raining two days but should clear up for Mon. AM.