77/44 ruptured primers

[RJ556]

One more thing I am going to do is punch the ruptured primers out of the cases. I want to see if the rupture goes all the way down to the edge of the cup. If it does, then I suppose it could be an enlarged primer pocket in the cases, thinking that the gas cutting starts at the edge of the cup and cuts its way outward toward the case head. On the other hand, if the rupture does not extend to the edge of the cup, then I would say it looks like bad primers. I'll remove those primers and report back tomorrow.

 

[RJ556]

After punching out the primers, I can see no where that gas has escaped between the primer and primer pocket. And the rupture is only at the part of the cup where the 90 degree angle is formed. It looks like a case of bad primers to me. They are from lot #DFL717G. If anyone can give me a number for the Olin people, I suppose I'll call them and let them know about this.

 

[63November]

Looks like flawed metal to me also. I would be surprised if they (Olin) don't take care of you. I like Winchester Large Pistol primers because they work very well with either 231 or 296. I think they are hotter than many others, not necessarily any more violent as some magnums perhaps are.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

...They are from lot #DFL717G. If anyone can give me a number for the Olin people, I suppose I'll call them and let them know about this.

Thanks for all the good info. I checked my lot #s, found on the back of individual packs of 100, and I don't have any.

I found this address and phone number for Winchester on their websight under 'privacy'. http://www.winchester.com

Winchester Ammunition
Attn: Web Site Dept.
427 N. Shamrock St.
East Alton, IL 62024
618-258-2000

...Jimbo

 

[J Miller]

RJ556,

I had the exact same thing happen with a batch of Fiocchi LP primers some years ago. Several of my .45 Colts, rifle and revolver now wear gas pitted breach faces because of this.
After I discovered the problem I ended up tossing the rest of the primers in a burn barrel.

I do not know if the primer cups are too hard, too soft or what. In normal .45 Colt loads at 14,000 ± PSI they would develop the pin hole leaks.
However if I loaded them in .45 ACP cases at 19,000 ± PSI they wouldn't do it.

Since they were foreign make I didn't want to mess with them any more. In your case I'd call Winchester and see what they have to say.

Joe

 

[RJ556]

J Miller, thanks for your info. That reinforces my thinking that it is bad primers. I definitely will not use any more of these in my hand loads. I haven't been able to find a phone number or email address for Olin so far, but will look some more.

 

[anachronism]

I see this with 223 brass a lot. It's more likely the brass than the primer. You can try CCI primers, which are reputed to be slightly larger in diameter. Your primer pockets are slightly enlarged, and you're getting gas blowby. Also, how old is your brass?

 

[RJ556]

Negative anachronism. No gas blow by. I removed the primers and inspected the pockets carefully and there is no evidence of blow by. As I said in a previous post, the rupture is at the bend where the cup is formed. If I was getting blow by, the cup would not have ruptured at all or thr cup would be cut where it bottoms out in the case primer pocket.

 

[edfardos]

I can confirm this. I just cracked open a new box of Winchester Large Pistol Primers and made 150 44mag cartridges. I fired 50 of them, and I now have five pits in my Super Redhawk frame, I also found five punctured primers in my brass. So one in ten fail. And I have 100 rounds of ammo to dismantle thanks to Winchester. I also need to dispose of the left over 850 primers since I purchased 1000... any thoughts on how to discard these bad primers?

so having said that, which brand of primer should I switch to? I was thinking CCI possibly? If I switch to CCI are they has hot as the winchester LP primers?

Winchester was a fine company. I hope they're not circling the corporate toilet bowl by cost-cutting. If that's the case, I'm never looking back. Has anyone contacted them yet?

--edfardos

 

[edfardos]

I've made over 1000 of these cartridges using WLP primers, then I opened a new box of WLP's, and one in ten fail. Anyone know how to contact Winchester? Before these primers ruin the bolt faces and frames of our firearms?


--edfardos

 

[edfardos]

Winchester Large pistol primer lot# is DHL788G (pictured above).

 

[RJ556]

edfardos, Thank you for posting to confirm this. Jimbo357 posted an address and phone number for Winchester, a couple of posts above in this thread. If we both call them, it would probably carry a little more weight. I will wait until Tuesday, because they are probably closed tomorrow (Colombus Day). If we can't get in touch with Olin by this number, maybe they can give us a number to get in touch with them. Thanks again for your post.

 

[mattsbox99]

RJ, the 'new' winchesters are a blue package with a white banner that says 'new and improved' or something along those lines. They are the thinner cupped versions.

I've seen gas blowby on shotshells and this is definitely not blowby, it is a defect in the primer.

 

[edfardos]

fwiw, the defective primers I pictured, were in the traditional dark blue packaging, same as the last 1000 I used. This new 1000 has a different lot number, and, of course, they fail at the edge with a pinhole.

My 44mag now has five pinhole pits in the frame, three on top, two on bottom, so if you connected the holes it'd make a W for Winchester!

I noticed my rifle (30-06 also uses winchester large rifle primers) has a pit in it as well (but statistically 1 in 500 failed, since i'm half way thru my box of 1000 WLR primers).

I'd say Winchester is cutting costs by either using less material in their primer cups, to their profit, and our expense. Or they're getting brass with less copper and more zinc (harder, brittle). The failure point looks more like a crack, since the brass isn't stretched or extruded. That would imply hard brass (too much zinc).

So let me ask you guys again, what primers should I use instead of Winchester? I use Federal in my Ruger P94, they're soft, and dent a bit during insertion, but they've never let me down after 2000 reloads. I was also thinking of CCI. Are federal and CCI large pistol primers drop-in replacements for WinchesterLP's? Should I get magnum versions for the 44mag and H110?

240grain + 23.4H110 + _____primer = good 44mag load?
150grain + 57.0H4350+ _____primer = good 30-06 load?


(for values of primer not equal to Winchester)


thanks!
-edfardos

 

[Jimbo357mag]

So let me ask you guys again, what primers should I use instead of Winchester? I use Federal in my Ruger P94, they're soft, and dent a bit during insertion, but they've never let me down after 2000 reloads. I was also thinking of CCI. Are federal and CCI large pistol primers drop-in replacements for WinchesterLP's? Should I get magnum versions for the 44mag and H110?

240grain + 23.4H110 + _____primer = good 44mag load?
150grain + 57.0H4350+ _____primer = good 30-06 load?


(for values of primer not equal to Winchester)

A topic from way-back.
http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9793&sid=f8b11b1b9d688a6960c9c87a3fa5bf4b

...Jimbo

 

[edfardos]

So I was doing more research on this, and found at least three more examples of this type of failure. The one thing they all had in common was a WLP primer and an RP (remington) brass! I went and looked at my failed brass, and sure enough, all of them were RP brass. I shoot mixed headstamps, so this is more than a coincidence imho. If you compare the RP brass to, say, winchester brass, you'll notice there's much less support around the failure point.

So my conclusion is that we're looking at two tolerances which added up and caused a failure. New thin/brittle WLP primers combined with RP brass which makes the situation worse. I still assert that the new-to-me WLP primers are part of the cause since I fired 1000 of them with mixed headstamps and never saw the problem until I got a new box of WLP's and 1-in-10 failed, specifically when used with RP brass.

I'm going to dismantle anything with RP brass and these new WLP primers, and shoot the rest. If there are no pits, then I think we have emperical evidence of this theory.

Oh, and I will certainly switch to CCI (magnum) primers (thanks Jimbo), since i have a lot of RP brass.

--edfardos

 

[RJ556]

I would suggest CCI primers. I used to use them exclusively and NEVER had a failure with them. That is what I am going to do. Edfardos, I think you may be on to something about the Remington brass in conjunction with the WLP primers. The ruptured primers, when viewed from the side have a bit of a "Chef's hat" shape to them. Which means there is not much support of the cup close to the bolt head. Over the years, I have used mostly Remington brass and never had a primer failure until I started using the WLP primers. I'll definitely be going back to the CCI primers.

 

[mattsbox99]

Interesting observation. I primarily use Remington primers for my handgun and rifle loads and Fiocchi primers in my shotshell loads. I've used Federal, CCI, and Winchester primers in the past with no issues.

 

[edfardos]

That's great info RJ556 - thank you. I've been looking over my old brass, which is comprised of 15% RP brass. I used WLP exclusively in that brass, and never saw a failure (500 shots in this sample space). It wasn't until I got a new box of WLP primers, shot 50 rounds, then I noticed the problem for the first time (pits on the recoil plate of the gun). This statistic also supports my "one-in-ten" observation, since about one in ten of my brass is RP/Remington.

So are you going to chuck your RP brass, or are you satisfied that switching to CCI will solve the problem? (i think it will). Let us know after you fire some CCI primed RP brass - thanks!

--edfardos

 

[RJ556]

I've got a lot of RP brass, I'll just switch primers. To me it is a primer problem.