77/44 ruptured primers

[RJ556]

I made a range trip today to shoot a few rifles. Among them was my 77/44. The loads were hand loads of H-110 powder and 180grain and 240 grain bullets. Both loads were about .5 grain under maximum (according to a couple of reloading manuals. I used Winchester large pistol primers which are supposed to be good for standard and magnum loads. When I cleaned the 77/44, I noticed three spots on the bolt face that would not clean off. I looked at them through magnification and found them to be pits caused by gas cutting. Then I inspected my 20 fired cases with the magnification loop and found three with ruptured primers. The primers were not flattened out very much, but definitely ruptured. I bought the primers no more than a few months ago. I do believe this is the first time that I have used them with H-110 propellent. I will not load any more H-110 loads with these primers. Has anyone else out there had any such occurrences with 44 magnum loads?

 

[mattsbox99]

Are you using the new Winchester primers with the thinner cups? I have only recently seen these, but have not used them.

 

[RJ556]

Matt, that is very possible. As I said, I purchased these primers recently. They are packaged in a dark blue package. Where did you hear about them having a thinner cup? If that is the case, I won't use any more of them in my magnum loads.

 

[four70nitro]

I have loaded thousands of rounds of 44 Mag with H110 and Winchester primers without ever having a single instance as you have described, though I mostly use 300 grain bullets. My current supply of Winchester primers are also from the dark blue package, probably have had them on hand for 3-4 years.

Dave

 

[OldRugerMan]

RJ556, Use Large RIFLE primers and the problem will go away.

 

[RJ556]

OldRugerMan, do you mean Large rifle standard with Magnum level loads (ball powders, like H-110 etc,) or Large rifle Magnum primers with those propellents? Also, will the rifle primers seat just below flush with the case head in 44 mag cases? Also, will the rifle primers make enough difference in pressure to warrant reducing the powder charge? Thanks.

 

[OldRugerMan]

OldRugerMan, do you mean Large rifle standard with Magnum level loads (ball powders, like H-110 etc,) or Large rifle Magnum primers with those propellents? Also, will the rifle primers seat just below flush with the case head in 44 mag cases? Also, will the rifle primers make enough difference in pressure to warrant reducing the powder charge? Thanks.

Sorry, I was thinking of small rifle and pistol primers which are the same dimensions. Large rifle primers are a bit taller and MAY NOT seat to flush with the case head. If fact rifle primers are required in some loads for the 357 Max. Standard rifle primers are hotter than even Magnum pistol primers so backing off the powder charge is a wise idea to start. If I were you I would try CCI 350 primers, which are supposed to be harder. I personaly don't like the Standard or Magnum statement on Winchester primers. To me they are one or the other and it is confusing to me and not noted in the manuals I have. Using rifle primers in the 44 Mag may or may not work for you - I guess depending on which components you are using. i know it has been done.

 

[RJ556]

I used CCI Large Pistol primers before. I thought it would be simpler to stock one primer for std and mag loads. But, now I think I will go back to std and mag CCI primers. I will check out the seating depth of Rifle primers in Pistol cases, just to satisfy my curiosity. Thanks for your input.

 

[mike7mm08]

I have loaded and shot a lot of H110 in 44. Always max loads. I use whatever magnum primer I have and never had a problem.

 

[wwb]

....... I will check out the seating depth of Rifle primers in Pistol cases, just to satisfy my curiosity. ......

Rifle primers are the same diameter as pistol primers, but are "taller" and will stand proud of the case if seated in pistol brass. Not a good thing.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I am shooting 24.0gr of H-110 with 240gr XTP bullets and WLP primers without any problems. Have you looked at your firing pin? CCI, MagTech and Remington primers, especially the magnum primers, should have harder cups. 8) 8)

...Jimbo

 

[RJ556]

Jimbo, it has nothing to do with the firing pin. The ruptures are at the edge of the primer cup, right in the groove formed by the primer cup and the primer pocket of the case. I will try to put up a photo, if the macro on my camera can get a pic of it. I will also post how much the charge was in those loads.

 

[mike7mm08]

Do you do any prep of the primer pockets before loading? Wondering if the primer pocket might be too shallow or there may have been a burr or something. Primer may have been damaged while it was being seated. I always cut the primer pockets with a uniformer before loading the first time. I clean the pockets after each loading. Seems odd to only have a few ruptures and no other pressure signs with those or any of the other rounds.

 

[RJ556]

Mike, I clean my primer pockets each and every time as well as check case length and trim if necessary for crimped loads on every case I reload. I have been hand loading for 45 years now but I know it is possible for anyone to make a mistake. In those 45 years, I've not seen this problem even with very high pressure rifle cartridges.

 

[mike7mm08]

I am beginning to really think this is a QC issue. Primers have been in high demand some issues might get missed. I have reloaded quite a bit as well. I have never encountered a problem like this. You should be seeing other pressure signs along with blown primers. Pressure signs typically show up well before blown primers as well.

Another thing is H110 has been around alot and used extensively by loads and loads of handloaders. There is a ton of well tested load data I doubt there is a published load out there for H110 that will cause pressure problems. Really think something is goofy with the primers. Either something was changed or QC is slipping.

One final thought is your powder dispensing method. I doubt you weigh each charge. Assume you use some type of meter. Any chance it is possible not holding adjustment very well? Maybe it threw a touch extra powder to those cases. Again though why no other pressure signs? Don't think the brand of primer is a problem but maybe some of this particular batch.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

There have been a couple of other threads about leaking primers recently.

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=122822

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=122639

I have found when I clean the primer pockets real well the primers can be a little loose so when I do my case prep I tumble, check the flash holes and then prime without excessive cleaning of the primer pockets. Also some brass will start to show loose pockets after a few heavy loads so watch the number of heavy loads you shoot with your brass. I make it a rule to only shoot 4 max loads with my Federal or Winchester brass. 8) 8)

...Jimbo

 

[RJ556]

That's good advise Jimbo. In my particular case, The gas didn't leak "around" the circumfrence of the primer/case junction, but the rupture was at the 90 degree edge of the cup where it is formed and the side of the cup. Tonight when I am at work and have more time (great job! ) I will post a photo of the cases and you will better be able to see where the rupture is on the cases. I will look at the threads that you posted. Thanks.

 

[RJ556]

OK, this is the best picture I could get of the cases. It is a close as I could get and keep the camera in any kind of focus, but if you look close, you can see the small ruptures. Two of these cases were loaded with 23.5 grains of H-110 over a 240 grain Hornady XTP bullet. Hodgdons website shows 23.0 to 24.0 grains of H-110 as a correct charge. The other case was loaded with 28.5 grains of H-11o over a 180 grain Hornady XTP bullet. The Hodgdon site shows 29.0 to 31.5 grains of H-110 as the proper charge. I hav a couple of reloading manuals that show 28.0 grains as the low end for H-110 using a 180 grain jacketed bullet. I don't see where the amount of the propellent charge I used would cause primer ruptures.

 

[SteelShooter]

The loads you are talking about are what I shoot all the time. Looking at the failure point on the drawn corner of the primer cup, I'd say there may be a metalurgy issue with the batch of metal used to blank the primer cups.

Sugget you call the manufacturer and give them the lot numbers, and tell them the problem.

Be interesting to see what they have to say.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

The loads you are talking about are what I shoot all the time. Looking at the failure point on the drawn corner of the primer cup, I'd say there may be a metalurgy issue with the batch of metal used to blank the primer cups.

Sugget you call the manufacturer and give them the lot numbers, and tell them the problem.

Be interesting to see what they have to say.

+1 Definitely looks like bad batch of primers. Thanks for posting the photos. Everybody should be on the lookout for bad WLP primers if purchased recently. 8) 8)

...Jimbo

 

[RJ556]

One more thing I am going to do is punch the ruptured primers out of the cases. I want to see if the rupture goes all the way down to the edge of the cup. If it does, then I suppose it could be an enlarged primer pocket in the cases, thinking that the gas cutting starts at the edge of the cup and cuts its way outward toward the case head. On the other hand, if the rupture does not extend to the edge of the cup, then I would say it looks like bad primers. I'll remove those primers and report back tomorrow.

 

[RJ556]

After punching out the primers, I can see no where that gas has escaped between the primer and primer pocket. And the rupture is only at the part of the cup where the 90 degree angle is formed. It looks like a case of bad primers to me. They are from lot #DFL717G. If anyone can give me a number for the Olin people, I suppose I'll call them and let them know about this.

 

[63November]

Looks like flawed metal to me also. I would be surprised if they (Olin) don't take care of you. I like Winchester Large Pistol primers because they work very well with either 231 or 296. I think they are hotter than many others, not necessarily any more violent as some magnums perhaps are.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

...They are from lot #DFL717G. If anyone can give me a number for the Olin people, I suppose I'll call them and let them know about this.

Thanks for all the good info. I checked my lot #s, found on the back of individual packs of 100, and I don't have any.

I found this address and phone number for Winchester on their websight under 'privacy'. http://www.winchester.com

Winchester Ammunition
Attn: Web Site Dept.
427 N. Shamrock St.
East Alton, IL 62024
618-258-2000

...Jimbo

 

[J Miller]

RJ556,

I had the exact same thing happen with a batch of Fiocchi LP primers some years ago. Several of my .45 Colts, rifle and revolver now wear gas pitted breach faces because of this.
After I discovered the problem I ended up tossing the rest of the primers in a burn barrel.

I do not know if the primer cups are too hard, too soft or what. In normal .45 Colt loads at 14,000 ± PSI they would develop the pin hole leaks.
However if I loaded them in .45 ACP cases at 19,000 ± PSI they wouldn't do it.

Since they were foreign make I didn't want to mess with them any more. In your case I'd call Winchester and see what they have to say.

Joe

 

[RJ556]

J Miller, thanks for your info. That reinforces my thinking that it is bad primers. I definitely will not use any more of these in my hand loads. I haven't been able to find a phone number or email address for Olin so far, but will look some more.

 

[anachronism]

I see this with 223 brass a lot. It's more likely the brass than the primer. You can try CCI primers, which are reputed to be slightly larger in diameter. Your primer pockets are slightly enlarged, and you're getting gas blowby. Also, how old is your brass?

 

[RJ556]

Negative anachronism. No gas blow by. I removed the primers and inspected the pockets carefully and there is no evidence of blow by. As I said in a previous post, the rupture is at the bend where the cup is formed. If I was getting blow by, the cup would not have ruptured at all or thr cup would be cut where it bottoms out in the case primer pocket.

 

[edfardos]

I can confirm this. I just cracked open a new box of Winchester Large Pistol Primers and made 150 44mag cartridges. I fired 50 of them, and I now have five pits in my Super Redhawk frame, I also found five punctured primers in my brass. So one in ten fail. And I have 100 rounds of ammo to dismantle thanks to Winchester. I also need to dispose of the left over 850 primers since I purchased 1000... any thoughts on how to discard these bad primers?

so having said that, which brand of primer should I switch to? I was thinking CCI possibly? If I switch to CCI are they has hot as the winchester LP primers?

Winchester was a fine company. I hope they're not circling the corporate toilet bowl by cost-cutting. If that's the case, I'm never looking back. Has anyone contacted them yet?

--edfardos

 

[edfardos]

I've made over 1000 of these cartridges using WLP primers, then I opened a new box of WLP's, and one in ten fail. Anyone know how to contact Winchester? Before these primers ruin the bolt faces and frames of our firearms?


--edfardos